China is now the world's largest consumer

Jr_Bullit · Feb 17, 2005

Funny, though, how they fail to mention the ratio of goods consumed...China has a few more people than the US...so it makes sense they as a country would consume more, but on a per capita basis - the US is still the big guy. I'm not much good with math, but here's some calculator assisted figures based on that article:

China - 1.3 bil / 64 mil tonnes of meat = .049 per person
US - 297 mil / 38 mil tonnes of meat = .12 per person

China - 382 mil tonnes of grain = .29 per person
US - 278 mil tonnes of grain = .936 per person

China - 800 mil tonnes of coal = .62 per person
US - 574 mil tonnes of coal = 1.93 per person

I think on a per capita basis - the US still far exceeds China

(okay, and since I'm 100% positive my math skills suck - here's what I did so you smart people can correct it - take the tonnes of product and divide by the total number of people to get the number:
Coal: 800/1300 = .62 )

$tinkle · Feb 17, 2005

but wait, there's more:
http://www.worldviewofglobalwarming.org/

now do some of you kyoto treaty apologists see why that policy tool is just a tool?

MTB_Rob_NC · Feb 17, 2005

MMike said:
Wake up america! You've slipped!

JrB, has excellent points, but there is no stopping it. China has way more people. As their country, or more so their people become more developed (econimically), they will pass the US in every economic category.

fluff · Feb 17, 2005

Jr_Bullit said:
US - 297 mil / 38 mil tonnes of meat = .12 per person

Each person in the US eats .12 million tonnes of meat per annum?

That's 120,000,000 kilos!

Divided by 365...

328,767 kilos of meat per day.

No wonder you guys have an obesity problem.

Changleen · Feb 17, 2005

$tinkle said:
but wait, there's more:
http://www.worldviewofglobalwarming.org/

now do some of you kyoto treaty apologists see why that policy tool is just a tool?

Kyoto was looking good until the yanks demanded emmisions trading as part of it's structure, thus giving rich industrialised countries an easy out, then refused to even be a party to it. Nice job. Make sure it won't work as intended then ignore it anyway. Since then GW has systematically gutted your anti-pollution laws. You're still the biggest consumer and most wasteful society on earth by far. You're responsible for 25% of the world's polution. Not bad for 1-2% of the population.

The point about Kyoto is that the 144 countries who have signed up to at least give a **** about the planet and are trying to do something. Kyoto is just the first stage as has been said many times. However I fully expect the US attitude that the world is yours to destroy on behalf of everyone else to continue.

Changleen · Feb 17, 2005

Mtb_Rob_FL said:
JrB, has excellent points, but there is no stopping it. China has way more people. As their country, or more so their people become more developed (econimically), they will pass the US in every economic category.

Hopefully they'll learn from the mistakes of others and avoid some of the worst excesses of western planet rape. I have to admit I'm looking forward to the day when there is more than one financial superpower in the world.

Jr_Bullit · Feb 17, 2005

fluff said:
Each person in the US eats .12 million tonnes of meat per annum?

That's 120,000,000 kilos!

Divided by 365...

328,767 kilos of meat per day.

No wonder you guys have an obesity problem.

Not .12 million tonnes ...goof

.12 tonnes per year per person.

Still an awful lot of food though :dead:

$tinkle · Feb 17, 2005

Changleen said:
Since then GW has systematically gutted your anti-pollution laws.

such as...

Changleen said:
You're still the biggest consumer and most wasteful society on earth by far. You're responsible for 25% of the world's polution. Not bad for 1-2% of the population.

