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CCDB notes

Steve M

Turbo Monkey
Mar 3, 2007
1,994
23
Whistler
Since a few of you have been keen to hear my thoughts on the CCDB as compared to the BOS, here we go...

Installed the CCDB a couple of weeks ago, have a few good rides under it now, fairly happy with the setup. Specs and setup are included so any other CCDB owners can get some idea of the setup I'm running. This isn't a full comprehensive review, but I have a fair idea of how the thing goes now, and I'll update this as I learn more.

Bike: Banshee Legend
Average leverage ratio: 2.83:1
Leverage rate curve: slightly progressive to linear
Rider weight: 93kg/205lbs
Spring rate: 350lb/in (same as I ran on the BOS)

Current setup:
LSC: 8 clicks in from full out
HSC: 1.25 turns in
LSR: 3 clicks in
HSR: 1.875 turns in

Installing the CCDB is a pain in the arse because of the spherical bearings/o-rings that the spacers sit against, but once you work out how to do it you stop flinging whatever's within arm's reach at the walls and get it in there without too much drama. The spherical bearings and the sealing o-rings are cool, they mean you can't side-load the shock. Again not quite as frictionless as the needle bearings in the BOS but still a step up from standard DU bushes. Not sure if these things are meant to be greased from time to time, anyone know?

The CCDB feels a bit different to the BOS in the carpark, it feels like it has more compression at the very low speeds, and while it feels smooth and a tad less sticky than a DHX, it doesn't have that "holy crap that's insane" feeling of smoothness/complete lack of stiction that the BOS does.

Setup is both complicated and simplified compared to the likes of DHXes cos the shock feels wack in the carpark and it's hard to get an idea of a good baseline setting until it's on a trail. With a DHX you can get some idea of how it'll go on a trail based on its carpark feel, because you only have one rebound adjuster and effectively one compression adjustment (both propedal and air pressure do much the same thing - proven with dyno testing). With the CCDB, even with both compression adjusters backed right off, it still feels like it has quite a bit of LSC in the carpark, yet as soon as you actually ride it like that you can feel it opening right up and dumping the bike through its travel very easily (at least, at my weight you can - lighter guys may not notice this).

The reason I say setup is simplified in a way compared to a DHX is precisely because you can only rely on actual riding of the thing to set it up (which is what should be done with any shock really, but carpark testing does tend to influence most people's setup IMO). Only once you get it on the trail do you notice whether the thing feels dead, or kicks off lips, or blows through travel or whatever, cos in the carpark it just feels dead no matter what your setup is.

What complicates things, especially if you're not a tech nerd who knows a fair bit about suspension (dare I suggest such a thing on the internet? haha) is actually working out what the adjustments affect ride-wise. Also, the idea that all the adjustments are completely independent is BS, for example you definitely notice that LSC is affected by the HSC settings when the HSC is set very lightly. Not that this is a surprise of course, it's just the pesky real world interfering with idealistic marketing as per usual. The adjustments are definitely MORE independent than say the compression adjustments (propedal and air pressure) in a DHX, but naturally there is some overlap in the effects.

I found it more difficult with the CCDB to get it to remain lively without blowing through travel or kicking, than I did with the BOS. I think the BOS's initial tune (which is set up for your leverage rate etc) and comparatively small adjustment range get you a good baseline setting with no work from the rider, that the CCDB makes the tuner work for. Whereas it's next to impossible to mess up the BOS's settings badly, there is a fair bit more potential for it with the CCDB. If you don’t know what you’re doing, or what to look for, you may not get the CCDB working to its full potential.

Speaking of which, I think the full potential of the CCDB does come fairly close to the BOS – after a few days of tinkering, I did manage to get it feeling pretty similar (though not quite as sensitive on the super small stuff) to how the BOS was out of the box. On-trail setup of the CCDB is much more convenient than the BOS cos they give you this cool little tool to do it with (whereas the BOS requires a screwdriver and a socket or spanner), which I have to say I really love and will probably never ride without even when I’m completely set on my settings.

The compression tuning of the CCDB feels a bit different to the BOS, as I mentioned before it seems to have a bit more compression at very low speeds, and I found that unlike the BOS, cranking up the LSC too much did deaden it quite a bit, to the point where I was having difficulty jumping the thing. At 7 clicks in, it didn’t have quite enough LSC, at 9 it didn’t want to jump very well, so I settled on 8 which seemed to work quite well. I was surprised at how much of a difference a single click makes, and ended up using the HSC adjuster a bit more. Without dyno testing back to back, I’d say using a bit less LSC and a bit more HSC (in terms of wound-on adjustments) on the CCDB did give a feeling more like the strong mid-range damping that the BOS has.

The dual rebound adjusters are pretty cool too, though I can absolutely see how you could completely root your rebound setup by misusing these. I found it worked quite well to set the LSR reasonably quick and use the HSR adjustment to control how the bike reacted off sharp lips and bigger hits, basically just balancing the bike out. This is a similar approach to how BOS seem to have set their rebound adjustments up, but is something I had only specifically considered trying with the CCDB because it seemed to work so well with the BOS.

Cane Creek do give you some pretty good instructions in their manual, as well as explanations of how everything works, which is pretty cool. The setup instructions are better than most but there is still room for improvement – letting people know what the issues with excessive LSC are, for example, would be good. Again though, better than the instructions that Fox, RS etc give you for setup.

