Since a few of you have been keen to hear my thoughts on the CCDB as compared to the BOS, here we go...
Installed the CCDB a couple of weeks ago, have a few good rides under it now, fairly happy with the setup. Specs and setup are included so any other CCDB owners can get some idea of the setup I'm running. This isn't a full comprehensive review, but I have a fair idea of how the thing goes now, and I'll update this as I learn more.
Bike: Banshee Legend
Average leverage ratio: 2.83:1
Leverage rate curve: slightly progressive to linear
Rider weight: 93kg/205lbs
Spring rate: 350lb/in (same as I ran on the BOS)
Current setup:
LSC: 8 clicks in from full out
HSC: 1.25 turns in
LSR: 3 clicks in
HSR: 1.875 turns in
Installing the CCDB is a pain in the arse because of the spherical bearings/o-rings that the spacers sit against, but once you work out how to do it you stop flinging whatever's within arm's reach at the walls and get it in there without too much drama. The spherical bearings and the sealing o-rings are cool, they mean you can't side-load the shock. Again not quite as frictionless as the needle bearings in the BOS but still a step up from standard DU bushes. Not sure if these things are meant to be greased from time to time, anyone know?
The CCDB feels a bit different to the BOS in the carpark, it feels like it has more compression at the very low speeds, and while it feels smooth and a tad less sticky than a DHX, it doesn't have that "holy crap that's insane" feeling of smoothness/complete lack of stiction that the BOS does.
Setup is both complicated and simplified compared to the likes of DHXes cos the shock feels wack in the carpark and it's hard to get an idea of a good baseline setting until it's on a trail. With a DHX you can get some idea of how it'll go on a trail based on its carpark feel, because you only have one rebound adjuster and effectively one compression adjustment (both propedal and air pressure do much the same thing - proven with dyno testing). With the CCDB, even with both compression adjusters backed right off, it still feels like it has quite a bit of LSC in the carpark, yet as soon as you actually ride it like that you can feel it opening right up and dumping the bike through its travel very easily (at least, at my weight you can - lighter guys may not notice this).
The reason I say setup is simplified in a way compared to a DHX is precisely because you can only rely on actual riding of the thing to set it up (which is what should be done with any shock really, but carpark testing does tend to influence most people's setup IMO). Only once you get it on the trail do you notice whether the thing feels dead, or kicks off lips, or blows through travel or whatever, cos in the carpark it just feels dead no matter what your setup is.
What complicates things, especially if you're not a tech nerd who knows a fair bit about suspension (dare I suggest such a thing on the internet? haha) is actually working out what the adjustments affect ride-wise. Also, the idea that all the adjustments are completely independent is BS, for example you definitely notice that LSC is affected by the HSC settings when the HSC is set very lightly. Not that this is a surprise of course, it's just the pesky real world interfering with idealistic marketing as per usual. The adjustments are definitely MORE independent than say the compression adjustments (propedal and air pressure) in a DHX, but naturally there is some overlap in the effects.
I found it more difficult with the CCDB to get it to remain lively without blowing through travel or kicking, than I did with the BOS. I think the BOS's initial tune (which is set up for your leverage rate etc) and comparatively small adjustment range get you a good baseline setting with no work from the rider, that the CCDB makes the tuner work for. Whereas it's next to impossible to mess up the BOS's settings badly, there is a fair bit more potential for it with the CCDB. If you don’t know what you’re doing, or what to look for, you may not get the CCDB working to its full potential.
Speaking of which, I think the full potential of the CCDB does come fairly close to the BOS – after a few days of tinkering, I did manage to get it feeling pretty similar (though not quite as sensitive on the super small stuff) to how the BOS was out of the box. On-trail setup of the CCDB is much more convenient than the BOS cos they give you this cool little tool to do it with (whereas the BOS requires a screwdriver and a socket or spanner), which I have to say I really love and will probably never ride without even when I’m completely set on my settings.
The compression tuning of the CCDB feels a bit different to the BOS, as I mentioned before it seems to have a bit more compression at very low speeds, and I found that unlike the BOS, cranking up the LSC too much did deaden it quite a bit, to the point where I was having difficulty jumping the thing. At 7 clicks in, it didn’t have quite enough LSC, at 9 it didn’t want to jump very well, so I settled on 8 which seemed to work quite well. I was surprised at how much of a difference a single click makes, and ended up using the HSC adjuster a bit more. Without dyno testing back to back, I’d say using a bit less LSC and a bit more HSC (in terms of wound-on adjustments) on the CCDB did give a feeling more like the strong mid-range damping that the BOS has.
The dual rebound adjusters are pretty cool too, though I can absolutely see how you could completely root your rebound setup by misusing these. I found it worked quite well to set the LSR reasonably quick and use the HSR adjustment to control how the bike reacted off sharp lips and bigger hits, basically just balancing the bike out. This is a similar approach to how BOS seem to have set their rebound adjustments up, but is something I had only specifically considered trying with the CCDB because it seemed to work so well with the BOS.
