[Dogboy]

It's funny too because the reality is the people that have "blown" kings up probably don't have properly reamed and faced headtubes, and assume that the reason is in the product.

Actually, the reality is that Chris King has been too fvcking cheap to license the Cane Creek patent all these years and thus has offered an inferior design. It's a simple fact. Otherwise, why would they be switching the design now that the patent is expiring?

 

[Transcend]

It's funny too because the reality is the people that have "blown" kings up probably don't have properly reamed and faced headtubes, and assume that the reason is in the product.

What? No. The reason people blow king headsets up is that they come loose pretty damn quickly on long travel bikes due to their lack of a split ring from trying to get around a patent.

The bearings last forever and their CS is great, but the design sucked. I personally have a king on 2 bikes, simply because I was given it and it works great when it's tight, but you have to constantly check it. And yes, it was installed by one of the best mechanics in the race business, on a perfectly prepped frame.

The normal split ring design will make a world of difference, and they may even be worth paying for now if their CS and bearings stay the same.

 

[IH8Rice]

Um, the question with their "traditional" headsets is long term durability. Pointing out that WC teams, who can replace headsets after every weekend, use them is retarded.

congrats on the e-speculation and being a armchair mechanic.
if their design was so horrible, i doubt they would be using it, regardless if you think they replace them every weekend and regardless if they would be getting paid from CK.

 

[gemini2k]

congrats on the e-speculation and being a armchair mechanic

Ya, that "armchair mechanic" that worked in a shop for half a decade, and has been working on mine and others bikes ever since, AND probably installed more headsets than most (you?) people have.

if their design was so horrible, i doubt they would be using it,

Uh, if their design was so great, why would they change it AS SOON AS POSSIBLE when the patent expired?

regardless if you think they replace them every weekend and regardless if they would be getting paid from CK.

No, they would use whatever they were paid to use, regardless if it was a good design or not.

 

[IH8Rice]

Ya, that "armchair mechanic" that worked in a shop for half a decade, and has been working on mine and others bikes ever since, AND probably installed more headsets than most (you?) people have.

No, they would use whatever they were paid to use, regardless if it was a good design or not.

youre right, those 8 years i spent managing a bike store and wrenching in one i only installed 1 headset


if their design was as bad as you say it is, why would they even take the chance with it possibly coming lose during a race?...regardless if you think they replace them every weekend and regardless if you think they would run something that could comprise a win for the rider even if it means getting paid.
if it was that bad, dont you think they would go with another company (that im sure would pay them) instead of King?

continue your ranting though. its funny. as is your neg rep

 

[Zark]

I've been wanting to say something for a while now about this. As CK used to be a local Santa Barbara company I've heard a little more background on this, but no names and specifics. The word is a former CK employee took the split ring idea from king, left king, had it patented, sold the rights and made some dough. King was massively pissed and wasn't wanting to pay for rights to use his own idea. Now intellectual property has long been a touchy subject for the bike industry. I have no evidence to support this story, but it would seem to be no coincidence that this news is released on the eve on the patent's expiration.

As for the former design, its flawed for long travel applications. A rubber o-ring in no way provides enough friction to maintain bearing preload.

 

[Jm_]

I have no evidence to support this story.

Then in true Tosh.0 fashion, you should definitely post this on Wikipedia. What more proof do you need?

Seriously though, if CK didn't offer the correct design just because they were pissed (hypothetical due to this possibly being NOT TRUE AT ALL), then screw them. Business is business and you take some hits and you have your moments. That's like saying "we're not going to put air-bags in our car cause we'd have to pay for the patent"...I don't care who stole the "idea", "quality without compramise" is their friggin logo right? It's not "quality, except for when our ideas get taken, then we come up with a half-ass solution and wait until the patent expires"...

 

[Zark]

Then in true Tosh.0 fashion, you should definitely post this on Wikipedia. What more proof do you need?

Lulz
I feel odd enough posting it here where the BS flows freely, no way I'm posting this on wiki.

 

[Huck Banzai]

I like CK's for shorter travel, and fought the good fight to defend them for Long travel, but when my DH bike started clicking and creaking despite obsessive maintenance, I decided to use my 8 yo Pig DH Pro and I can ignore the headset.

The quality of CK stuff is fantastic, but it doesnt overcome the relative design flaw in this application, and they clearly know (knew) this, or they would be no need for the switch.

 

[Huck Banzai]

Now - although maybe I could find it if I read deeper, can the new top cap be used with the old bearings/cups?

 

[Adamski]

I still wonder why anyone buys CK when there is the Cane Creek 110.

 

[LOOnatic]

I still wonder why anyone buys CK when there is the Cane Creek 110.

So true!

 

[marshalolson]

I still wonder why anyone buys CK when there is the Cane Creek 110.

or CC 100, which is the exact samething, with a little less polish, alot less graphics, and $50 cheaper.