As for comparisons to a DHX, I’d say the CCDB is more polished and lets you control your setup more precisely, but it also gives you plenty of options to set stuff up pretty badly (in fairness, you can set up a DHX like absolute crap too), which is IMO where the BOS wins out. I think between my own best efforts setting up the DHX (no custom valving or whatever) and the CCDB, there isn’t that big a difference in on the track really (again, not night and day, but the BOS wasn’t that hugely different either). Small advantages here and there, but straight-lining through rough stuff, or as far as additional traction goes, there’s not a whole lot in it. The CCDB can be set up better than the DHX in the sense that you can use the damping more without deadening the ride as much (or making it excessively harsh like slowing down DHX rebound/cranking the compression too much can do) but the BOS is a bit better again in that regard.

So far I haven’t managed to get the thing to spike/hydro-lock like a few guys said have happened to them (eg William42?), maybe because I have the new tune in the DB, I’m not actually sure. I have ridden it on some very rough, high speed stuff so I’m fairly confident that it’s not doing anything weird.

Opinion at the moment: great shock. I think it does have some advantages over a DHX, and if you know what you’re doing you can get it pretty damn close to the BOS. In fairness, the BOS is tuned to your bike from the factory, whereas the CCDB is more like one-size-fits-all with the wide ranges of adjustment. Right now I reckon the BOS edges it out with slightly better sensitivity/less friction, a bit livelier feel and a more foolproof setup (though less convenient to make changes cos you need tools to do it, as compared to the nifty little Cane Creek thing they give you), but I think you’d be very hard pressed to find anyone who was unhappy with either shock once properly setup (possible exception being people with low-leverage ratio bikes not liking the CCDB). I’m not about to sell the CCDB to buy a BOS, and if I owned a BOS I wouldn’t be trying to swap either. As always, the differences ARE the small details, anyone upgrading from a Vivid/DHX to a BOS/CCDB/whatever should be well aware of that. Depending on your perception of the situation, these small details might be a big deal, that's a call that you'll have to make for yourself.

May update this later on if I find some magical setting that gives me a magic-carpet ride as well as no perceptible movement in any situation, and also delivers me half a dozen llamas that lactate ice-cold wheat beer, but I’m pretty sure to get that extra 200% performance, you really need an Avalanche :)

P.S. to the trolls, you know who you are, please don't wreck this thread like you did the last one. If you don't have something constructive or relevant to say, pipe down.
 
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dropmachine

Turbo Monkey
Sep 7, 2001
2,923
10
Your face.
Great stuff. Very detailed. Needs pics though. :)

I'm actually curious here, but have you had a chance to try out an Avy? I'd like to actually hear your thoughts comparing all three. I'd also like to know how a Pushed DHX fits into the whole mess.
 

Steve M

Turbo Monkey
Mar 3, 2007
1,994
23
Whistler
Great stuff. Very detailed. Needs pics though. :)

I'm actually curious here, but have you had a chance to try out an Avy? I'd like to actually hear your thoughts comparing all three. I'd also like to know how a Pushed DHX fits into the whole mess.
Only one, did one run on it, it was valved for someone close to my weight, but it was on a bike I didn't like and didn't really suit my setup preferences. If someone wants to send me one to review properly they're more than welcome to... same goes for a DHX.

As for pics, it's a freakin shock, you know what it looks like!
 

Bicyclist

Turbo Monkey
Apr 4, 2004
10,157
1
SB
Very good review. Your observations are pretty much consistent with mine regarding the DB, and your setup process is pretty much dead-on with what I did too. It definitely takes some trail-side tuning to get right, but once you've got it set up there's not too much you have to tinker with.
 

buckoW

Turbo Monkey
Mar 1, 2007
1,739
641
Champery, Switzerland
Thanks Socket

Very interesting and well written. I agree it would be cool to hear your thoughts on an AVY and a tuned DHX. You want to come test mine next summer in the alps? I could find you a cheap place to stay and free lift tickets if you write an article.

Are people not so excited about the Vivid anymore?

thx for your thoughts, i'll propably go now with a push tuning for my dhx, can't justify the additional costs if there's only a small performance gain
Hey Sethimus

Sending your shock to Suspension Center in Switzerland is probably easier/cheaper than sending to the US. I have good results with the DHX chassis and some tuning.
 

Pslide

Turbo Monkey
Socket, that's a god-send. I was just about to start the fettling process with the CCDB on my Legend. (Been having too much fun up to now...) Have been running the CCDB on stock settings and am getting some harshness on medium hits, so time to back off the compression. You've given me a great reference point. Cheers!

PS - Also probably the best review I've read of the BOS as well...
 

broke(n)

Chimp
Mar 20, 2007
17
0
I'm curious as to what you mean by 'dead feeling'? You mentioned as a negative in your BOS write up as well. I would have thought that the ultimate goal of a good shock absorber was to absorb the shocks (and consequently feeling dead) rather than 'popping' you off jump lips...

Also how would your describe your riding style/level? Rough/smooth? Expert/Elite level speed?

Anyways nice to see some sort analysis of these high level products...
 

Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist: “I Brake for Birds”
Mar 14, 2005
4,842
1,037
It's a difficult line to tread - having a well damped shock absorber means the ride is generally on the dead side, making it difficult to gap obstacles and pop off things. I've done back to back runs on light vs. heavier damped setups (on the same bike) and the lighter damping is more fun to ride and allows you to gap/clear things more easily (which can indeed be beneficial: less body input to clear stuff).. but the heavier damping seems to result in consistently faster times.

