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CCDB v.s. Vivid 5.1 v.s. Roco WC on Shockwave 9.5

Discussion in 'Downhill & Freeride' started by nickfr2000, Mar 26, 2008.

  1. nickfr2000

    nickfr2000 Chimp

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    I have a Mountain Cylce Shockwave 9.5 that has a Romic D at the back and Zoke 888R Works at the front. I'm currently happy with my setup right now but am wondering if any of the 3 rear shocks could even make it better. I only do recreational DH with the bike so weight and low center of gravity isn't much of a concern for me. I'm very happy with my 888R Works because of it's feel and tall AC height which is beneficial for my type of riding so I don't plan to update it.




    As far as I know, my Romic D is a twin tube shock that has general rebound & compression adjustments as well as a reactor valve that limits pedal bob. Both the RS Vivid 5.1 and the CC Double Barrel are twin tube shocks that have more specific adjustments namely (LSC, LSR, HSR for the Vivid) and (LSC, HSC, LSR, HSR for the CCDB). The Roco WC on the other hand is a Mono Tube shock that has general rebound, high speed compression, and bottom out air shrader valve.

    So far I've gotten inputs from a few people that have experience on these shocks. One guy I met has an Sinister R9 that came with a Romic which was upgraded to a Roco WC. I rode his bike in the parking lot and it was indeed plush but then again he's about 70 lbs lighter than me. He did claim that the Roco WC is plusher than the Romic. Another guy from the MC forums has the same bike as mine and upgraded from a 5th element to the CCDB. He has nothing but excellent reviews about the shock and claimed that it really made the bike feel a whole lot better. My buddy with the IH 7 point also upgraded from a 5th element to the RS Vivid 5.1. He told me that the adjustment range of the Vivid is so much wider than the 5th element and that it still doesn't bob even without pedal platform. He did tell me though that he doubts if the Vivid could be plusher than my Romic even at it's plushest setting even if you factor out the difference in travel.

    So to sum it up the Roco would be plusher but I'm afraid it might wallow too much and just blow thru the midstroke. The Vivid on the other hand might allow me to have more control with my travel but my friend warned me that it might not equal my Romic in terms of plushness. The CCDB would definitely have everything but is too expensive. As a matter of fact I can buy 2 Rocos for the price of 1 CCDB. I plan to buy my new shock at the 2nd week of April.

    Your thoughts please.
     

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  2. FCLinder

    FCLinder Turbo Monkey

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    Either way you go with the DB or Vivid you will like them both. Hands down the two best rear shocks you can get in the US right now (My Opinion). Now it just comes down to how much you want to spend? If you have the money get the DB. If you want to save a little to put into other parts or a Ti spring get the Vivid.

    This is my thoughts about the Vivid and if you have not been in DH long you may not know what I am getting ready to say. If you ever had an old FOX Vinilla RC and went from running it to a Romic when it came out, that is the same feel I got from going from a DHX 5.0 to the Vivid. Night and day. I would say going to a DB would even be better. Someone once told me if your going to spend a lot on a front Fork (High End), then why not the same for a rear shock? You want both front and rear to match up for performance.

    Good luck man!!!!
     
  3. cheetaprowlerDH

    cheetaprowlerDH Turbo Monkey

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    if you ever decide to sell your romic let me know!:biggrin:

    but relative to your question, you really dont need all the fancy adjustments of the CCDB, the Vivid seems to be a reliable shock with enough adjustments for an adjustment-centered rider, and the Roco is an all around good shock with everything you need and no more...
    CCDB will dent funds
    Vivid and Roco are good, reliable, and cheap for their performance: best bet IMO
     
  4. Hulkamaniac

    Hulkamaniac Monkey

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    Nick, your bike is set-up very much like mine (9.5 w/ 888 and gustavs) and I've followed all the threads on mtbr's Mtn Cycle forum regarding the shock choices for the 9.5. Here's my thoughts:

    When I got the frame it came with a 5th Element, a very dead feeling shock to me. The stable platform/valving was just my thing, it made the bike feel very solid when pedaling, but a wooden beast when the going got rough.

    I swapped to a Roco WC in 2007 and loved it from the start. It's made the 9.5 very active, but not what I would call wallow or overly active. The Roco is very plush and smooth throughout it's entire stroke, which is exactly what I wanted. I have no complaints with the Roco, but I keep thinking that I am missing something with all the CCDB talk.

