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CCDB notes

jackalope

Mental acuity - 1%
Jan 9, 2004
7,596
5,894
in a single wide, cooking meth...
like dh riding in general, sometimes how well a shock works is all in your head
Wrong...I spent a lot of money on that damned shock, so it's definitely shaved a minute or 2 off my race times, made me a little taller, improved my sperm count, and helped with the bike's coefficient of drag (thereby allowing me to avoid wearing a revealing skin suit...or worse).

Yeah, I do think there is some mental expectations you set whenever you drop a lot of coin on something like a CCDB. I will say the shock has at least improved my understanding of damping (with the swell pictures if nothing else) and the bike doesn't easily bottom out anymore.


As for Bikenweed's idea, I'd like to also see 5 hacks like myself (Expert level or lower) blind test various shocks on the same frame. I think pros like General are fast no matter what they're on as long as the geo is to their liking and the bump stick up front goes up and down. It would also be interesting to mix in subjective test rider comments with actual, real world dyno tests (i.e. 3rd party tester) and data aquisition results of all the aforementioned shocks.


Oh, on a serious note to Socket and other CCDB pwners, make sure to get CC's little white plastic "guide pins" when installing the shock. It allows you to line of the bolt holes and spherical bearings before you insert the actual bolt (i.e. the bolt pushes the plastic guide pin out as it's pushed through). It is an absolute b!tch to do w/o the pins, IMO.
 
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General Lee

Turbo Monkey
Oct 16, 2003
2,860
0
The 802
Wrong...I spent a lot of money on that damned shock, so it's definitely shaved a minute or 2 off my race times, made me a little taller, improved my sperm count, and helped with the bike's coefficient of drag (thereby allowing me to avoid wearing a revealing skin suit...or worse).

Yeah, I do think there is some mental expectations you set whenever you drop a lot of coin on something like a CCDB. I will say the shock has at least improved my understanding of damping (with the swell pictures if nothing else) and the bike doesn't easily bottom out anymore.


As for Bikenweed's idea, I'd like to also see 5 hacks like myself (Expert level or lower) blind test various shocks on the same frame. I think pros like General are fast no matter what they're on as long as the geo is to their liking and the bump stick up front goes up and down. It would also be interesting to mix in subjective test rider comments with actual, real world dyno tests (i.e. 3rd party tester) and data aquisition results of all the aforementioned shocks.


Oh, on a serious note to Socket and other CCDB pwners, make sure to get CC's little white plastic "guide pins" when installing the shock. It allows you to line of the bolt holes and spherical bearings before you insert the actual bolt (i.e. the bolt pushes the plastic guide pin out as it's pushed through). It is an absolute b!tch to do w/o the pins, IMO.
maybe, but i mean even if you don't run expensive parts. i'm sure you've had days on the hill where you think 'my bike is set up like crap' and it bothers you enough that you just don't ride as well as usual and no adjustment seems to help. and then you go out the next day and everything is great.


what i meant though, was that for some guy they'll be really bothered by the differences and some won't. i know some rediculously fat guy who fr whatever reason seem completely oblivious to how their bikes are set up (as in the fork is in such need of lube it barely moves) yet it has no effect on their riding. maybe 'mental' was the wrong word.
 
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bikenweed

Turbo Monkey
Oct 21, 2004
2,432
0
Los Osos
when it comes down to track speed i'd be it wouldn;t translate into an advantage.
Me sentiments exactly.

there are way too many variables to control for in your test to be able draw any concusion as to which shock is 'best,' but that doesn't mean the idea wouldn;t make for a pretty cool read if it was done well.
Too many variables? Same bike, same track, same tires. Only real variables would be the climate and strength of the riders. Obviously, more runs and more riders would make for a better test. It would be kinda interesting to see the real results, if for no other reason than to shut the nerds up in the lift lines.

There are nearly unlimited variables in downhill racing. That rock can roll out into your landing, the wind can pick up, the sun can come out from behind a cloud and blind ya, a loose berm will change shape with just a few people hitting it, a lip will flatten out during a long day, a landing will fall apart, braking bumps will get bigger, it can start raining, etc. A good shock will be predictable, reliable, and handle a wide variety of situations. I guess the BOS or whatever does that. Cool.