Ideally you want suspension that will let you run a fair amount of (for example low speed compression) damping to allow for more chassis stability and predictability, without making the ride feel excessively dead. There is obviously some tradeoff, but a good tuner can minimise this to some extent.
 

buckoW

Turbo Monkey
Mar 1, 2007
1,739
641
Champery, Switzerland
I too have played with dead or lively setups. I am getting closer to a good middle ground but am starting to feel/understand the benefits of each style of setup. A very dead setup helps me plow through stuff and aids when I am going almost too fast for my level of riding. If I have to do a big bunnyhop to take a different line it is almost too much work to get the bike off the ground however, with that same setup I feel like it pops off jumps better because it didn't use much travel and directed the energy into popping and not absorbing the lip. I am starting to feel like 2 shocks with completely different setups could be cool for when I feel like playing or charging. When a rally car lands with little to no chassis movement that would be a good example of a dead setup. Not so comfortable but definitely fast.
 

Steve M

Turbo Monkey
Mar 3, 2007
1,994
23
Whistler
Socket, that's a god-send. I was just about to start the fettling process with the CCDB on my Legend. (Been having too much fun up to now...) Have been running the CCDB on stock settings and am getting some harshness on medium hits, so time to back off the compression. You've given me a great reference point. Cheers!

PS - Also probably the best review I've read of the BOS as well...
Cheers mate.

I'm curious as to what you mean by 'dead feeling'? You mentioned as a negative in your BOS write up as well. I would have thought that the ultimate goal of a good shock absorber was to absorb the shocks (and consequently feeling dead) rather than 'popping' you off jump lips...

Also how would your describe your riding style/level? Rough/smooth? Expert/Elite level speed?

Anyways nice to see some sort analysis of these high level products...
Yeah as Ben (buckow) said, there is a difference between how and when you ride lively and dead setups. Dead is great when you're bashing stuff at stupid speed, lively is much more fun and good when the trail involves jumping/hopping stuff. The way I had my last bike set up was better than anything else I've ever ridden when it came to bashing through stuff at high speed, it was a mega plow setup but it was nearly impossible to unsettle too. The downside was that the thing just didn't jump or hop, it was much more difficult to gap sections of trail and whatnot.

Riding style - rough and a bit plowy, but not ragged. Mid-pack elite speed.

I too have played with dead or lively setups. I am getting closer to a good middle ground but am starting to feel/understand the benefits of each style of setup. A very dead setup helps me plow through stuff and aids when I am going almost too fast for my level of riding. If I have to do a big bunnyhop to take a different line it is almost too much work to get the bike off the ground however, with that same setup I feel like it pops off jumps better because it didn't use much travel and directed the energy into popping and not absorbing the lip. I am starting to feel like 2 shocks with completely different setups could be cool for when I feel like playing or charging. When a rally car lands with little to no chassis movement that would be a good example of a dead setup. Not so comfortable but definitely fast.
100% agreed there, no ifs or buts, what you said is dead on.
 

EM-EFER

Monkey
May 29, 2007
311
0
At race speeds, the LSC and LSR don't mean anything in the grand scheme of things on the CCDB.

We hooked up a shock tune to my bike and the shock didn't use an ounce of LSC or LSR while racing. The HSR and HSC were the only adjustments that would influence the shock while at those speeds.
 

Steve M

Turbo Monkey
Mar 3, 2007
1,994
23
Whistler
Thanks Socket

Very interesting and well written. I agree it would be cool to hear your thoughts on an AVY and a tuned DHX. You want to come test mine next summer in the alps? I could find you a cheap place to stay and free lift tickets if you write an article.
haha... are you ****ting me? I'M ****ING THERE!

Am actually planning to go to Canada in June (can push that back a bit), but I could stop by in Switzerland for a little while on the way there I'm sure... very keen to see if I can survive the Champery WC course!
 

Steve M

Turbo Monkey
Mar 3, 2007
1,994
23
Whistler
At race speeds, the LSC and LSR don't mean anything in the grand scheme of things on the CCDB.

We hooked up a shock tune to my bike and the shock didn't use an ounce of LSC or LSR while racing. The HSR and HSC were the only adjustments that would influence the shock while at those speeds.
What do you mean you "hooked up a shock tune" to your bike? Position sensitive data acquisition equipment? Mind if I ask the specs? Sample rate, measuring what exactly, and where did you get the equipment?

Besides that, every single movement in either direction, of any damper, passes through the low-speed stage at both the beginning and end of the movement. Most movements end up with a portion that would be above the high speed "threshold" speed, but it has to be a seriously hard hit before low speed compression damping is insignificant, and due to the limited force, sprung-return nature of rebound, it is physically impossible for any rebound stroke not to be affected by low speed settings (unless the low/high speed threshold is like 5mm/s or something silly, which it isn't cos I've seen the low-speed damper curves). There are always low-speed inputs too, from pedaling to cornering to g-outs. These can reach peak speeds above the HS threshold but they are dominated by the low speed curves.

I consider myself to be able to ride at a reasonable pace - I'm not Sam Hill but not a complete hack either - and I have noticed significant differences in the ride with even one or two clicks of compression (be it LSC on the BOS and CCDB or Propedal on a DHX).