    For 2008 I am debating whether I want to get a CCDB or another Roco WC. I'm probably going to swap the 9.5x3 for a 9x2.75 to get the bottom bracket lower and slacken out the head angle...something I have always wanted with the 9.5. For me, it boils down to two things......the CCDB is great, it's felt amazing on each and every bike I have ever tried it on, but it's expensive as you know. The Roco is a comprimise of sorts, as it's relatively affordable and the performance is on par with a Fox DHX (standard of sorts) or maybe better, depends on who you talk to.

    The question I keep asking myself is do I simply nut up and drop the coin for the best or is the Roco a good comprimise??? Is the CCDB going to make me a better rider and a faster racer???
     
  5. Curious_George

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    throw a ccdb on that
     
  6. Eurotrash

    Eurotrash Monkey

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    If you can afford it get the ccdb, I got mine a week ago and I have to say it's amazing, you can tune every aspect of the ride seperately without any effect on another. you can tune out pedal bob without any effect on traction, slow compression without affecting rebound...
    I would also consider keeping the same length shock as standard as you will be running a much softer spring with the ccdb and this will lower/slacken the bike anyway.
     
  7. profro

    profro Turbo Monkey

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    Have you ever ridden a properly adjusted CCDB?

    The Vivid has been on the market for how long? Do you think that is long enough to claim reliability?
     
  8. bushrider

    bushrider Monkey

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    if you switch out a 9.5 X 3 shock for a 9 X 2.75 the shock will be 0.25" shorter at full compression (9.5 - 3 = 6.5 vs 9 - 2.75 = 6.25).

    This may cause frame/shock interference and will most likely mess up the suspension rate.

    IMO the change is too drastic.
    You would be better off getting an Avalanche 9.25 X 2.75, this will drop your BB and slacken the head angle without effecting the suspension rate too much and without risking issues with frame interference.

    Cavedeweller converted his 9.5 X 3 avalanche on his Turner DHR to 9.25 X 2.75 to reduce travel and drop the BB height. The turner DHR is a very similar design to the shockwave (single pivot with a progressive linkage driving the shock).

    IMHO the Avalanche is a much nicer shock than the Roco WC. I've never ridden the CCDB or Vivid. The Avalanche is also by far the most durable shock on the market. I've seen Avalanches hold up for several years on high leverage frames (super 8) without issues.
     
  9. cheetaprowlerDH

    cheetaprowlerDH Turbo Monkey

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    if you seriously overlooked what i said, i said you dont REALLY NEED all the fancy adjustments on the CCDB- learn some flow and dont 100% rely on you suspension to do your work for you... flowing is faster than plowing (yes i know nickfr2000 is just doing weekend-warrior stly DH so he MAY not be too concerned with race oriented speed- i'm just stating a point)

    i also said the vivid SEEMS TO BE a reliable shock, i never said anything else... about either of them

    i beleive i have jumped on the General Lee suspension bandwagon:busted:
     
  10. ska todd

    ska todd Turbo Monkey

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    The CCDB will NOT fit on the Shockwave. The Vivid fit has not yet been oficially confirmed on this frame. Roco's do fit and are spec'd on 08 Shockwaves.

    -ska todd
     
  11. profro

    profro Turbo Monkey

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    If you have ridden a properly adjusted CCDB, then you'll understand why you need all the fancy adjustments.

    It still makes me laugh that you think a shock which has been on the market for less than half a year seems reliable. I guess that is a loose term.
     
  12. jonKranked

    jonKranked Press Button, Receive Stupid

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    I'm with pro-fro on this one. Not to pick on you or anything. The CCDB doesn't have a lot of fancy adjustments, it has everything it should. Take some time to read up on how the shock works, and you'll understand exactly why it has what it does - true independent rebound and compression, each with hi/lo adjusters. IMHO, this should be the baseline for all dampers.
     
  13. nickfr2000

    nickfr2000 Chimp

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    What a bummer! How did you know this? As far as I know, there is already one guy that upgraded from a 5th element to a CCDB for his Shockwave 9.5. I have not seen the actual pics though. I'm gonna PM him.
     
  14. ska todd

    ska todd Turbo Monkey

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    I personally checked w/ Krien at MC-Europe. He stated it will make contact and they have confirmed this through their own fitments. You might want to check with your friend for some pics to prove it, and if you do have to break out the dremel that you aren't compromising any structural integrity (though you will certainly void warranties).