I don't care in the slightest about CC and BOS products. I'll never buy that stuff. Fox is 45 minutes from my house, and Fox parts/bushings are easily available and cheap. If I lived next to CC, then I'd have one of those. If I were French, then maybe a BOS, but probably a Marzocchi. I just wanted to point out that all these "wonderful reviews" are totally qualitative, and have zero real numbers behind them.
 

jackalope

Mental acuity - 1%
Jan 9, 2004
7,596
5,894
in a single wide, cooking meth...
I just wanted to point out that all these "wonderful reviews" are totally qualitative, and have zero real numbers behind them.
Actually, there are some very real numbers behind a CCDB...Like $650.00 for example... :disgust:

But yes, personal reviews are by definition quite subjective, that's why I'd like to see the dynos of the shocks (and have a 3rd party suspension expert describe what they mean) and/or black box ride data. That way I could feel superior and haughty if my CCDB didn't have big spikes in the dyno curve (e.g. I could carry around laminated print outs to races to show people how cool my expensive shock is and thus prove I would be faster than the kid with jean shorts riding an Azonic Eliminator if I could find a way to spend more money on my bike).

It would also be neat if you could test different frames with different shocks and see if one works "better" with certain leverage ratio curves and suspension characteristics.

All in all, I wonder if it's analagous to the Ferrari (BOS/CCDB) vs. Mustang (i.e. DHX/Vivid) comparison. Sure, the Ferrari is slightly faster and handles slightly better, but does the exhorbitant cost justify that slight performance advantage? And would the average driver ever really notice? Well, you could probably pull more ass in the Ferrari (and most chix think a "double barrel" is what their dad uses to disuade the Kid Rock poser from coming back around), but still, the point remains...
 
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General Lee

Turbo Monkey
Oct 16, 2003
2,860
0
The 802
indeed. the the only numbers behind any of thee shocks have a big fat $ in front of them.

not to get off topic, but i'm curious: who else is lot more concerned with how their fork/'bump stick' performs than with their rear shock. i feel like i can make do with whatever is going on back there so long as the fork feels dialed. but if the fork isn't just right it has a noticeable effect on my riding (perception of my riding anyway, for all i know i might be gong the same speed and just not enjoying it very much).

There was great quote from Vouilloz back in '93 or '94: "a long as my front wheel is on the ground, i don't care where my back wheel is." of course we all know neither of his wheels were ever on the ground and he just floated down the hill on a pillow of self-generated anti-gravity, which explains why it always looked like he was on a different course. but that's neither here nor there.


i guess this is all a bit off the original topic, but socket pretty much nailed it with the review so why not. beside i've just been killing time before a meeting so i've had nothing else to do. at least no one's come in to ruin it yet.
 
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jackalope

Mental acuity - 1%
Jan 9, 2004
7,596
5,894
in a single wide, cooking meth...
^^

Sadly (for me anyway), I think you may be right about the fork compared to the back end. I do think some rear suspensions do feel more composed than others (depending on design, set up, shock, etc...), but I doubt it helps you go much faster (if any). On the otherhand, a fork can make a big difference in terms of actually going where you want to go and staying in control. I recently rode my uncles' Demo 8 at Whis and it was equipped with an OEM 888 that was absolutely beat. While it went up and down in the parking lot, it bottomed frequently and *seemed* to fatigue my hands pretty quickly. In fact, I recently sold my 888 RC2X and slapped on a Totem, so I am curious to see if I will notice any performance differences. We'll see.
 

Biffff

Monkey
Jan 10, 2006
913
0
All in all, I wonder if it's analagous to the Ferrari (BOS/CCDB) vs. Mustang (i.e. DHX/Vivid) comparison. Sure, the Ferrari is slightly faster and handles slightly better, but does the exhorbitant cost justify that slight performance advantage? And would the average driver ever really notice? Well, you could probably pull more ass in the Ferrari (and most chix think a "double barrel" is what their dad uses to disuade the Kid Rock poser from coming back around), but still, the point remains...
Comparing a $25k mustang to a $300k Ferrari is a little different then comparing a $450 DHX to a $650 CCDB. Its a relevent performance comparison CCDB=Ferrari and DHX= Rustang. The CCDB is a rediculous perfromance bargain available for just a little more cash.
 
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iRider

Turbo Monkey
Apr 5, 2008
5,648
3,089
Enough of this "feels" nonsense. Both the BOS and CC reviews have been very qualitative. Let's get a quantitative review going that compares these two "wonder shocks."

Take this Banshee, and run 5 elite level racers on it down a decent 2-3 minute DH track. Something that's technical and not a total pedal fest. Time all 5 dudes. Then swap shocks. Re-run the 5 dudes down the same course. Swap shocks again, repeat. Then, swap shocks a final time. It would be ideal to hide the shock so it's a blind test. Maybe pull an old sock over the shock so it's hidden from sight.