So basically, I demand hard evidence or clarification, otherwise I will completely disagree with what you've said :)
 
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General Lee

Turbo Monkey
Oct 16, 2003
2,867
0
The 802
At race speeds, the LSC and LSR don't mean anything in the grand scheme of things on the CCDB.

We hooked up a shock tune to my bike and the shock didn't use an ounce of LSC or LSR while racing. The HSR and HSC were the only adjustments that would influence the shock while at those speeds.
Do explain? All things being relative, i would think you shock would be tuned to reflect your speed. also, i'm unclear as to what you mean by 'race speed?' race courses have fast sections, and race courses have slow sections. i can play around on my bike at the local trails and go faster than when i'm racing. race tracks and trails come in all shapes, sizes, and speeds so the term doesn't really mean much. And i'm not sure i buy the notion that lsc and lsr aren't used at all, racing or otherwise. they are based on shock shaft speed, not on actual bike speed. I'm certainly not the world's fastest racer (more like average speed pro who's not getting any younger or faster) but I can definitely notice changes to my lsc and lsr settings on a race track, so clearly they are doing something.

Socket, good review. i secon the fact the ccdb feels odd in the parking lot, but its been my experience that this is the case with many shocks that work well on the trail under aggressive riding.

[edit] socket beat my to the first question
 
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Sunday_MikeG

Chimp
Jul 1, 2008
12
0
Great review!

I find most os the poins you say are correct, however, I happen to be a CCDB user on a low leverage ratio bike (Iron Horse Sunday), and I have tried a BOS (not on my bike). I think that an important thing to mention about the BOS is that it's a shock made for racing only. BOS's concept of shock and fork functionality is to have a hard high speed compression in order to make the bike not lose speed over bumps. The BOS cartridges that they no longer fabricate were insane. You had to really recieve a hard impact on the fork for it to actually compress, otherwise it would remain uncompressed giving better pedal eficiency and carry better speed over bumps. As you can see, their philosophy is to sacrifice comfort&control over "not losing speed". Once I tried a BOSed Intense M6, just lifted the rear wheel off the grond to then push it against the ground to see how the rear end fealt, and I was surprised about how the HSC was locking it up.

The CCDB on the other hand, is as you say, a more commercial shock, designed to that everybody will like it - "one-size-fits-all". However, its no where near a DHX, or a Vivid, or any other "normal" shock. The range of adjustments is incredible. In my opinion, Cane Creek is a great company, they have always replied my e-mails and I have gotten a lot of tips from Josh and Malcolm from CC, however, I think their "commercial" approach of selling the CCDB like fresh baked cookies is wrong. CC doesn't offer custom valving for specific bikes (Sundays DEFINATELY need them, as OEM shock have custom settings for these bikes) which is a great shame, and they only thing they "customize" while building the shock for you is the pressure of notrogen in the piggy back and the spring rate according to your weight.

When I got my CCDB, i fealt it didnt come with the best possible "feeling" to it. Rebound was too slow for a Sunday, and LSC could be lighter and more sensitive. I changed to a lower spring rate and fealt way better, however, still wasnt as I thought a CCDB should be. One day, somehow, something loosened up in the shock internals and when comressing and rebounding the shock made some wierd vibrations and noises. So i sent it back to CC to get fixed, and by the way, talked to Malcolm if he could tune the shock better for my Sunday, he said he'll have a look at it.

The fixed shock arrived, mounted it on my bike and was absolutely BLOWN away at how well it fealt this time. Compression is ultra sensitive, super light, reabound is correct, works like a dream. On races I close the compression a little, especially the high speed to get some of the BOS philisophy into my suspension settings, but when I want to have fun, I open up all the compression it's got and have so much fun, every trail feels flat :D
 
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EM-EFER

Monkey
May 29, 2007
311
0
What do you mean you "hooked up a shock tune" to your bike? Position sensitive data acquisition equipment? Mind if I ask the specs? Sample rate, measuring what exactly, and where did you get the equipment?

Besides that, every single movement in either direction, of any damper, passes through the low-speed stage at both the beginning and end of the movement. Most movements end up with a portion that would be above the high speed "threshold" speed, but it has to be a seriously hard hit before low speed compression damping is insignificant, and due to the limited force, sprung-return nature of rebound, it is physically impossible for any rebound stroke not to be affected by low speed settings (unless the low/high speed threshold is like 5mm/s or something silly, which it isn't cos I've seen the low-speed damper curves). There are always low-speed inputs too, from pedaling to cornering to g-outs. These can reach peak speeds above the HS threshold but they are dominated by the low speed curves.

I consider myself to be able to ride at a reasonable pace - I'm not Sam Hill but not a complete hack either - and I have noticed significant differences in the ride with even one or two clicks of compression (be it LSC on the BOS and CCDB or Propedal on a DHX).

So basically, I demand hard evidence or clarification, otherwise I will completely disagree with what you've said :)
What do you mean you "hooked up a shock tune" to your bike? Position sensitive data acquisition equipment? Mind if I ask the specs? Sample rate, measuring what exactly, and where did you get the equipment?
A friend who used to run DH east coast magazine has an aquisition unit, anyone on the east coast who had a magazine subscription to strictly dh can verify this.
No idea of the specifics on how it was setup but I will be glad to find out.
I am in no way a shock expert and may have Malcolm from CC chime in and explain this better than I since he was also involved with the setup of the shock. This is coming from second hand information.