    -ska todd
     
  15. jonKranked

    jonKranked Press Button, Receive Stupid

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    i thought ska todd was yoda???
     
  16. ChrisKring

    ChrisKring Turbo Monkey

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    Thread derail

    Todd: where are you working now?
     
  17. Willy Vanilly

    Willy Vanilly Monkey

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    I can't say I know anything about the Vivid but I rode a friend's bike (Bottlerocket) w/ a CCDB over the weekend and it was incredible. He's got a good 50 pounds on me but even with too stiff a spring the thing felt great. Very controlled rear suspension action. It really made me begin to rethink how a shock should feel on the trail; it "popped" when I wanted to hop stuff and soaked up the big hits without spiking or anything.

    Hopefully the Float R that I'm having pushed this week will feel just as nice (even if it's just a simple air shock).
     
  18. nickfr2000

    nickfr2000 Chimp

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    MC9.5 responded to me and said he's gonna post some pics of his Shockwave 9.5 with CCDB 2nite. I also got in touch with Cane Creek and Gary, the guy that I spoke to, did not see the Shockwave 9.5 in their compatibility list. Guess I'll have to call back on Monday and talk to Malcom of Cane Creek to clarify things. Gary mentioned that it takes a couple of days for them to ship out the shock because each is custom built to the rider and bike.

    We'll see how it goes but I'm kinda decided on the CCDB. Hopefully everything works out right cuz I want the seperate high and low speed compression and rebound adjustments of the CCDB.
     
  19. davep

    davep Turbo Monkey

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    Take this for what it is worth:

    It looks to me like you have an OEM version of the 888. It appears to have only one top adjustment knob? Either way, the older 888s had VERY little low speed compression control. Some of this could be improved with the LSC sleeve (not sure if you have that or not) but it was still a VERY active fork (works treatment does NOT custom tune a fork...the cartrages in an 888 are sealed and cannot be custom modified).
    In fact compared to some of the current forks with true LSC adjustments....that fork dove like a $2 hooker. Now I am not trying to say that this is bad per se (I rode an 05 for two seasons), depending on you preference, just that those older 888s were on the FAR end of the 'lets use as little damping as possible' spectrum.

    Now the rear shocks that you are considering (ccdb (I do own one) and the Vivid (riden one a little bit)) (plus other new high-end shocks like BOS) all tend to be on the other end of the spectrum and comform to a newer theory in bicycle damping.
    This is to have an adjustable and functional low speed damper to control chasis movement (what your 888 is very poor at). This is combined with an adjustable 'blow off' of transition to the high speed damper curve, which tends to be relatively minimally damped. In the end, the idea is to keep the bike riding in the same position (not wallowing and changing angles and ride height) but allow at the same time for the wheels to move nearly undamped when confronted with a high speed (read square) hit. This is kind of like the idea of older platform shocks, but with better decoupling of high speed damping, little to no position sensitivity, and a lower, smoother threshold to that high speed curve.


    So what all this means is; if you put a CCDB (or similar) on your bike with an older 888 on the front, you will most likely end up with a bike that rides high and stable/controlled in the rear and low and wallowy in the front, exaggerating the differences in the two very different dampers. I am not sure this would be the best combination, no matter how good the CCDB rides.

    .........Just some of my thoughts after going through some drastic damper changes in the past couple of years.....take it or leave it
     
  20. Hulkamaniac

    Hulkamaniac Monkey

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    Yeah, spill the beans Seplavy!!!! j/k

    I've been riding mtn cycle for a long time now and love the bike, even with it's quirks. I've seen awesome MC employees come-and-go......if Todd has anything to do with MC now, well, that would just be killer!!! Fingers crossed!!!
     
  21. Spokompton

    Spokompton Monkey

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    I agree. Having a stable damped rear end and a non-damped front end feels terrible, esp. when heading downhill. Althogh, it can help a little by increasing the fork spring rate, but then you lose some smoothness.

    Every time I take my bike into the shop, they give me crap for running compression on my fork. Telling me to run it wide open to make it smoother :( Do people still live in the 1999 damping mindset or what? My fork has incredibly more traction and stability with the compression turned up a little.
     