Post up the 20 individual times, and one can finally figure out which shock is "the best."
Some motorcycles mags did this to test different road motorcycles. They took 4-6 riders of all abilities, gave them serveral laps to get the bike's setup right and then 3 fast laps each rider. Change, repeat.
In the test it became obvious that one bike was the fastest, but also that some bikes were only fast in the hands of a pro racer and a weekend warrior couldn't handle them. Very informative!
I am all for scientific tests because most claims of suspension tuning companies and customers are unbelievable. And now with moto timers and the freelap stuff readily available everybody should be able to do these tests.
BTW: I had some surprising results testing tires this way. ;)
 

NY_Star

Turbo Monkey
If you want to settle this feel thing i have a shock Dyno at work such as this


I could dyno the shocks and it would spit out a graph like this



and everyone could look at it and be puzzled and see that it is really use less. But if any one wants to do that i would be more then happy to do it.
 

broke(n)

Chimp
Mar 20, 2007
17
0
So I don't know how to quote or any of that fancy stuff, but back to 'feeling dead' being a negative...

I like it when my shock soaks up the bumps (feels dead). I am happy to apply a little more body language to my ride to get it up an over things as a trade off.

Will a CCDB be a noticeable improvement over a DHX given my preferences?

Sockets analysis seems to get a little circular: 'I got this shock with fancy damp(en?)ing, I didn't like it like (it felt dead) that so I wound off the damp(en?)ing until it felt more like my less damped old shock, now I reckon it's not that much better than what I had before...'

Discuss
 

buckoW

Turbo Monkey
Mar 1, 2007
3,777
4,699
Champery, Switzerland
haha... are you ****ting me? I'M ****ING THERE!

Am actually planning to go to Canada in June (can push that back a bit), but I could stop by in Switzerland for a little while on the way there I'm sure... very keen to see if I can survive the Champery WC course!
Come on over, but give me a heads up so I can arrange the lift tickets. The more the trail gets eroded the easier it gets. The slick black mud is gone and small rocks are showing through so you get much better traction on the steep stuff.
 

buckoW

Turbo Monkey
Mar 1, 2007
3,777
4,699
Champery, Switzerland
Actualy you can get a push tuning in europe. TFtuned does it from UK.

BTW. Am I wrong or is the susp center you are talking about Fox only? (I'll probably be soon ordering a frame that comes with a roco and I'm not to happy about that :/)
They do other shocks but mainly Fox. I have heard many good things about TF tuned but I think Gery at Suspension Center is on another level, IMO. Custom pistons and no bladder 40 cartridges for example.
 

buckoW

Turbo Monkey
Mar 1, 2007
3,777
4,699
Champery, Switzerland
ben, tftuned in gb is also doing the push tuning, pepi tuning in meran, italy is push partner from 2009 on. both are duty free for me, switzerland is outside the eu, so i have to pay duty for the tuning. gb is propably cheaper for me cause the pound is worth **** the last months
Ok. I didn't think about tax, but, I don't think there would be any if you wrote that it was for warranty.

I was thinking that the Swiss Franc is not so strong against the Euro right now.
 

buckoW

Turbo Monkey
Mar 1, 2007
3,777
4,699
Champery, Switzerland
So I don't know how to quote or any of that fancy stuff, but back to 'feeling dead' being a negative...
It is not a negative. It depends where you are riding and how you want to ride it. Different setups for different trails and riding styles. Maybe, he wanted to play a bit more and adjusted the shock accordingly.
 

Steve M

Turbo Monkey
Mar 3, 2007
1,991
45
Whistler
If you want to settle this feel thing i have a shock Dyno at work such as this


I could dyno the shocks and it would spit out a graph like this



and everyone could look at it and be puzzled and see that it is really use less. But if any one wants to do that i would be more then happy to do it.
haha, what speeds can your dyno measure up to? In order to be much use for high-speed stuff (eg telling if the shock will "spike"), it really needs to be able to generate speeds of about 2m/s.

So I don't know how to quote or any of that fancy stuff, but back to 'feeling dead' being a negative...

I like it when my shock soaks up the bumps (feels dead). I am happy to apply a little more body language to my ride to get it up an over things as a trade off.

Will a CCDB be a noticeable improvement over a DHX given my preferences?

Sockets analysis seems to get a little circular: 'I got this shock with fancy damp(en?)ing, I didn't like it like (it felt dead) that so I wound off the damp(en?)ing until it felt more like my less damped old shock, now I reckon it's not that much better than what I had before...'