<froth>
tell ya what: we'll back off the pollution by 5 - 10 % if you agree on behalf of the world to stop accepting our various exports: food, technology, cars, durable goods, did i mention FOOD. What you call "waste" other govt's call "lifeblood"
</froth>
by-the-by: world population: just over 6 billion; us pop: 300 million; how you get 1 - 2 % from that is stunning.

since the position of stalker is taken by genpowell, may i be your fact-checker? seems that position is not yet taken

Changleen said:
The point about Kyoto is that the 144 countries who have signed up to at least give a **** about the planet and are trying to do something. Kyoto is just the first stage as has been said many times. However I fully expect the US attitude that the world is yours to destroy on behalf of everyone else to continue.

most of those countries just want the u.s. teet in their mouth. yeah, i'm jaded.

i'll readily agree that kyoto is in its infancy; my beef is when people take it as gospel. Here's a good read from one of the NAS panel members who did the report on climate changed (used for kyoto input)

blue · Feb 18, 2005

$tinkle said:
such as...<froth>
tell ya what: we'll back off the pollution by 5 - 10 % if you agree on behalf of the world to stop accepting our various exports: food, technology, cars, durable goods, did i mention FOOD

We export stuff? Can you please explain the trade deficit in depth?

Toshi · Feb 18, 2005

people who write "tonnes" of anything are illiterate to my eyes :cool:

Silver · Feb 18, 2005

blue said:
We export stuff? Can you please explain the trade deficit in depth?

We import a hell of a lot more than we currently export.

blue · Feb 18, 2005

Silver said:
We import a hell of a lot more than we currently export.

Exactly. Nobody needs expensive american cheap crap, when they can get inexpensive chinese cheap crap...Hence the reason the export argument doesn't work.

fluff · Feb 18, 2005

Toshi said:
people who write "tonnes" of anything are illiterate to my eyes

Un-American also, eh?

$tinkle · Feb 18, 2005

blue said:
Exactly. Nobody needs expensive american cheap crap, when they can get inexpensive chinese cheap crap...Hence the reason the export argument doesn't work.

tell me, does china offer cheaper cars, aerospace (outside of airbus, there is no other competitor in the world), telecommunications, chemicals, food processing, mining, agricultural products, military hardware?

who does the world go to again for these offerings? we're not talking barbie dolls, office supplies, & knock-off tools. Those are secondary items.

MTB_Rob_NC · Feb 18, 2005

$tinkle said:
tell me, does china offer cheaper cars,

Yes, look for a new Chinese manufacturer hitting the US market by 2010. There are talks of entry level cars in the sub $7000 range.

They are already out there, entry to the US market is HIGHLY gaurded by the still VERY powerfull Big 3.

$tinkle · Feb 18, 2005

you mean this?
http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0501/02/A01-47455.htm

this guy's been in bed with YUGO!!, and visionary vehicles is the 8th biggest auto manufacturer....in CHINA! not in the world: in CHINA!

a search on "visionary vehicles" at money.cnn.com returned nothing (i.e. they're not publicly traded on any market)

Toshi · Feb 18, 2005

MMike said:
Something kinda occurred to me. China is a communist regime right? So how come they don't have bread lines and toilet paper lines like the Soviets did?

they did when they tried to go all-communist and did insanely stupid things during the cultural revolution like putting scholars and physicians to work in the fields, and putting the (uneducated) peasants to work in their stead as professors and doctors.

MTB_Rob_NC · Feb 18, 2005

$tinkle said:
you mean this?
http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0501/02/A01-47455.htm

I have seen trade pubs about that guy. He is one of the catalysts for sure. I am not going to e-speculate who will be the first. Obviously the larger manufacturers or someone that will cut a deal (probably distribution/dealer body) with one of the existing US or US selling manufacturers will be the one to stick.

It will be interesting to see. The US auto market is VERY complex, we have a very strange love for our cars. So they could bring the very best $7000 car to market and it not sell. :confused:

valve bouncer · Feb 18, 2005

$tinkle said:
you mean this?
http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0501/02/A01-47455.htm

this guy's been in bed with YUGO!!, and visionary vehicles is the 8th biggest auto manufacturer....in CHINA! not in the world: in CHINA!

a search on "visionary vehicles" at money.cnn.com returned nothing (i.e. they're not publicly traded on any market)

He's just the first. Bloody hell you're old enough to remember when "Jap crap" wasn't said ironically. They're a player. Deal.