  22. nickfr2000

    nickfr2000 Chimp

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    Thanks for the useful insight DAVEP! Mine is not an OEM fork. It's an '04 888R with rebound (right leg) and high speed compression (left leg) adjustments. You are right about the fact that it dives like a $2 hooka as it does not have any LSC sleeve / adjustment knob. Since my Romic only has general compression, I tend to run it 1 click from full open so that it would match the plushness (lack of LSC) of the 888R. The drawback of running minimal general compression on my Romic is it's tendecy to bottom out on medium jumps. That is why I am considering the CCDB because it has 4 separate circuits and being as such I thought that I can make it match the plushness and the ramp up characteristics of my 888R. My fork has alot of brake dive but is very good at fast multiple big hits. I don't want to upgrade to a newer 888rc2x or 888rc3 because I like the 605mm AC height of my old 888R compared to the 580mm AC height of the newer Zokes. Secondly, I tend to use alot less LSC when i go down hard & fast. I'm no racer, just a regular weekend warrior that wants the best match for the front & rear.

    So Davep, do you think the Roco WC would be the best match for my 888R more than my Romic, CCDB, or Vivid? Do you think that there is no way for the CCDB to match the characteristics of the 888R?



    So
     
  23. davep

    davep Turbo Monkey

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    It is a hard decision to make. I guess if it were me, I would look at the size of shock on the frame (is it the standard 9.5 X 3 that could be move to a new frame) and realistically try to determine how long you will ride this bike. It would suck to put 650 onto a shock, then brake your frame or just find the $$ to upgrade, just to find your super high-tech shock will not fit on the new bike......

    If you have the cash, the shock size is something that can move with you, and you are going ot keep the 9.5 for a while....go for it. Just make sure that the CCDB fits (at full compression). I trust Ska todd enough that I would check and double check to be absolutely sure. Just a fraction of a mm of contact a bottom out could easily destroy your shock, or frame, or both.

    If you want to, and are at least semi-mechanically inclined, your can home make a low-speed compression sleeve for that fork pretty easily. It will take some experimenting to get it dialed for you, but in my experience, it does help that fork a fair bit.
     
  24. JRogers

    JRogers talks too much

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    I disagree. As long as your fork has a decently low a-c length, you'll be okay. RM/mtbr member TWISTED who works for MC has run an 9x2.75. I have run a 8.75x2.75 without any contact or bad problems. It isn't as plush as the standard setup, but it isn't bad. I think a 9x2.75 would be a good compromise.
     
  25. blue

    blue boob hater

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    Goddamn I hope not, it would be a shame for Mr. Seplavy to be working at the steaming pile of trainwreck that is Mountain Cycle currently.
     
  26. nickfr2000

    nickfr2000 Chimp

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    MC 9.5 did follow thru with the pics and as I promised I'm gonna post it here cuz he is not registered. It's good to hear that there are no clearance issues so it seems that it should be a good to go for me.

    Here are the pics of his Shockwave 9.5 with the CCDB:









     
  27. -C-

    -C- Monkey

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    You make a very valid point, I have recently dropped a CCDB onto my Socom, and even running it at the suggested 'factory' settings its made the bike ride very different. In fact i'd go so far as to say the forks felt like sh*t in comparison ('08 40 RC2's).

    Going from a DHX 5 on the back, the bike tracks so well at the back now, but the front is skittering around all over the place. I've already on the first run had to take a whole heap of rebound out to try & balance it out, now I need to start playing with the compression side of things to try to dial some of the skittishness out.
     
  28. buckoW

    buckoW Turbo Monkey

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    Mountain Cycle makes some world cup linkages for the Shockwave that lower the bb and slacken the HA. I would look into getting the new links before running a shorter i2i shock.
     
  29. buckoW

    buckoW Turbo Monkey

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  30. -C-

    -C- Monkey

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    Trouble is, i'm probably up the top end of the medium spring, so it should feel pretty soft already...

    First race coming up in a couple of weeks so I need to get working on it for then. I hope its just a case of finding the right balance.
     
  31. nickfr2000

    nickfr2000 Chimp

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    I'm no suspension guru so I woudn't know the difference between old school and new school tuning. My personal preference though is a slightly more active front than the rear so I normally run a faster rebound at front. I'm not too keen about the weight transfer due to the lack of LSC on the front but it's 25mm AC height compared to newer 888 forks so it doesn't feel unstable / tipsy at front. On super steep situations, I only use the rear brakes to set-up or correct my line and the floating rear brake aides in making sure that the rear wheel gets more than adequate grip.

    Although I haven't owned a Fox 40, I did try em before. I did observe on my very limited time with it that it is buttery plush! It might also be because the guy who owns it is about 50 lbs lighter than me. My 888 is only plush at the first 50% of it travel then ramps up hard towards the end of travel.

    When you mentioned that the CCDB made the front end too skittish, my understanding is that the front end is too active / plush. Does it mean that the CCDB feels overdampened much like a platfrom shock? It might be that I'm expecting too much from the CCDB because I was expecting it to have a wide tuning range. I expected that it could be tuned to match the plushness of a Roco or the stiffness of a 5th element. If what you are saying is that it can't do that then thanks for letting me know before I spill out my $650.

    My only gripe with the Romic is that when you crank up the general compression in preparation for bigger hits, there is no way to isolate the low and high speed. With the Roco WC, it's got the same high speed compression adjustment as my old school 888R. It also has a boost shrader valve to aid in bottom out control. If the CCDB would feel too overdampened for my fork then would you say that the Roco WC would be a better match for it because it's got alot less LSC and would also be $250 less? Also if you equate the price, would a PUSH'd ROCO WC be a better bet than a CCDB?
     
  32. -C-

    -C- Monkey

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    I think maybe you misunderstood, or I didn't explain properly!

    When running with the DHX previously, I had no prior comparison, but since swapping it out for the CCDB, I can already notice how much better the shock feels and works. On a track I know quite well there is a small sleeper drop onto a big off camber bank which you need to traverse, then cut straight down. It's littered with lose rocks, roots etc and has always been a pretty tough section to get right. I always fought the bike across it, the back skipping about, and me losing my line down the camber. With the DB, I noticed I was immediately riding further off the back of the bike, and hitting this one section 7 or 8 times I found there to be big differences in my ability to hold the high line (never managed before) at a higher speed with more control, setting me up well for the next section. The only thing different is the shock from my last time out there. I was sceptical about it when I first got it, but it didn't cost me much money and if it was sh*t I would happily say so anywhere.

    My point was more that its highlighted the flaws in the forks to me now. They are no where near as controlled as they were, maybe because i'm expecting a good balance between the front & back. I'm sure its something over time I can dial out, or at worst case, get tuned out. The big shock for me was how much different they then felt on an otherwise identical bike.

    As for the CCDB, even with not much time on it, i'm pretty impressed.
     
  33. nickfr2000

    nickfr2000 Chimp

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    The Romic spewed oil yesterday after I bottomed out on a jump. It happened on a run when I backed off the preload by two turns to achieve a 35% sag. I hit a relatively small 4 foot drop to flat which I landed pretty nice but BAM the rear tire hit my seat and shredded up the plastic liner that trims the leather. It was the first time that happened and the Romic was toast! The ride down a gnarly rock garden was crappy as the Romic continued to spew oil.

    Now I wonder if the CCDB or the Roco WC could withstand bottom outs. I guess it's a good reason for me to replace it, send it for repair for future back-up use.
     
  34. Slater

    Slater Monkey

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    Romic is done with mountain bike stuff and most likely will not rebuild it for you. A friend of mine needed hers rebuilt and was basically told no, they wouldn't rebuild it.
     
  35. Alloy

    Alloy Monkey

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    I rode a faith with ccdb and 04 888 up front for a couple weeks... at the end of the day the bike rode way better with ccdb.

    ....You will notice the new feeling control and traction you get with the ccdb dwarfs how the old front end feels and this will cause you to spend even more money trying to find the holy grail of front wheel suspension as well.
     
  36. nickfr2000

    nickfr2000 Chimp

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    I guess we all have to wait and see as to what fork can match well with the CCDB.

    BTW I spoke with Roger of Romic and he gave me an RA# and told me that it's $34 to get it fixed. It would be my best solution till Malcom of Cane Creek gives me a good to go with regards to the fitment concerns as well as their 30 day back-order of the CCDB. For the moment, I'd have to settle for my Sin and San Andreas DNA.
     
  37. nickfr2000

    nickfr2000 Chimp

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    I just spoke with Malcom of Cane Creek and he did mention that the CCDB would work with the Shockwave 9.5 with the special Spring C Clip that should be available by the first week of May. For the moment I'm sending out my Romic for repair as Roger was kind enough to give me an RA#. It seems that the Romic would be custom tuned for me as Roger asked for my weight, bike, and riding style.