Discuss

I like the ride dead/stable too when it's overly steep/fast/rough, but as soon as it becomes more of an advantage to be able to hop/jump stuff, livelier is better. The CCDB certainly gives you the option to choose between one or the other, but I felt the BOS gave marginally better liveliness when set up to feel however stable you wanted it. I backed off the damping (no en) because, like anything, there is a point at which it can become too much. My bike has a moderately low leverage ratio (2.83:1), if you ran a V10 or something you might want settings that were wound on a fair bit more than what I chose. However, I absolutely DO NOT subscribe to the Cave Dweller principle - that more damping is always better. It's not, there is a point where you have too much LSC/HSC/LSR/HSR/whatever. If I can have a bike that's satisfactorily stable, where I feel like I can control it, why should I not opt for the bike to be as lively as possible within that realm of stability? It doesn't need to get any more dead because it's controllable and stable as it is...

Come on over, but give me a heads up so I can arrange the lift tickets. The more the trail gets eroded the easier it gets. The slick black mud is gone and small rocks are showing through so you get much better traction on the steep stuff.
Sick, I'll do my best to take you up on that offer!
 

Steve M

Turbo Monkey
Mar 3, 2007
1,991
45
Whistler
You weigh 205 and your running a 350 pound spring on your CCDB??????
I weigh 200 and am running a 450, which is what they spec'd it with. That might be why its feeling a bit dead to you. Slightly stiffer spring wide liven it some.
Yeah but on what bike, with what leverage ratio? I like my setup soft as a general rule, and my bike has a reasonably low leverage ratio (2.83:1). If you're on a V10 or an Orange or whatever, you're going to need something a bit stiffer.

I was wondering the same. Great review though!

Socket, you are saying the BOS is a little better on you bike but the CCDB can be set up really close? This means with a CCDB I can avoid a re-tune everytime I switch it to a different frame which I have to do with the BOS (or a pushed DHX), or? Mmmm, might be worth the little performance loss. :think:
Pretty much. I think the CCDB is a pretty sick shock, there's not a whole lot in it between that and the BOS - just a few very tiny things that, all else being equal (esp price and setup ability of the tuner) would have me just barely give the BOS the nod. Like I said, I'm happy with my CCDB and even if I had the money I doubt I'd bother swapping it. At this level

Enough of this "feels" nonsense. Both the BOS and CC reviews have been very qualitative. Let's get a quantitative review going that compares these two "wonder shocks."

Take this Banshee, and run 5 elite level racers on it down a decent 2-3 minute DH track. Something that's technical and not a total pedal fest. Time all 5 dudes. Then swap shocks. Re-run the 5 dudes down the same course. Swap shocks again, repeat. Then, swap shocks a final time. It would be ideal to hide the shock so it's a blind test. Maybe pull an old sock over the shock so it's hidden from sight.

Post up the 20 individual times, and one can finally figure out which shock is "the best."
Sick, give me a $10,000 budget and I'll do that for ya. In the meantime, keep in mind that I'm not getting paid for this stuff - if you want me to test something, you provide the equipment and I'll be happy to :). I also think the variation in times set by the riders would probably be larger than the discrepancies caused by the difference in shocks. I'd be surprised if you saw any significant trends across the board.
 

Steve M

Turbo Monkey
Mar 3, 2007
1,991
45
Whistler
indeed. the the only numbers behind any of thee shocks have a big fat $ in front of them.

not to get off topic, but i'm curious: who else is lot more concerned with how their fork/'bump stick' performs than with their rear shock. i feel like i can make do with whatever is going on back there so long as the fork feels dialed. but if the fork isn't just right it has a noticeable effect on my riding (perception of my riding anyway, for all i know i might be gong the same speed and just not enjoying it very much).

There was great quote from Vouilloz back in '93 or '94: "a long as my front wheel is on the ground, i don't care where my back wheel is." of course we all know neither of his wheels were ever on the ground and he just floated down the hill on a pillow of self-generated anti-gravity, which explains why it always looked like he was on a different course. but that's neither here nor there.


i guess this is all a bit off the original topic, but socket pretty much nailed it with the review so why not. beside i've just been killing time before a meeting so i've had nothing else to do. at least no one's come in to ruin it yet.
I do agree actually. You could give me a pretty whack shock setup and I'd still ride it - I'd notice, but I'd ride around it for the most part. If the fork is messed up though, it makes a noticeable difference to me.

Comparing a $25k mustang to a $300k Ferrari is a little different then comparing a $450 DHX to a $650 CCDB. Its a relevent performance comparison CCDB=Ferrari and DHX= Rustang. The CCDB is a rediculous perfromance bargain available for just a little more cash.
Not really, it's just an exaggerated analogy - despite the fact that the Ferrari costs 12x as much as the Mustang, it doesn't go 12x as fast, in fact it doesn't even go twice as fast. The CCDB only costs 50% more, but you're not getting 50% more grip or 50% less force transmission or 50% more speed or whatever... but as I've said many times before, we know this, we pay anyway. There is a logarithmic scale for performance increase vs price, basically at the high end you pay 10x as much for something 1/10th better. No surprises there.
 