Besides that, every single movement in either direction, of any damper, passes through the low-speed stage at both the beginning and end of the movement. Most movements end up with a portion that would be above the high speed "threshold" speed, but it has to be a seriously hard hit before low speed compression damping is insignificant, and due to the limited force, sprung-return nature of rebound, it is physically impossible for any rebound stroke not to be affected by low speed settings (unless the low/high speed threshold is like 5mm/s or something silly, which it isn't cos I've seen the low-speed damper curves). There are always low-speed inputs too, from pedaling to cornering to g-outs. These can reach peak speeds above the HS threshold but they are dominated by the low speed curves.
It does matter, but very little and stays consistent no matter what the shocks low speeds were set up at on 70% of big hits.. The LSC does effect the beggining of the curve on the way to HSC, but still very little. The shock at high speed hits/shaft speeds would blow past any setting on the LSC. Most race speeds are hard hits/high shaft speed. Peddling and cornering I didn't consider race speeds.. I guess I should have been more specific, but you are correct.

I consider myself to be able to ride at a reasonable pace - I'm not Sam Hill but not a complete hack either - and I have noticed significant differences in the ride with even one or two clicks of compression (be it LSC on the BOS and CCDB or Propedal on a DHX).
Have you ever raced? If so what level? You are the first person to say the BOS is better...:biggrin:

I am in no way disregarding or trying to belittle/argue with what you have said.
 

NY_Star

Turbo Monkey
Part of the reason why the low speed adjusters on the CCDB do so little is because the shaft size is so small. All shock adjusters work on displacement. The larger OD of the shock shaft the more oil is displaced so the more oil flowing through the adjusters. I believe that the CCDB is a 6mm shaft. This is a much smaller size then most shocks that use a 12mm shaft. They do not have an orifice rebound adjuster like every other shock and this lets them use a solid shaft. This shaft has a little less friction then a larger shaft too.

Also A LS adjuster is like a blow off control. It controls at what point it is going to blow off to the high speed adjuster. I am not sure how the CCDB adjuster is but if it is like most common ones the low speed it a needle that goes into a orifice. Surrounding this orifice is a spring backed check plate that is the high speed adjuster. When the shock takes a slower hit such as a g-out or a drop the flow of oil is not enough to push open the check plate and activate the high speed adjuster. It will blow off when you hit a hole or large rock going 20. This makes a sharp spike and will blow off the adjuster.
 
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EM-EFER

Monkey
May 29, 2007
311
0
Do explain? All things being relative, i would think you shock would be tuned to reflect your speed. also, i'm unclear as to what you mean by 'race speed?' race courses have fast sections, and race courses have slow sections. i can play around on my bike at the local trails and go faster than when i'm racing. race tracks and trails come in all shapes, sizes, and speeds so the term doesn't really mean much. And i'm not sure i buy the notion that lsc and lsr aren't used at all, racing or otherwise. they are based on shock shaft speed, not on actual bike speed. I'm certainly not the world's fastest racer (more like average speed pro who's not getting any younger or faster) but I can definitely notice changes to my lsc and lsr settings on a race track, so clearly they are doing something.
[edit] socket beat my to the first question
LSC and LSR were used at lower speeds such as peddling sections or cornering.

Lets forget race speed, that was a bad term I should have said high shaft speeds like mount snow national course. I am also an average pro who isnt getting faster but getting fatter.
 
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NY_Star

Turbo Monkey
LSC and LSR were used at lower speeds such as peddling sections or cornering.

Lets forget race speed, that was a bad term I should have said high shaft speeds like mount snow national course. I am also an average pro who isnt getting faster but getting fatter.
Just wondering did you use the Race Tech Shock clock by chance for data. We have one at work so just wondering.
 

norbar

Turbo Monkey
Jun 7, 2007
9,895
493
Warsaw :/
Great review Socket. That should clarify some things and maybe calm down some of the fanboys. Definately very helpfull for someone looking for higher lever shock (like me ;) ).
Cheers.


Hey Sethimus

Sending your shock to Suspension Center in Switzerland is probably easier/cheaper than sending to the US. I have good results with the DHX chassis and some tuning.
Actualy you can get a push tuning in europe. TFtuned does it from UK.

BTW. Am I wrong or is the susp center you are talking about Fox only? (I'll probably be soon ordering a frame that comes with a roco and I'm not to happy about that :/)
 

sethimus

scroll all you want!
Feb 5, 2006
2,407
335
not in Whistler anymore :/
Thanks Socket

Very interesting and well written. I agree it would be cool to hear your thoughts on an AVY and a tuned DHX. You want to come test mine next summer in the alps? I could find you a cheap place to stay and free lift tickets if you write an article.

Are people not so excited about the Vivid anymore?



Hey Sethimus

Sending your shock to Suspension Center in Switzerland is probably easier/cheaper than sending to the US. I have good results with the DHX chassis and some tuning.
ben, tftuned in gb is also doing the push tuning, pepi tuning in meran, italy is push partner from 2009 on. both are duty free for me, switzerland is outside the eu, so i have to pay duty for the tuning. gb is propably cheaper for me cause the pound is worth **** the last months
 

norbar

Turbo Monkey
Jun 7, 2007
9,895
493
Warsaw :/
ben, tftuned in gb is also doing the push tuning, pepi tuning in meran, italy is push partner from 2009 on. both are duty free for me, switzerland is outside the eu, so i have to pay duty for the tuning. gb is propably cheaper for me cause the pound is worth **** the last months
It's cheaper as long as you live in an euro based country :/

BTW. Can you tell me a bit more about the whole italian partner in meran?
 