Cane Creek do give you some pretty good instructions in their manual, as well as explanations of how everything works, which is pretty cool. The setup instructions are better than most but there is still room for improvement – letting people know what the issues with excessive LSC are, for example, would be good. Again though, better than the instructions that Fox, RS etc give you for setup.
As for comparisons to a DHX, I’d say the CCDB is more polished and lets you control your setup more precisely, but it also gives you plenty of options to set stuff up pretty badly (in fairness, you can set up a DHX like absolute crap too), which is IMO where the BOS wins out. I think between my own best efforts setting up the DHX (no custom valving or whatever) and the CCDB, there isn’t that big a difference in on the track really (again, not night and day, but the BOS wasn’t that hugely different either). Small advantages here and there, but straight-lining through rough stuff, or as far as additional traction goes, there’s not a whole lot in it. The CCDB can be set up better than the DHX in the sense that you can use the damping more without deadening the ride as much (or making it excessively harsh like slowing down DHX rebound/cranking the compression too much can do) but the BOS is a bit better again in that regard.
So far I haven’t managed to get the thing to spike/hydro-lock like a few guys said have happened to them (eg William42?), maybe because I have the new tune in the DB, I’m not actually sure. I have ridden it on some very rough, high speed stuff so I’m fairly confident that it’s not doing anything weird.
Opinion at the moment: great shock. I think it does have some advantages over a DHX, and if you know what you’re doing you can get it pretty damn close to the BOS. In fairness, the BOS is tuned to your bike from the factory, whereas the CCDB is more like one-size-fits-all with the wide ranges of adjustment. Right now I reckon the BOS edges it out with slightly better sensitivity/less friction, a bit livelier feel and a more foolproof setup (though less convenient to make changes cos you need tools to do it, as compared to the nifty little Cane Creek thing they give you), but I think you’d be very hard pressed to find anyone who was unhappy with either shock once properly setup (possible exception being people with low-leverage ratio bikes not liking the CCDB). I’m not about to sell the CCDB to buy a BOS, and if I owned a BOS I wouldn’t be trying to swap either. As always, the differences ARE the small details, anyone upgrading from a Vivid/DHX to a BOS/CCDB/whatever should be well aware of that. Depending on your perception of the situation, these small details might be a big deal, that's a call that you'll have to make for yourself.
May update this later on if I find some magical setting that gives me a magic-carpet ride as well as no perceptible movement in any situation, and also delivers me half a dozen llamas that lactate ice-cold wheat beer, but I’m pretty sure to get that extra 200% performance, you really need an Avalanche
P.S. to the trolls, you know who you are, please don't wreck this thread like you did the last one. If you don't have something constructive or relevant to say, pipe down.
Installed the CCDB a couple of weeks ago, have a few good rides under it now, fairly happy with the setup. Specs and setup are included so any other CCDB owners can get some idea of the setup I'm running. This isn't a full comprehensive review, but I have a fair idea of how the thing goes now, and I'll update this as I learn more.
Bike: Banshee Legend
Average leverage ratio: 2.83:1
Leverage rate curve: slightly progressive to linear
Rider weight: 93kg/205lbs
Spring rate: 350lb/in (same as I ran on the BOS)
Current setup:
LSC: 8 clicks in from full out
HSC: 1.25 turns in
LSR: 3 clicks in
HSR: 1.875 turns in
Installing the CCDB is a pain in the arse because of the spherical bearings/o-rings that the spacers sit against, but once you work out how to do it you stop flinging whatever's within arm's reach at the walls and get it in there without too much drama. The spherical bearings and the sealing o-rings are cool, they mean you can't side-load the shock. Again not quite as frictionless as the needle bearings in the BOS but still a step up from standard DU bushes. Not sure if these things are meant to be greased from time to time, anyone know?
The CCDB feels a bit different to the BOS in the carpark, it feels like it has more compression at the very low speeds, and while it feels smooth and a tad less sticky than a DHX, it doesn't have that "holy crap that's insane" feeling of smoothness/complete lack of stiction that the BOS does.
Setup is both complicated and simplified compared to the likes of DHXes cos the shock feels wack in the carpark and it's hard to get an idea of a good baseline setting until it's on a trail. With a DHX you can get some idea of how it'll go on a trail based on its carpark feel, because you only have one rebound adjuster and effectively one compression adjustment (both propedal and air pressure do much the same thing - proven with dyno testing). With the CCDB, even with both compression adjusters backed right off, it still feels like it has quite a bit of LSC in the carpark, yet as soon as you actually ride it like that you can feel it opening right up and dumping the bike through its travel very easily (at least, at my weight you can - lighter guys may not notice this).
The reason I say setup is simplified in a way compared to a DHX is precisely because you can only rely on actual riding of the thing to set it up (which is what should be done with any shock really, but carpark testing does tend to influence most people's setup IMO). Only once you get it on the trail do you notice whether the thing feels dead, or kicks off lips, or blows through travel or whatever, cos in the carpark it just feels dead no matter what your setup is.