$tinkle · Feb 18, 2005

valve bouncer said:
He's just the first. Bloody hell you're old enough to remember when "Jap crap" wasn't said ironically. They're a player. Deal.

yugo is short for yugoslavia - communist influence in every-bloody-thing, up to and including quality control (or lack thereof); china is full of short-cuts, corporate espionage, piracy. shall i re-introduce lada, niva, volga? they're tip-top, no?

japan was re-built 1/2 century ago into a (largely) capalist society by some nation not usually thanked around here. they have thrived & will continue to do so. same w/ so korea. capitalism, not communism, will triumph in the long term.

the hell do i know? i'm just a dumb-ol reagan republican

valve bouncer · Feb 18, 2005

$tinkle said:
yugo is short for yugoslavia - communist influence in every-bloody-thing, up to and including quality control (or lack thereof); china is full of short-cuts, corporate espionage, piracy. shall i re-introduce lada, niva, volga? they're tip-top, no?

japan was re-built 1/2 century ago into a (largely) capalist society by some nation not usually thanked around here. they have thrived & will continue to do so. same w/ so korea. capitalism, not communism, will triumph in the long term.

the hell do i know? i'm just a dumb-ol reagan republican

I know what YUGO meant mate. Not my point at all. This probable Model T is only the start, more and better will inevitably come. Comparing the USSR to China now is apples and oranges. How much investment did the West ever put into the Soviets? (A :nuts: if you mention the lend-lease program

)

dan-o · Feb 18, 2005

$tinkle said:
yugo is short for yugoslavia - communist influence in every-bloody-thing, up to and including quality control (or lack thereof); china is full of short-cuts, corporate espionage, piracy. shall i re-introduce lada, niva, volga? they're tip-top, no?

You're not taking into account the amount of money foreign companies are investing in China. My buddy was working for GM in China ten years ago. The new Chevy Equinox uses a chinese V6. They're not starting from scratch, we're giving them all the intellectual and manufacturing knowledge when we transfer our industries to China. The world is competing for the Chinese consumer and will employ all available advantages to ensure they win over their competition. The Soviet Union received no such Western support.

$tinkle · Feb 18, 2005

dan-o said:
They're not starting from scratch, we're giving them all the intellectual and manufacturing knowledge when we transfer our industries to China.

aren't there laws or incentives acting as barriers to this? I know that LSI-logic sent a good bit of their foundry stuff to GDR instead of china a few years back due in large part to US influence; although i'm not sure in what capacity, nor to what degree.

dan-o said:
The world is competing for the Chinese consumer and will employ all available advantages to ensure they win over their competition.

how true. this certainly complicates the global-trade debate for me

dan-o said:
The Soviet Union received no such Western support.

we were busy selling rockets to the taliban, remember?

valve bouncer · Feb 18, 2005

Hey &tinkle, reply to me ya fu-dge pa-cker (note clever hyphen use). I'm much more cleverer* than that dan-o bloke and I'm gaggin' for an interlectural* conversation.

* "the Montashu" patented word- 2 empty coke bottles e-sent to his trailer as we speak.

ohio · Feb 18, 2005

$tinkle said:
capitalism, not communism, will triumph in the long term.

Which is why it's unfortunate for us that industrial China is effectively capitalist.
China doesn't do much in the way of great original engineering, but they're the best de-engineers on the planet, and quality control is not an issue when they need it to be a non-issue.

The great thing for them, is we need them so badly for the cheap labor that they know we'll look the other way when they steal our technology.

If you doubt their abilities to produce a high-tech, high-quality good, take a look at the computer in front of you.

I've already seen some made-in-china knockoffs of japanese motorcycles... they were not bad. It won't be long before the cars are up to standard as well.

narlus · Feb 18, 2005

Changleen said:
Kyoto was looking good until the yanks demanded emmisions trading as part of it's structure, thus giving rich industrialised countries an easy out, then refused to even be a party to it.

i was under the impression that these emissions credits were a bad thing too (I, like you, don't know squat about economics), but i did read an article where it was explained well, and there was a definite net benefit to having them.

here's a decent site, but feel free to dig around some more. (i couldn't find the original article i read):

http://www.solutions-site.org/artman/publish/article_19.shtml

fluff · Feb 18, 2005

Toshi said:
they did when they tried to go all-communist and did insanely stupid things during the cultural revolution like putting scholars and physicians to work in the fields, and putting the (uneducated) peasants to work in their stead as professors and doctors.

The cultural revolution had nothing to do with communism. It was a dumb idea all of its own.

ohio · Feb 18, 2005

narlus said:
i was under the impression that these emissions credits were a bad thing too (I, like you, don't know squat about economics), but i did read an article where it was explained well, and there was a definite net benefit to having them.

here's a decent site, but feel free to dig around some more. (i couldn't find the original article i read):

http://www.solutions-site.org/artman/publish/article_19.shtml

Emissions credits are a fantastic thing and no, they are not "an easy way out," but yes, it will take a long time to explain them.

Toshi · Feb 18, 2005

fluff said:
The cultural revolution had nothing to do with communism. It was a dumb idea all of its own.

the relaxation of the cultural revolution was accompanied by a relaxation of restrictions on capitalist policies. draw your own conclusions.

valve bouncer · Feb 18, 2005

fluff said:
The cultural revolution had nothing to do with communism. It was a dumb idea all of its own.

I thought one of the dumbest ideas was putting all those many millions of peasants into an early grave. That democide was truly horrendous. It's interesting that the deaths of those countless millions hasn't entered the consciousness of the West in quite the same way as the holocaust has. That is not to say that the holocaust isn't worthy of our same consideration but that the cultural revolution's horror should bear similar scrutiny because it was a comparable example of humankinds worst, just as the holocaust was.

valve bouncer · Feb 18, 2005

MMike said:
Um...yes. If you believe that Boeing is 100% american made...you are sorely mistaken.

Take the 737 for instance. Some of the vertical fins are built in....CHINA!! We had make a second set of drawings for the chinese made vertical fins. It had a few more details on it that would otherwise be covered by in-house specs.

Some fins are built in the US and some are chinese. But they are interchageable parts.

So China is putting out more that plastic dog poop and toilet seats....

MMike....off topic post.....Boeing have just unleashed that new 777. What a beauty. My favourite airplane just got better.
BTW- whaddya think of the A380....a beast...... Andy1970 you're a plane nut, input if ya want.

fluff · Feb 18, 2005

Toshi said:
the relaxation of the cultural revolution was accompanied by a relaxation of restrictions on capitalist policies. draw your own conclusions.

Do you understand the theory of Communism?

fluff · Feb 18, 2005

valve bouncer said:
I thought one of the dumbest ideas was putting all those many millions of peasants into an early grave. That democide was truly horrendous. It's interesting that the deaths of those countless millions hasn't entered the consciousness of the West in quite the same way as the holocaust has. That is not to say that the holocaust isn't worthy of our same consideration but that the cultural revolution's horror should bear similar scrutiny because it was a comparable example of humankinds worst, just as the holocaust was.

I think you are confusing the cultural revolution and the 'great leap forwards'.

And I agree, it was madness, but the bulk of the failure lay in the execution rather than the concept.

$tinkle · Feb 18, 2005

narlus said:
here's a decent site, but feel free to dig around some more. (i couldn't find the original article i read):

http://www.solutions-site.org/artman/publish/article_19.shtml

here at home, we're canceling it out:
Emissions tests end after 2007

PoserNewbie · Feb 18, 2005

MMike said:
Wake up america! You've slipped!

http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2005/02/16/china-consumption-050216.html

This is actually affecting us at work. It's nearly impossible to get bearings made in Japan anymore. We need to place orders 6-9 months in advance because all of the japanese bearings are being used by China!

The article is very informative but it will take a few more years before they can overtake the US. China has the very same problem with other developing countries. The population is very big but only a smaller percentage of that total population has the buying power.

narlus · Feb 18, 2005

$tinkle said:
here at home, we're canceling it out:
Emissions tests end after 2007

emissions testing and credits are two different creatures. i can't believe they are ending emissions testing for cars in your area. how do you feel about that? are they testing industry still?

China is now the world's largest consumer

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