William42

fork ways
Jul 31, 2007
3,750
398
one question though, after all that great review, what did you mean about the Avalanche? superior?
Is that a joke? edit: no, probably not. Read the BOS St*y review he posted a couple weeks back and you'll understand

Anyway, great review socket, that mirrors my feelings on the shock when I'm running it in 8 inch mode. I haven't been able to get it to do the funky things it would do in 7 inch mode with a lower leverage ratio, but I've narrowed down my feelings on whats going on. It was a coupling of slower trails, light weight rider, and not being able to run low enough compression (both HSC and LSC were backed off, I weigh 160), I just couldn't get the shock to move and it felt excessively harsh, the shaft stopping suddenly and before it should have. Every once in awhile (not even on an excessive hit, maybe one that would go through 1/2 - 3/4 the travel at about 10 mph) it would get a super harsh stopping feel, make an odd thunk (I think as it switched to rebound) and return. I wasn't real impressed with the shock, but once I switched it to 8 inch mode and got the proper spring for 8 inch mode it was great. Your review nailed it.
 

dhkid

Turbo Monkey
Mar 10, 2005
3,359
0
Malaysia
Part of the reason why the low speed adjusters on the CCDB do so little is because the shaft size is so small. All shock adjusters work on displacement. The larger OD of the shock shaft the more oil is displaced so the more oil flowing through the adjusters. I believe that the CCDB is a 6mm shaft. This is a much smaller size then most shocks that use a 12mm shaft. They do not have an orifice rebound adjuster like every other shock and this lets them use a solid shaft. This shaft has a little less friction then a larger shaft too.
sorry dude, but that is just full of inaccuracies.

the ccdb is not like other shocks where the adjusters/circuits for lsc is on the piggyback. the only thing they share is the location of the adjusters. with the ccdb, it can be assumed that no oil flows through the piston (expect really high speed hits), all the oil is directed through the rebound and compression circuit on the piggy back, though the double barrel, hence the name. have a look at the cane creek web site.

with other shocks where its a single tube design, then yea, the circuits on the piggy back rely on the oil displaced by the shaft to move oil through them. shaft size does matter. but there are ways around it with just well designed circuits.


Also A LS adjuster is like a blow off control. It controls at what point it is going to blow off to the high speed adjuster. I am not sure how the CCDB adjuster is but if it is like most common ones the low speed it a needle that goes into a orifice. Surrounding this orifice is a spring backed check plate that is the high speed adjuster. When the shock takes a slower hit such as a g-out or a drop the flow of oil is not enough to push open the check plate and activate the high speed adjuster. It will blow off when you hit a hole or large rock going 20. This makes a sharp spike and will blow off the adjuster.
its the other way round man. an orifice (lsc circuit) will spike at a certain speed, having an upper limit.

more accurately, the hsc adjuster is what would act as the 'blow off' to the lsc circuit. the more hsc you run, the longer the oil will be forced to move through the lsc circuit, and hence higher the pressures.



I find most os the poins you say are correct, however, I happen to be a CCDB user on a low leverage ratio bike (Iron Horse Sunday), and I have tried a BOS (not on my bike). I think that an important thing to mention about the BOS is that it's a shock made for racing only. BOS's concept of shock and fork functionality is to have a hard high speed compression in order to make the bike not lose speed over bumps. The BOS cartridges that they no longer fabricate were insane. You had to really recieve a hard impact on the fork for it to actually compress, otherwise it would remain uncompressed giving better pedal eficiency and carry better speed over bumps. As you can see, their philosophy is to sacrifice comfort&control over "not losing speed". Once I tried a BOSed Intense M6, just lifted the rear wheel off the grond to then push it against the ground to see how the rear end fealt, and I was surprised about how the HSC was locking it up.
not being an ass or anything, but think you got a few things mixed up. no way you can feel HSC just pushing down on a bike, what you are feeling there is lsc.

agreed that the bos tune is probably more 'race' oriented, but there is more to it. i am sure socket or the others might go into more. its basically got to do with stability. when you start going really fast, its ok to sacrifice a bit of plushness so that your bike stays nice a level. so its not diving all over the place and you are ready to attack what ever is coming up next. there is also other things like how more compression reduces the peak spike of the force being transmitted to the rider.

of course go too far into the deep end and too much damping will prove to be bad too. maybe that fork and shock was not damped for someone your weight?

anyways, by the rough description on your bike set up, it seems that you dont run much compression at all. nothing wrong with that if it suits you.
 
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Biffff

Monkey
Jan 10, 2006
913
0
You weigh 205 and your running a 350 pound spring on your CCDB??????
I weigh 200 and am running a 450, which is what they spec'd it with. That might be why its feeling a bit dead to you. Slightly stiffer spring wide liven it some.
 

iRider

Turbo Monkey
Apr 5, 2008
2,404
605
You weigh 205 and your running a 350 pound spring on your CCDB??????
I weigh 200 and am running a 450, which is what they spec'd it with. That might be why its feeling a bit dead to you. Slightly stiffer spring wide liven it some.
I was wondering the same. Great review though!