What complicates things, especially if you're not a tech nerd who knows a fair bit about suspension (dare I suggest such a thing on the internet? haha) is actually working out what the adjustments affect ride-wise. Also, the idea that all the adjustments are completely independent is BS, for example you definitely notice that LSC is affected by the HSC settings when the HSC is set very lightly. Not that this is a surprise of course, it's just the pesky real world interfering with idealistic marketing as per usual. The adjustments are definitely MORE independent than say the compression adjustments (propedal and air pressure) in a DHX, but naturally there is some overlap in the effects.
I found it more difficult with the CCDB to get it to remain lively without blowing through travel or kicking, than I did with the BOS. I think the BOS's initial tune (which is set up for your leverage rate etc) and comparatively small adjustment range get you a good baseline setting with no work from the rider, that the CCDB makes the tuner work for. Whereas it's next to impossible to mess up the BOS's settings badly, there is a fair bit more potential for it with the CCDB. If you don’t know what you’re doing, or what to look for, you may not get the CCDB working to its full potential.
Speaking of which, I think the full potential of the CCDB does come fairly close to the BOS – after a few days of tinkering, I did manage to get it feeling pretty similar (though not quite as sensitive on the super small stuff) to how the BOS was out of the box. On-trail setup of the CCDB is much more convenient than the BOS cos they give you this cool little tool to do it with (whereas the BOS requires a screwdriver and a socket or spanner), which I have to say I really love and will probably never ride without even when I’m completely set on my settings.
The compression tuning of the CCDB feels a bit different to the BOS, as I mentioned before it seems to have a bit more compression at very low speeds, and I found that unlike the BOS, cranking up the LSC too much did deaden it quite a bit, to the point where I was having difficulty jumping the thing. At 7 clicks in, it didn’t have quite enough LSC, at 9 it didn’t want to jump very well, so I settled on 8 which seemed to work quite well. I was surprised at how much of a difference a single click makes, and ended up using the HSC adjuster a bit more. Without dyno testing back to back, I’d say using a bit less LSC and a bit more HSC (in terms of wound-on adjustments) on the CCDB did give a feeling more like the strong mid-range damping that the BOS has.
The dual rebound adjusters are pretty cool too, though I can absolutely see how you could completely root your rebound setup by misusing these. I found it worked quite well to set the LSR reasonably quick and use the HSR adjustment to control how the bike reacted off sharp lips and bigger hits, basically just balancing the bike out. This is a similar approach to how BOS seem to have set their rebound adjustments up, but is something I had only specifically considered trying with the CCDB because it seemed to work so well with the BOS.
Cane Creek do give you some pretty good instructions in their manual, as well as explanations of how everything works, which is pretty cool. The setup instructions are better than most but there is still room for improvement – letting people know what the issues with excessive LSC are, for example, would be good. Again though, better than the instructions that Fox, RS etc give you for setup.
As for comparisons to a DHX, I’d say the CCDB is more polished and lets you control your setup more precisely, but it also gives you plenty of options to set stuff up pretty badly (in fairness, you can set up a DHX like absolute crap too), which is IMO where the BOS wins out. I think between my own best efforts setting up the DHX (no custom valving or whatever) and the CCDB, there isn’t that big a difference in on the track really (again, not night and day, but the BOS wasn’t that hugely different either). Small advantages here and there, but straight-lining through rough stuff, or as far as additional traction goes, there’s not a whole lot in it. The CCDB can be set up better than the DHX in the sense that you can use the damping more without deadening the ride as much (or making it excessively harsh like slowing down DHX rebound/cranking the compression too much can do) but the BOS is a bit better again in that regard.
So far I haven’t managed to get the thing to spike/hydro-lock like a few guys said have happened to them (eg William42?), maybe because I have the new tune in the DB, I’m not actually sure. I have ridden it on some very rough, high speed stuff so I’m fairly confident that it’s not doing anything weird.
Opinion at the moment: great shock. I think it does have some advantages over a DHX, and if you know what you’re doing you can get it pretty damn close to the BOS. In fairness, the BOS is tuned to your bike from the factory, whereas the CCDB is more like one-size-fits-all with the wide ranges of adjustment. Right now I reckon the BOS edges it out with slightly better sensitivity/less friction, a bit livelier feel and a more foolproof setup (though less convenient to make changes cos you need tools to do it, as compared to the nifty little Cane Creek thing they give you), but I think you’d be very hard pressed to find anyone who was unhappy with either shock once properly setup (possible exception being people with low-leverage ratio bikes not liking the CCDB). I’m not about to sell the CCDB to buy a BOS, and if I owned a BOS I wouldn’t be trying to swap either. As always, the differences ARE the small details, anyone upgrading from a Vivid/DHX to a BOS/CCDB/whatever should be well aware of that. Depending on your perception of the situation, these small details might be a big deal, that's a call that you'll have to make for yourself.
May update this later on if I find some magical setting that gives me a magic-carpet ride as well as no perceptible movement in any situation, and also delivers me half a dozen llamas that lactate ice-cold wheat beer, but I’m pretty sure to get that extra 200% performance, you really need an Avalanche
P.S. to the trolls, you know who you are, please don't wreck this thread like you did the last one. If you don't have something constructive or relevant to say, pipe down.
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