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Casing lippy table tops on my Session.

Discussion in 'Downhill & Freeride' started by Drth Vadr, Jul 23, 2013.

  1. Drth Vadr

    Drth Vadr Monkey

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    I know it's propably just me, but I case all the table tops on my Session. I seem to can't get the rear to pop and it dies at the apex leaving me to have to dramaticly push down on the front. Come to think of it, even when I compress the front into small jumps that I'm trying to squash the front kind of sails and the ass feels dead. I'm pretty close to factory setting for rear suspension -25lbs in the piggy back off the recommended 160lbs. I changed that due to not being able to get the front to match to rear at 160lb. Is the longer CS playing a part? Do I need to speed up my rebound? or could I just be my body position is just wrong?:wtf:
     

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  2. 'size

    'size Turbo Monkey

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    trade it for an evil...
     
  3. Da Peach

    Da Peach Outwitted by a rodent

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    Try it now!
     
  4. bobsten

    bobsten Monkey

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    find a cliff and try popping off of it!
     
  5. WestCoastHucker

    WestCoastHucker Turbo Monkey

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    because you are going too slow...
     
  6. FarkinRyan

    FarkinRyan Monkey

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    If you're consistently getting bucked nose-high on a range of jumps then inconsistency between your front and rear rebound settings can definitely be a part of the problem. It's not even necessarily that you have the rear rebound set too slow as an absolute, but rather that it's set too slow relative to the front. Session a jump, change things one click at a time until the bike is taking off in a predictable and controlled manner.

    If you're casing jumps all the time, it's because you're riding too slow though if the bike is performing in an unpredictable way it's no surprise that you're not confident booking into jumps at top speed.
     
  7. Nick

    Nick My name is Nick

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    :stupid:

    Seriously though, this is likely the problem.
     
  8. marshalolson

    marshalolson Turbo Monkey

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    you could also be running too soft of a fork, and you are blowing thru the travel off the lip
     
  9. WestCoastHucker

    WestCoastHucker Turbo Monkey

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    that's normal though. that's why you preload the suspension instead of letting the jump compress your suspension...
     
  10. marshalolson

    marshalolson Turbo Monkey

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    but if you are under-sprung... well, your fork will knife thru its travel more, regardless.

    just saying something to double check. if you are at 30%, try setting the sag to 25 or 27% and see if it helps.
     
  11. boylagz

    boylagz Monkey

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    How big are these tables you speak of?
     
  12. cecil

    cecil Turbo Monkey

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    When you think your going fast enough.......go faster.....
     
  13. NwRider

    NwRider Chimp

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    Nah dude its definitely the bike. I think he should try a larger frame, could be part of the issue. And do you have jumps at home to practice or is the performance issue only when you travel elsewhere?
     
  14. William42

    William42 fork ways

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    I donno, I'm 6'1"-6'2" and I was on a medium, and I never had ANY problems getting that bike to jump perfectly, jumping is definitely a strong suit of that frame....
     
  15. Tomasz

    Tomasz Monkey

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    Try riding gloveless. Or brakeless.
     
  16. Udi

    Udi RM Chief Ornithologist: “I Brake for Birds”

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    In my experience there are 3 big things that will reduce how much pop you get, when it comes to suspension setup:

    1. Too much compression damping. Damping absorbs energy, and as more of your preloading energy is dissipated via compression damping, less will go into compressing the spring that will store and return it to you as you leave the lip.
    2. Too much rebound damping - as above, except now the energy you've stored in the spring is dissipated on the return stroke instead of assisting you as you leave the ground.
    3. Spring rates that are too low. Generally bikes sprung too soft will have a tendency to feel less lively, and require more compression damping to maintain stability - which brings you back to number one.

    Of course that doesn't mean back off all the damping, and the regular rules still apply (eg. having the rear rebound slightly slower than the front to prevent bucking, like Ryan suggested) - however increasing spring rates slightly and reducing damping a little might give you the change you're looking for. Don't forget that both ends of the bike have an influence.
     
  17. manhattanprjkt83

    manhattanprjkt83 Rusty Trombone

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    this.
     
  18. Sandwich

    Sandwich Pig my fish!
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    Firmer spring in the fork, faster rebound in the rear (balanced to the fork) and easing up on compression slightly helped get rid of bucking on my ride. I still want to try a firmer fork spring but I've been lazy. It's really fun having a range of adjustments because you can get a feel for what turning dials way wrong feels like!

    After that, it's speed and form. I just need to be confident that I'm not going to go OTB before I start adding MPH.
     
  19. Tomasis

    Tomasis Monkey

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    Strong rebound and weak comp work good for me. At least in air shock. Also if bottom out feature is included either in frame or shock.

    Having right/stronger spring is one of keys as Udi suggested. So you don't have deal with too much compression inside shaft.

    it remains to find right rebound once spring choice is dialed.


    P.S. Dont forget check out air pressure.
     
    #19 -   Jul 24, 2013
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2013
  20. Huck Banzai

    Huck Banzai Turbo Monkey

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    So I was asking around recently about some bucking, or rather - front end staying down - when I hit some jumps, and the front generally feels like it 'wants' to stay down, and is not easy to yank up onto the back wheel.

    This is on my 11 v10c; When swapped to 8.5" mode, this is lessened A LOT, but I find that when I hit some jumps (the lippier the worse) I feel like I have to yank on the front end to get it up where I could flow/bounce over jumps on my VPF or Bullit.

    Caveats: I am definitely tentative and not anywhere near as confident as in the past; not ina major pussy way, but signigficant; 2 years off for 2 consecutive shoulder repairs will sometimes do that...

    Im currently 228 with a FIRM 888 Spring and an Ava cart in front, and a 500# on a Vivid R2C(Pushed) for 10" and a Vivid R2C Air (stock) for 8.5. (have to double check PSI, thinking it's about 230 right now)

    Im middle pack Cat 1 when I'm on, I'm out of shape, scared, and running behind the Cat 3 pack currently. (I can destroy sections, but no endurance for more than short blasts)

    That last part is moot.


    Help.
     
    #20 -   Jul 24, 2013
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2013
  21. cecil

    cecil Turbo Monkey

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    Is it just me or are the lippy jumps more bmx/dirt jump type jumps

    I like the floater lofty jumps more than lippy jumps, you can hit them at any speed
     
  22. kidwoo

    kidwoo Celebrating No-Pants Day

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    Don't ride tabletops.

    You'll only fvck up once. And the second time.....it won't be a bike adjustment.
     
  23. Sonic Reducer

    Sonic Reducer Monkey

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    +1
    play around with the knobs and dials, test it out and use some common sense. hit the same jump over and over again making small adjustments and thinking about what is happening. could increase tire pressure and spring rate too which will make the bike more responsive overall on takeoffs.
     
    #23 -   Jul 25, 2013
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2013
  24. William42

    William42 fork ways

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    This man speaks the truth.
     
  25. Huck Banzai

    Huck Banzai Turbo Monkey

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    I cannot make sense of this; it may BE because I'm dumb, or simply be that I have no clue....


    EDIT: Added a word, removed a word, and threw in an ' for good measure.
     
    #25 -   Jul 25, 2013
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2013
  26. Drth Vadr

    Drth Vadr Monkey

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    Well my spring rate is correct, fork has a firm spring, and sag is 27-28%. I thought it was speed so I went faster. After catching my nut sack a couple of times apprehension set in. To answer some question posted earlier; to me the lip is more reminiscent to a DJ with a straight up straight down trajectory.
     
  27. Gary

    Gary "S" is for "neo-luddite"

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    "I cannot make sense of this; it may because Im dumb, or simply be that I have no clue.... "
    ;)
     
  28. Tomasis

    Tomasis Monkey

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    Gary speaks the truth!
     
  29. MinorThreat

    MinorThreat Turbo Monkey

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    1) Go to Whistler.

    2) Ride Crabapple Hits three or four times fast.

    3) Go back to A-Line.

    Guarantee you'll clear every table to flat beyond.
     
    #29 -   Jul 25, 2013
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2013
  30. Huck Banzai

    Huck Banzai Turbo Monkey

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    It's mostly because the source didn't make sense (except to the secret handshake club) but otherwise Gary is on the right track.

    And snippy/snide comments are always welcome, but including some actual useful information to backup your smartypants would be, umm, more useful.
     
    #30 -   Jul 25, 2013
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2013
  31. William42

    William42 fork ways

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    riding tabletops will make you jump poorly. Ride doubles and you will get your sh1t together real quick.
     
  32. kidwoo

    kidwoo Celebrating No-Pants Day

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    ^That.

    All I meant was that you can ride table tops all day long and not figure out a damn thing. They're hard to judge because unless you're riding down into them from above, there's a big wide lip blocking the back of the landing, the landings themselves get rounded off on the knuckle and just get kind of vague.

    With most doubles (except for downhill ones with blind lips) you have a very good mental picture of where that landing is. If you come up short, you'll pop, roll in faster......whatever to avoid doing that again. Which is what I meant by the second time not being a bike adjustment.

    I roll down jump lines for the first time (meaning doubles, not tables) all the time on hardtails and big squishy bikes and most of the time if there are lines of sight to the landings I can milk or scrub speed enough to put myself in the right spot. My first time down table lines like dirt merchant with taller lips I'm casing and overshooting all over the place because I can't see shlt. And half the time sweet spots are farther than what a rounded off knuckle would have you believe. But there's a lot more you can do with yourself before being convinced it's your bike that needs changing. If I screw up a jump I go look at the jump and the run in, not run to the bike shop.
     
    #32 -   Jul 29, 2013
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2013
  33. Huck Banzai

    Huck Banzai Turbo Monkey

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    Reading comprehension! At least where Im concerned, the table/double is moot; I cant get the ******* front end to pop. I have plenty of clues and its still happening; don't have this problem on my HT or trail bike.

    DingDoingHoolooooooo

    Sheesh.
     
  34. OGRipper

    OGRipper Turbo Monkey

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    Huck, this sounds like front/rear suspension balance to me. It can be hard to figure out if the rear end is popping back too fast or if the front is too slow. Either way it spells E-N-D-O, right?

    Assuming your spring rates are correct, the classic fix for bucking is to slow down your rear rebound rate (i.e., more rear rebound damping). If you've already tried that, you might try speeding up your fork's rebound (less damping). If that doesn't work, you might need a firmer fork spring. At 228 you could probably go to x-firm, no?
     
  35. Huck Banzai

    Huck Banzai Turbo Monkey

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    YAY! ATTENTION! ;)

    I had been on that track, but Im defintiely a mental case; When I ordered the Ava cart, Craig insisted that an XFirm was for 275lbs plus, so I heeded his advice. Maybe (!) Im just imbalanced or maybe he;s wrong (Noooo).

    I am doing a full tear down/rebuild now - maybe Ill swap in the 7.7 and see how that feels. I am riding like a huge pansy (~75% of my previous pansy level) but I have bottomed the fork hard a few times, when with the 7.7 (granted I was ~20lbs heavier when running it) only bottomed on rare occasion. I'll throw an o ring on the stanchion too.

    Anybody ~225 running a v10c? what springs u be usin?
     
    #35 -   Jul 29, 2013
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2013
  36. OGRipper

    OGRipper Turbo Monkey

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    I can't speak from experience about the Avy Cart, but generally the correct spring should be determined independently from damping. In any case, check the 888 thread for thoughts on the spring weight for your size. You also might first try adding oil to your fork to get a little more progression.
     
  37. Sandwich

    Sandwich Pig my fish!
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    it sounds like you should be on an x-firm, or a firm with TONS of ramp.
     
  38. Inclag

    Inclag Turbo Monkey

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    Have an Avy cart myself and I'm finding that I need to deviate a good bit from the initial base setting that was provided in order to balance out my bike especially in the air. From baseline I've decreased compression damping by 4 clicks and decreased rebound damping by 2 clicks. Also had Avalanche mod my Fox shock as well and am finding that I need to make a number of adjustments from baseline to the rear damper to get everything balanced. Having Avalanche front and rear dampers has been a huge improvement over stock, but their base settings seem to be damped pretty heavily. Try opening the valving up so that the spring is doing a bit more of the work.
     
  39. Sandwich

    Sandwich Pig my fish!
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    he does exist!
     
  40. jonKranked

    jonKranked Press Button, Receive Stupid

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