Socket, you are saying the BOS is a little better on you bike but the CCDB can be set up really close? This means with a CCDB I can avoid a re-tune everytime I switch it to a different frame which I have to do with the BOS (or a pushed DHX), or? Mmmm, might be worth the little performance loss. :think:
 

blender

Monkey
Oct 19, 2006
642
0
MDR
Socket.. dude, that is a monster writeup!
Thanks for all the intricate details.

I am assembling my DH bike with a freshly Pushed Roco at the moment, and you've inspired me to really take my time to get the feel for it, and write something up to share my experience with others.
 

General Lee

Turbo Monkey
Oct 16, 2003
2,867
0
The 802
LSC and LSR were used at lower speeds such as peddling sections or cornering.

Lets forget race speed, that was a bad term I should have said high shaft speeds like mount snow national course. I am also an average pro who isnt getting faster but getting fatter.


not entirely, there's a lot more to it than just pedaling or cornering. lsc is also what controls chassis stability and the effect shifting weight and braking forces have on your suspension they never really "go away." if your software did in fact say there was no lsc, etc then it is either becasue you ran very little of it, your data aquisition was innaccurate, or your friend didn't interpret the data correctly.

lsc is probably one of the most invaluable adjustments you can make, the idea isn;t that is 'dissappears' at certain speeds. set up properly the lsc threshold is overcome by a force/shaft speed greater than would be created by shifting your weight back or railing around a berm. it does the job of keeping the frame feeling level (stable) over varying terrain and around corners where an under damped shock would cause the bike to chopper out. it also has an effect on ride height, meaning how high a shock tends to sit in its travel when you get going. a shock with more lsc tends to 'sit up.'

i sort of get what you are saying though if what you mean is that once up to speed the effect of the lsc circuit become less pronounced. but this is sort of the point. if you get it just right for your particular preference and the track a shock tends to do its job without really doing anything to get noticed; there when you need it, gone when you don't

there's no real universal terminology used to describe suspension characteristics on the net, everyone sort of makes uptheir own, so i'm sort of reading between the lines a bit. hopefully i'm not way off. but either way, i certainly find your friends data aquisition results to be questionable.
 

jackalope

Mental acuity - 1%
Jan 9, 2004
6,244
3,025
in a single wide, cooking meth...
Ahh, this is why I still read RM forums. Great info from Socket and others. Another issue I wonder about is how certain shocks work with certain suspension designs. For example, I have a '05 V-10, which as many of you know has a high leverage ratio (at least this is the case in the beginning of the stroke) at 3.6:1, compared to let's say a Sunday or newer Morewoods. I won't belabor which one is better, but it has been my experience that the CCDB works quite well with my high-leverage ratio design. Previous to getting the CCDB, I had a DHX 5.0 and I never felt like I could find the sweet spot of small bump compliance, stability at high speed, and (even) moderate bottom out resistance. Got the CCDB and after a lot of tinkering, I think I've found a nice balance for my particular bike and riding style (or lack thereof). To me, the CCDB was a significant improvement over the DHX, but again, it may be more bike design related than anything, as I know a lot riders like General Lee have absolutely no issues with a bone stock DHX. Anyway, here is the set up I've settled on:

LSC: 8 clicks in from full out
HSC: 2 turns in
LSR: 4 clicks in
HSR: 1 turn in

So all in all, the my set up is fairly close to Socket's. Pretty quick rebound settings and some LSC to mute pedal inputs. The middle range HSC setting has also eliminated for harsh bottom outs on all but the biggest, flatish landings. Btw, I run a 500 lb Ti spring, and weigh around 190 lbs - the only issue I've had is the Ti spring deflecting and rubbing on the shock body (which I addressed with CC's plastic sleeve that slips over the shock body).

Anyway, I would love to try all the high end shocks back to back on the exact same bike on the exact same course to get a real feel for the differences (unless of course they make me slower and/or gain weight)
 
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monkeyfcuker

Monkey
May 26, 2008
903
2
UK, Carlisle
Another excellent review/write up Socket. I'm fairly new to DH and still massively inexperienced but I love it when threads like this come up as I always feel like I've learnt an absolute shed loads about suspension setup etc cheers!
 

General Lee

Turbo Monkey
Oct 16, 2003
2,867
0
The 802
Ahh, this is why I still read RM forums. Great from info Socket and others. Another issue I wonder about is how certain shocks work with certain suspension designs. For example, I have a '05 V-10, which as many of you know has a high leverage ratio (at least this is the case in the beginning of the stroke) at 3.6:1, compared to let's say a Sunday or newer Morewoods. I won't belabor which one is better, but it has been my experience that the CCDB works quite well with my high-leverage ratio design. Previous to getting the CCDB, I had a DHX 5.0 and I never felt like I could find the sweet spot of small bump compliance, stability at high speed, and (even) moderate bottom out resistance. Got the CCDB and after a lot of tinkering, I think I've found a nice balance for my particular bike and riding style (or lack thereof). To me, the CCDB was a significant improvement over the DHX, but again, it may be more bike design related than anything, as I know a lot riders like General Lee have absolutely no issues with a bone stock DHX. Anyway, here is the set up I've settled on:



Anyway, I would love to try all the high end shocks back to back on the exact same bike on the exact same course to get a real feel for the differences.