 

[Cant Climb]

Now - although maybe I could find it if I read deeper, can the new top cap be used with the old bearings/cups?

Kit is $29 and only comes in black for right now....

Gonna get 2 for my 10 year old headsets.

 

[Lelandjt]

The word is a former CK employee took the split ring idea from king, left king, had it patented, sold the rights and made some dough.

Possible but I doubt it. Working in the industry at the time it sure seemed like Dia-Comp invented the A-headset on their own (split ring was a key part of the design) and then proceeded to license it.

CK thought so highly of their threaded headsets and expect every fork and frame to be perfectly in spec that they thought they could get around the patent.

As a side note I've only used split ring headsets, haven't prepped a frame's headtube in over a decade, and never had a headset come loose or creak.

 

[frorider]

Possible but I doubt it. Working in the industry at the time it sure seemed like Dia-Comp invented the A-headset on their own (split ring was a key part of the design) and then proceeded to license it.

CK thought so highly of their threaded headsets and expect every fork and frame to be perfectly in spec that they thought they could get around the patent.

As a side note I've only used split ring headsets, haven't prepped a frame's headtube in over a decade, and never had a headset come loose or creak.

i agree with you on all the above.

i switched to CC and the fsa orbit extreme pro on my single crown bike builds years ago. still have some old CK headsets working -- with a short travel fork, and a well-prepped frame, they work great.

relieved to see CK acknowledge the reality of the situation.

 

['size]

No, they would use whatever they were paid to use, regardless if it was a good design or not.

just like tires.

 

[rockofullr]

just like tires.

Yup cause choosing the right headset is just as important as having the right rubber. That's why racers are always swapping headsets when conditions change and running custom headset mods for different tracks.

 

['size]

Yup cause choosing the right headset is just as important as having the right rubber. That's why racers are always swapping headsets when conditions change and running custom headset mods for different tracks.

obvious comment is obvious.

the point and fact is factory teams do not always run the equipment they are paid to run. to say they would run a 'paid to use' part if it was deemed sub par seems a bit naive.

 

[rockofullr]

obvious comment is obvious.

the point and fact is factory teams do not always run the equipment they are paid to run. to say they would run a 'paid to use' part if it was deemed sub par seems a bit naive.

Here's an example. Friend of mine is a sponsored skier. He goes through 5 or more pair of his sponsor's skis a season. He has told me plenty of times that they are not durable and if he weren't sponsored he would be buying different planks but they make it down the hill and pay his bills so that's what he rides.

As always just because some pro rides it does not make it great.

 

[jonKranked]

Here's an example. Friend of mine is a sponsored skier. He goes through 5 or more pair of his sponsor's skis a season. He has told me plenty of times that they are not durable and if he weren't sponsored he would be buying different planks but they make it down the hill and pay his bills so that's what he rides.

As always just because some pro rides it does not make it great.

does your friend make a living from skiing?

that being said, of all the pro mtb'ers I know personally, not a single one of them makes their living from racing.

 

[rockofullr]

does your friend make a living from skiing?

that being said, of all the pro mtb'ers I know personally, not a single one of them makes their living from racing.

Yes, he supplements his income from comps and photo shoots by building rails. Does this count? Also, why does it matter, said brand carries plenty of skiers who's sole income is from skiing.

The point I am making is that a DH racer could care less that X or Y component is more durable or requires less maintenance. If it works for 5 mins it works for them. For your average rider that stuff makes a big difference.

 

[OGRipper]

Ive been using King headsets since they first came out with threaded, one inch headsets that at the time were worlds better than anything else. People tend to forget that all the sealed-bearing headsets on the market today followed King - some folks here should be careful about accusing King of copying.

But yeah, the o-ring design doesn't hold up on long-travel bikes - if they are actually ridden.

That said, it's a headset, it's not too complicated. And sure, there are other headsets that work just fine for less money. But I'm willing to pay a premium for products that come from a company with values I support.

Plus, I can't ignore the free coffee and pancakes at Downieville every year.

 

[jonKranked]

Yes, he supplements his income from comps and photo shoots by building rails. Does this count?

The point I am making is that a DH racer could care less that X or Y component is more durable or requires less maintenance. If it works for 5 mins it works for them. For your average rider that stuff makes a big difference.

the "average" dh racer definitely cares, because the "average" dh racer doesn't get any sort of income from racing. The only racers that would hypothetically care if a part works for 5 minutes are at the top of the UCI points standings generally speaking, and account for less than one tenth of one percent of all DH racers.

 

[jonKranked]

and in regards to pro skiing vs pro mtb, if DH had the same kind of money that skiing did, well, lets just say that money talks. Hell, if I were paid enough money you'd see me riding an ellesworth with a white bros fork and kenda tires.

 

[rockofullr]

Hell, if I were paid enough money you'd see me riding an ellesworth with a white bros fork and kenda tires.

That's my point. Saying that the Syndicate guys ride CK is a worthless statement.