Steve M

Turbo Monkey
Mar 3, 2007
1,991
45
Whistler
Great review!

I find most os the poins you say are correct, however, I happen to be a CCDB user on a low leverage ratio bike (Iron Horse Sunday), and I have tried a BOS (not on my bike). I think that an important thing to mention about the BOS is that it's a shock made for racing only. BOS's concept of shock and fork functionality is to have a hard high speed compression in order to make the bike not lose speed over bumps. The BOS cartridges that they no longer fabricate were insane. You had to really recieve a hard impact on the fork for it to actually compress, otherwise it would remain uncompressed giving better pedal eficiency and carry better speed over bumps. As you can see, their philosophy is to sacrifice comfort&control over "not losing speed". Once I tried a BOSed Intense M6, just lifted the rear wheel off the grond to then push it against the ground to see how the rear end fealt, and I was surprised about how the HSC was locking it up.

The CCDB on the other hand, is as you say, a more commercial shock, designed to that everybody will like it - "one-size-fits-all". However, its no where near a DHX, or a Vivid, or any other "normal" shock. The range of adjustments is incredible. In my opinion, Cane Creek is a great company, they have always replied my e-mails and I have gotten a lot of tips from Josh and Malcolm from CC, however, I think their "commercial" approach of selling the CCDB like fresh baked cookies is wrong. CC doesn't offer custom valving for specific bikes (Sundays DEFINATELY need them, as OEM shock have custom settings for these bikes) which is a great shame, and they only thing they "customize" while building the shock for you is the pressure of notrogen in the piggy back and the spring rate according to your weight.

When I got my CCDB, i fealt it didnt come with the best possible "feeling" to it. Rebound was too slow for a Sunday, and LSC could be lighter and more sensitive. I changed to a lower spring rate and fealt way better, however, still wasnt as I thought a CCDB should be. One day, somehow, something loosened up in the shock internals and when comressing and rebounding the shock made some wierd vibrations and noises. So i sent it back to CC to get fixed, and by the way, talked to Malcolm if he could tune the shock better for my Sunday, he said he'll have a look at it.

The fixed shock arrived, mounted it on my bike and was absolutely BLOWN away at how well it fealt this time. Compression is ultra sensitive, super light, reabound is correct, works like a dream. On races I close the compression a little, especially the high speed to get some of the BOS philisophy into my suspension settings, but when I want to have fun, I open up all the compression it's got and have so much fun, every trail feels flat :D
I didn't find the BOS to be excessive with the HSC, in fact I ended up cranking it up a bit for some really rough stuff (like 45km/h running leaps into rock gardens - not an exaggeration) because at that point I really was prioritising stability over a lively feel (seriously who wants anything but safety when you're riding stuff like that?). Even then, it was comparatively good, a fair bit less dead feeling than a DHX (if the DHX was set up for the same stuff, which I spent ages running) and so far still a notch above how I've managed to get the CCDB to go.

Also I've ridden the 40 and Boxxer BOS cartridges and thought they were awesome, didn't strike me as excessively damped at all, nor did the Idylle that I've done a few runs on. Plenty of damping yes, so much that it's needlessly harsh, no, in actual fact they provided the smoothest ride of anything I've tried. Not by a huge margin, but a bit. Which cartridge did you try? Cos I have heard from a few people that their original 888 cartridges more or less sucked nuts and felt like crap.

It does matter, but very little and stays consistent no matter what the shocks low speeds were set up at on 70% of big hits.. The LSC does effect the beggining of the curve on the way to HSC, but still very little. The shock at high speed hits/shaft speeds would blow past any setting on the LSC. Most race speeds are hard hits/high shaft speed. Peddling and cornering I didn't consider race speeds.. I guess I should have been more specific, but you are correct.



Have you ever raced? If so what level? You are the first person to say the BOS is better...:biggrin:

I am in no way disregarding or trying to belittle/argue with what you have said.
The LSC actually has a bigger effect AFTER the peak velocity has been reached, because as the shaft decelerates, it re-enters the low-speed part of the damping curve, which means that increasing your LSC can decrease how much travel you use on big hits without increasing the peak force transmitted to your hands (if the damping force is larger than the maximum spring force). If all you ride is 60km/h blown out rutted stuff then yeah for sure the HS adjustments will be very dominant over the LS stuff, but LS adjustments will always affect the ride somewhat.

Yeah I race whenever I can, racing elite.
 

Steve M

Turbo Monkey
Mar 3, 2007
1,991
45
Whistler
X-post from Farkin since I thought it was relevant..

Taken from PM cos I thought it was relevant to the discussion, hope you don't mind Rod.

No Skid Marks said:
Wouldn't the riders weight and the leverage ratio = the same thing anyway?
Or is it the relationship between the change from high and low that is adjusted, and the extremes of either or both to suit a leverage curve?
There are some similarities yeah, like I said if you were at the extreme ends of the weight spectrum the stock BOS tunes might not work ideally for you, and maybe adopting a lighter-valved setup would work better.

However, there are a couple of distinct differences between increasing your leverage rate and increasing the rider weight. The biggest one of these is determining the differences between what is "high" and "low" speed. If you have a leverage ratio of say 2:1, the shock's shaft speed will be double what it is on a bike that has a leverage ratio of 4:1, for any given speed of the wheel (wheel speed). This may mean that while the shock is in the low speed region on the 4:1 bike, it's in the high speed region on the 2:1 bike. The peak speeds of the shock will obviously be double on the 2:1 bike (because the shock is moving half the speed of the wheel, instead of 1/4 the speed on the 4:1 bike).

Basically, because the shock is both moving faster (= higher force at the shock) AND has more leverage over the wheel, the difference in damping force for any given wheel speed is actually close to squared relative to the difference in leverage ratio. In other words, if the leverage ratio is halved, at any given speed you may get roughly double the damping force at the shock, multiplied by double the leverage over the rear wheel, meaning you end up with FOUR times the damping force at the rear wheel (which is obviously where it actually counts).

Real world example, compare a Sunday (2.67:1 avg leverage ratio) to a V10 (3.64:1 leverage ratio) - the V10 has a 36% higher leverage ratio, which means that for comparable performance (wheel rate), the low/high speed threshold (in terms of speed, not force) needs to be about 26% LOWER in a shock valved for the V10, yet the damping force provided at that particular speed needs to be about 85% higher. Big difference right there, so you can see why the leverage ratio is a very important factor - for the masses, arguably moreso than rider weight.
 
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rewster

Monkey
Feb 3, 2007
245
0
charlotte nc
roco, betches. sure, they fall apart alot.....i've actually rebuilt mine in the snowshoe parking lot, after it sprung a leak and kicked me over teh bars in a race. mirrored my shimstacks to the DB's, and it's one of the best shocks i've ridden

on a sunday, btw
 

SuboptimusPrime

Turbo Monkey
Aug 18, 2005
1,658
1,633
NorCack
There was great quote from Vouilloz back in '93 or '94: "a long as my front wheel is on the ground, i don't care where my back wheel is."
I completely agree with this statement, in fact I think I've uttered those very words myself--cool that the Alien had the same thought as hacky old me. Given the choice between good fork and good rear shock, the fork wins hands down...I just feel like the front end decides where you are going and if you can muscle and/or finese it to where it needs to be, you'll come out ok...if your front wheel is all over or not in contact with the ground you've got no shot of making it through a turn or holding a line...
 

djamgils

Monkey
Aug 31, 2007
349
0
Holland
X-post from Farkin since I thought it was relevant..

Taken from PM cos I thought it was relevant to the discussion, hope you don't mind Rod.



There are some similarities yeah, like I said if you were at the extreme ends of the weight spectrum the stock BOS tunes might not work ideally for you, and maybe adopting a lighter-valved setup would work better.

However, there are a couple of distinct differences between increasing your leverage rate and increasing the rider weight. The biggest one of these is determining the differences between what is "high" and "low" speed. If you have a leverage ratio of say 2:1, the shock's shaft speed will be double what it is on a bike that has a leverage ratio of 4:1, for any given speed of the wheel (wheel speed). This may mean that while the shock is in the low speed region on the 4:1 bike, it's in the high speed region on the 2:1 bike. The peak speeds of the shock will obviously be double on the 2:1 bike (because the shock is moving half the speed of the wheel, instead of 1/4 the speed on the 4:1 bike).

Basically, because the shock is both moving faster (= higher force at the shock) AND has more leverage over the wheel, the difference in damping force for any given wheel speed is actually close to squared relative to the difference in leverage ratio. In other words, if the leverage ratio is halved, at any given speed you may get roughly double the damping force at the shock, multiplied by double the leverage over the rear wheel, meaning you end up with FOUR times the damping force at the rear wheel (which is obviously where it actually counts).

Real world example, compare a Sunday (2.67:1 avg leverage ratio) to a V10 (3.64:1 leverage ratio) - the V10 has a 36% higher leverage ratio, which means that for comparable performance, the low/high speed threshold (in terms of speed, not force) needs to be about 26% LOWER in a shock valved for the V10, yet the damping force provided at that particular speed needs to be about 85% higher. Big difference right there, so you can see why the leverage ratio is a very important factor - for the masses, arguably moreso than rider weight.
Now I realize why it was possible for trek to have a custom tuned shock for the session 88 without knowing the actual weight of the rider. Ofcourse they have a rough range belonging to a size of frame.

I expect it wont be possible to change the damping curve of the ccdb to match all leverage ratios because you would need separate control of the transition point for where you go from LSC to HSC but also the ability to control the magnitude of the damping.
I presume that with the CCDB you adjust the preload on the HSC valve? Does this mean you only shift the curve up and down? or can you also adjust the gradient?
 

Steve M

Turbo Monkey
Mar 3, 2007
1,991
45
Whistler
Now I realize why it was possible for trek to have a custom tuned shock for the session 88 without knowing the actual weight of the rider. Ofcourse they have a rough range belonging to a size of frame.

I expect it wont be possible to change the damping curve of the ccdb to match all leverage ratios because you would need separate control of the transition point for where you go from LSC to HSC but also the ability to control the magnitude of the damping.
I presume that with the CCDB you adjust the preload on the HSC valve? Does this mean you only shift the curve up and down? or can you also adjust the gradient?
I agree with the CCDB not being able to match all leverage ratios. Adjusters can only do so much.

Yeah the HSC adjuster adjusts preload on the poppet valve, but the relationship between the force holding the poppet valve down and the actual damping force isn't linear, because it's not purely static pressure that holds the poppet valve open. Couple this with the fact that more oil is forced through alternative circuits (eg the low speed circuit as well as the main piston shim stack) means that the adjuster may simultaneously adjust the HS/LS threshold as well as the gradient.

Unfortunately the idea that you can somehow adjust "everything" externally is a bit of a pipe dream with current technology. The CCDB is probably the closest thing we have to that (in the bike world at least) at the moment.

For what it's worth, I put the DHX back on today and rode it again. The CCDB is a bit nicer, as is the BOS, but anyone who reckons there's a serious night-and-day difference between those shocks is either capable of achieving ridiculously awesome setups that I've never found, or delusional. Given the time and effort I've put into tuning suspension over the past few years, I'd like to hope it's not the former.
 

djamgils

Monkey
Aug 31, 2007
349
0
Holland
For what it's worth, I put the DHX back on today and rode it again. The CCDB is a bit nicer, as is the BOS, but anyone who reckons there's a serious night-and-day difference between those shocks is either capable of achieving ridiculously awesome setups that I've never found, or delusional. Given the time and effort I've put into tuning suspension over the past few years, I'd like to hope it's not the former.
Or is not capable of achieving a good setup with the dhx.
I wonder if it is perhaps your weight, bike and riding style is why you like the dhx so much and cant feel much of an improvement.
And what also could be a problem in discussing improvements is that you might look at actual time improvement at the finish line while somebody else looks at the improvement in feel and not just performance.

For me there is a night and day difference in feel between the dhx ccdb and bos even between the ccdb and bos. But I doubt how big the differences are in laptimes.
 

Steve M

Turbo Monkey
Mar 3, 2007
1,991
45
Whistler
Or is not capable of achieving a good setup with the dhx.
I wonder if it is perhaps your weight, bike and riding style is why you like the dhx so much and cant feel much of an improvement.
And what also could be a problem in discussing improvements is that you might look at actual time improvement at the finish line while somebody else looks at the improvement in feel and not just performance.

For me there is a night and day difference in feel between the dhx ccdb and bos even between the ccdb and bos. But I doubt how big the differences are in laptimes.
There is a difference in feel, for sure. Bouncing on the bike, I could tell all three shocks apart immediately in a blind test, I am 100% confident of that - they are pretty distinctive. But that difference in feel, I find isn't translating into huge differences in stability, harshness, traction etc. As I said in the BOS review, it might add up to a couple of seconds on a racetrack, or it might not.

You're right that it may be possible that being a heavy guy (or just with my particular riding style), I can get the DHX working better for me than many people feel they can, but I honestly reckon that a lot of this is just wankery when it comes to real-world performance. Maybe I can't ride fast enough to tell, maybe the terrain I ride isn't fast/rough enough to make the differences clear, but somehow I doubt either of these is really the case. Maybe I'm not that sensitive, but I find myself commenting on a lot of stuff when I ride other people's bikes that they say they hadn't noticed, so I doubt it's that either.

However, I am happy to admit that there are potentially dozens of reasons why other people might notice bigger differences than me... but IMO stock dampers are simply quite good these days. You can fine-tune but huge gains aren't there to be made anymore - all you can do is get pickier in order to justify the more expensive stuff. Not that I think that's necessarily a bad thing, consumer expectations will always rise to meet the standard of products on the market, or vice versa. Whatever - I'll probably always be one of the picky ones that buy the expensive stuff anyway :)
 

weedkilla

Monkey
Jul 6, 2008
362
10
I've been following these threads on both farkin and RM and while I know we are all interested in racing where the only thing that matters is the time you post, feel MATTERS.
I've found I can make massive changes to my setup and still post similar times - swapping DH bike to AM bike for an extreme example. However I can progress my riding faster when I am completely confident in my setup and am comfortable with how it feels. So to me feel is most important when I am learning a new track, trying a new line or trying to eek out some more speed and riding on the ragged edge - above safe racing speed.

Oh and damn you Socket now I want a Bos!
 

buckoW

Turbo Monkey
Mar 1, 2007
3,777
4,699
Champery, Switzerland
but IMO stock dampers are simply quite good these days. You can fine-tune but huge gains aren't there to be made anymore
I think the speed sensitive custom stuff is the future. No adjustments but damping that is capable of opening up or deadening up depending on shaft speed. For example some situations require loads of LSC where others do not. What if those situations are on the same trail and readjusting your suspension is not an option. I had a 40 cartridge this year that would do this. I got off line once at speed and the fork completely saved me. It stayed so far up in it's travel, where a normal 40 cart would bottom and pitch me over the bars, that I was blown away. On the rest of the trail the fork rides pretty lively.

I think the chassis are all good these days but some suspension tuners are pushing the envelope.
 

Npdh

Monkey
Apr 29, 2007
141
0
Excelent review !

Maybe a couples pics could be nice haha... :) Just joking.-

I have a doubt tho...

Udi talks about the predictability of the shock when we ran... Is more difficult to understand and manage the CCBD v/s DHX/Roco etc ?? I mean... The CCDB is a more evolutioned shock in terms of compression and rebound so could be more complicated to predict the shock in a track ?

Dunno if I express in the better words :P Hope so...
 

djamgils

Monkey
Aug 31, 2007
349
0
Holland
I have no idea of what you mean.

Do you mean that the ccdb is more difficult to set up then the dhx? Or do you mean the way it reacts/works on trail?
 

Npdh

Monkey
Apr 29, 2007
141
0
I have no idea of what you mean.

Do you mean that the ccdb is more difficult to set up then the dhx? Or do you mean the way it reacts/works on trail?


The way it reacts/works on trail... I mean... On the DHX is a shock that won't change too much of what you feel already on the parking lot, instead, the CCDB is different stuff from what I have read.
 

Biffff

Monkey
Jan 10, 2006
913
0
Yeah but on what bike, with what leverage ratio? I like my setup soft as a general rule, and my bike has a reasonably low leverage ratio (2.83:1). If you're on a V10 or an Orange or whatever, you're going to need something a bit stiffer
Giant Faith.......around 2.8 or 2.9:1 leverage ratio. I like a soft setup too and I'm getting about 35% sag with a 450.
 

buckoW

Turbo Monkey
Mar 1, 2007
3,777
4,699
Champery, Switzerland
The way it reacts/works on trail... I mean... On the DHX is a shock that won't change too much of what you feel already on the parking lot, instead, the CCDB is different stuff from what I have read.
I think it just takes a bit longer to get to know what it will do in different circumstances/situations. Good point though.
 

Avy Rider

Monkey
Feb 26, 2003
287
0
Muskoka,Canada
One little comment for the guys who are wondering (surprised even) that another rider of about the same weight on the same bike runs a significantly higher or lower spring rate than themselves... Shock springs are often not even close to being the rate they are labeled and sold as. Sometimes even a 50 lb difference from what it says on the spring! The only way to compare set ups is to use the exact spring as the other person or at least be sure that each is actually the same lb rating.

This entire thread only reinforces why I let Craig at Avalanche set up my shock based on the information I gave him about my bike,riding style,weight etc. He ensures that the suspension reacts in the way it is intended to give optimal chassis control and open up to absorb high speed events as needed. Yes there is a tuning range available but it is limited so as to only provided smaller changes than a "one shock fits all" type of adjuster range.

The "dead" feeling means that you aren't being subjected to the same forces as the suspension is. ;)
 
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Kanye West

220# bag of hacktastic
Aug 31, 2006
3,740
470
The tolerances on most steel springs are +/- 15% of the marked weight. By the time you're at a 450-500# spring, that's an entire step off what it's supposed to be.