agreed it might be bike design related since a genericly tuned shock is going to have slightly different characteristics from one frame to another but trust me, i do have issues with a dhx. in particular the lack of any real lsc adjustment such as can be found on a vivid, ccdb, bos, avy. And a dhx can be a brute to set up, because its adjustments all seem to effect each other somewhat. it took me a few months to get it where i wanted it on my sunday and i never really got it fully dialed when i had my 224 (i think i was unfortunate to be between spring rates, 350 was too soft and 400 was to stiff). For good reason a lot of riders don't have the time or interest to put that much effort into tuning, and there are plenty of highly skilled riders who never figure out how to tune their suspension; they just say f*ck it and charge on anyway without caring (like dh riding in general, sometimes how well a shock works is all in your head). i've said before that the vivid was an improvement over the dhx on the sunday, but as socket has pointed out in his reviews of high end shocks the imporvement is nothing earthshattering. i'd switch back if i had to, but if i had to choose i'd go with the vivid.

my biggest gripe this past year was being able to set up my vivid how i wanted but not being able to get the lousy motion control damper on my boxxer wc to follow suit (felt like it was a better match with the dhx). hopefully the new mission control dh on the '09/10 boxxer will offer better quality adjustment that actually does what it is supposed to consistently.
 
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bikenweed

Turbo Monkey
Oct 21, 2004
2,435
0
Los Osos
Enough of this "feels" nonsense. Both the BOS and CC reviews have been very qualitative. Let's get a quantitative review going that compares these two "wonder shocks."

Take this Banshee, and run 5 elite level racers on it down a decent 2-3 minute DH track. Something that's technical and not a total pedal fest. Time all 5 dudes. Then swap shocks. Re-run the 5 dudes down the same course. Swap shocks again, repeat. Then, swap shocks a final time. It would be ideal to hide the shock so it's a blind test. Maybe pull an old sock over the shock so it's hidden from sight.

Post up the 20 individual times, and one can finally figure out which shock is "the best."
 

General Lee

Turbo Monkey
Oct 16, 2003
2,867
0
The 802
Enough of this "feels" nonsense. Both the BOS and CC reviews have been very qualitative. Let's get a quantitative review going that compares these two "wonder shocks."

Take this Banshee, and run 5 elite level racers on it down a decent 2-3 minute DH track. Something that's technical and not a total pedal fest. Time all 5 dudes. Then swap shocks. Re-run the 5 dudes down the same course. Swap shocks again, repeat. Then, swap shocks a final time. It would be ideal to hide the shock so it's a blind test. Maybe pull an old sock over the shock so it's hidden from sight.

Post up the 20 individual times, and one can finally figure out which shock is "the best."
i'm going to go way out on a limb and predict the results would be times that were consistently the same regarless of which shock was used. ccdb, avy, rs, roco, fox, bos. they might have all sorts of things to say about which one they liked more but when it comes down to track speed i'd be it wouldn;t translate into an advantage. (though having a shock you think 'sucks' certainly won;t do much for your confidence and speed).

this sort of test already exists every weekend on the wc circuit. guys switch sponsors and eqipment all the time and some have access to more 'works' stuff than others. doesn;t seem to be reflected in the results at all. if anything, it kind of proves what Gracia was saying in andorra: "we're all on the same stuff now"

there are way too many variables to control for in your test to be able draw any concusion as to which shock is 'best,' but that doesn't mean the idea wouldn;t make for a pretty cool read if it was done well.
 
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Sunday_MikeG

Chimp
Jul 1, 2008
12
0
not being an ass or anything, but think you got a few things mixed up. no way you can feel HSC just pushing down on a bike, what you are feeling there is lsc.

agreed that the bos tune is probably more 'race' oriented, but there is more to it. i am sure socket or the others might go into more. its basically got to do with stability. when you start going really fast, its ok to sacrifice a bit of plushness so that your bike stays nice a level. so its not diving all over the place and you are ready to attack what ever is coming up next. there is also other things like how more compression reduces the peak spike of the force being transmitted to the rider.

of course go too far into the deep end and too much damping will prove to be bad too. maybe that fork and shock was not damped for someone your weight?

anyways, by the rough description on your bike set up, it seems that you dont run much compression at all. nothing wrong with that if it suits you.
What I meant was that with faster push of the rear end onto the ground, you could start to feel the HSC, compared to pushing the rear end slowly. Not that it locked up. Something I found pretty wierd HSC kicked in so early. BOS suspension are known to have a pretty harsh HSC setting that kicks in early to make sure the bike doesnt lose speed.

I set up my bike differently for races and "just for fun". As I mentioned, for races I tend to close out compression, especially HSC so the suspension doesnt sink in too much making me lose speed and inertia. When I want to have some fun, I open the compression settings giving me a really plush ride, just for fun.
 

General Lee

Turbo Monkey
Oct 16, 2003
2,867
0
The 802
What I meant was that with faster push of the rear end onto the ground, you could start to feel the HSC, compared to pushing the rear end slowly. Not that it locked up. Something I found pretty wierd HSC kicked in so early. BOS suspension are known to have a pretty harsh HSC setting that kicks in early to make sure the bike doesnt lose speed.

I set up my bike differently for races and "just for fun". As I mentioned, for races I tend to close out compression, especially HSC so the suspension doesnt sink in too much making me lose speed and inertia. When I want to have some fun, I open the compression settings giving me a really plush ride, just for fun.
that's more in the realm of lsc adjustment (and why if shocks have only one external comp adjustment its for lsc). but hey, if you've got a setting that works for you who cares what your rational is or how you describe it. if it works ride the piss out of it, right?. :cheers: