[Silver]

http://ncronline.org/NCR_Online/archives2/2006a/032406/032406h.htm

Catholics especially.

Thank God that we have a bunch of them (what is it now, four or five?) on the Supreme Court. If torture was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for our country.

 

[kinghami3]

Jesus' second mission was to love the oppressed; I don't see how we are propagating that by torturing them. I hate my religion

 

[Changleen]

Holy sh1t. I really can't believe those numbers! That is awful! You have officially lost the WoT.

 

[Ti22]

American "Catholics" also approve of abortion, contraception, divorce and other non-Catholic teachings.. what's your point? I for one am a rare case of a Catholic that listens to the teachings of the church, rather that his own version of truth.

Flame away, I couldn't care less..

 

[Silver]

American "Catholics" also approve of abortion, contraception, divorce and other non-Catholic teachings.. what's your point? I for one am a rare case of a Catholic that listens to the teachings of the church, rather that his own version of truth.

Flame away, I couldn't care less..

The point is that while the amount of secular people who support using torture is disturbing, the numbers for those who claim to follow Jesus are atrocious.

 

[Ti22]

The point is that while the amount of secular people who support using torture is disturbing, the numbers for those who claim to follow Jesus are atrocious.

I agree with you, but then so is their view on abortion, and other issues related to the "culture of death".. torture is the least of my concerns, even if it is a valid one.

 

[ummbikes]

I offfer that most people who claim to be Christians are really not. I'm not being "judgmental" but most American's I would guess when asked would say they Christians in the same way they check the box indicating they are white on a form. It is the stock answer. So really it's enough to just be American in order to support torture.

 

[Ti22]

I offfer that most people who claim to be Christians are really not. I'm not being "judgmental" but most American's I would guess when asked would say they Christians in the same way they check the box indicating they are white on a form. It is the stock answer. So really it's enough to just be American in order to support torture.

I'll buy that.. a good observation my friend. People are "Christian" when it suits a political agenda.. whether left or right.. they use it to justify a political agenda.. Jesus wasn't a Democrat, or Republican.. he was a "Christian" and I try to follow his teachings in my views.. even if I'm not perfect, I try.

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

I offfer that most people who claim to be Christians are really not. I'm not being "judgmental" but most American's I would guess when asked would say they Christians in the same way they check the box indicating they are white on a form. It is the stock answer. So really it's enough to just be American in order to support torture.

i think that is the book definition of a fallacy.
the "x cannot be y, and those x who are y are not really x"... but i dont remember the name.

 

[jaydee]

Catholics who follow the Catholic church's party line are more likely to see issues as black or white, because the church's philosophy is very definite on any issue perceived as a moral issue and doesn't allow for any personal opinion and interpretation. Suspected terrorists must be bad, because they are not good, so torturing them is acceptable to much of this group. You may have noticed that most righteous Catholics are firmly right-wing. I was raised in a Catholic environment and it took all I had to resist the indoctrination and recover from it, so I know the mindset. It's not surprising that the majority of them support torture. This has nothing to do with Jesus, much the same as the evolution of Catholic doctrine has had much more to do with political and financial power and not much to do with the real Jesus either.

 

[Changleen]

Jaydee is right - Seeing the world in black and white is a) stupid and b) dangerous.

 

[valve bouncer]

I firmly support the right to torture Catholics. In fact it should be televised.
It's sad that for every Andy or Ummbikes there's 10 Christian morons. Reverse that and the world might be a bit better place.

 

[ummbikes]

i think that is the book definition of a fallacy.
the "x cannot be y, and those x who are y are not really x"... but i dont remember the name.

I'm sure what you are describing is correct, but I'm positive that I'm not just speculating wildly.

Statistics, and sociology courses have taught me that people lie, or skew their responses to survey questions based on what they think the survey is trying to prove. In the case of issues of American politics being God fearing and tough on terror is what we are supposed to think is correct. My statement is more about how people want to be perceived, and not if they really have a faith system centered around Jesus Christ and hold a view point contrary to the teachings of Jesus. Which is what the survey indicates is fact of the matter.

 

[Ti22]

Catholics who follow the Catholic church's party line are more likely to see issues as black or white, because the church's philosophy is very definite on any issue perceived as a moral issue and doesn't allow for any personal opinion and interpretation. Suspected terrorists must be bad, because they are not good, so torturing them is acceptable to much of this group. You may have noticed that most righteous Catholics are firmly right-wing. I was raised in a Catholic environment and it took all I had to resist the indoctrination and recover from it, so I know the mindset. It's not surprising that the majority of them support torture. This has nothing to do with Jesus, much the same as the evolution of Catholic doctrine has had much more to do with political and financial power and not much to do with the real Jesus either.

Firmly right wing?

So I guess pro-union, anti-big business, pro-environment, pro-Palestinian, pro-welfare, pro-minority, pro-mexican immigration views are now right wing?

First you need to understand authentic Catholic doctrine and teachings as spelled out in the Catechism, then you can attack the Catholic church and rail against it's 2000 year history of promoting and preserving western civilization and Christian values.

 

[fluff]

American "Catholics" also approve of abortion, contraception, divorce and other non-Catholic teachings.. what's your point? I for one am a rare case of a Catholic that listens to the teachings of the church, rather that his own version of truth.

Flame away, I couldn't care less..

To get away from the point, are you saying that you disapprove of all contraception? And if so why?

 

[Old Man G Funk]

i think that is the book definition of a fallacy.
the "x cannot be y, and those x who are y are not really x"... but i dont remember the name.

You are thinking of the "No True Scotsman" fallacy.

http://atheism.about.com/od/logicalfallacies/a/notruescotsman.htm

 

[Old Man G Funk]

First you need to understand authentic Catholic doctrine and teachings as spelled out in the Catechism, then you can attack the Catholic church and rail against it's 2000 year history of promoting and preserving western civilization and Christian values.

What is "authentic" Catholic doctrine? Would that include all the changes that have been made in that 2000 year's time?

Also, I find the boast of "promoting and preserving western civilization and Christian values" to be a little ambitious. Would you care to be a little more specific? Maybe you could tell us how the Catholic church promoted geocentrism or slavery for instance?

 

[Old Man G Funk]

So, when will Catholic churches start denying communion to politicians that don't denounce torture? They have no problem with denying it to those who support abortion rights, so why not this?

 

[Ti22]

To get away from the point, are you saying that you disapprove of all contraception? And if so why?

rather than get into a long, and never ending debate on the subject there are VOLUMES of information by the church on WHY it's wrong.. morally, culturally, and in terms of health.. pick up a Catechism or google "Catholic Church Contraception" and filter past the anti-catholic propaganda by Planned Parenthood and other groups.. and you'll get the long winded answer that I don't have the energy to type out.

There is nothing kept secret about the Churches teachings on anything..

 

[Ti22]

So, when will Catholic churches start denying communion to politicians that don't denounce torture? They have no problem with denying it to those who support abortion rights, so why not this?

They're not on the same moral plain.. furthermore, I am sure that if a politician became ACTIVELY pro-torture and went out of his way (As with abortion) to avoid judge nominations or write legislation for using it... (when the case has actually been opposite).. you MAY start to see just that.

 

[Old Man G Funk]

They're not on the same moral plain.. furthermore, I am sure that if a politician became ACTIVELY pro-torture and went out of his way (As with abortion) to avoid judge nominations or write legislation for using it... (when the case has actually been opposite).. you MAY start to see just that.

Not on the same moral plain? Why not?

You might want to look at the stances of some of our representatives. They basically are actively "pro torture".

 

[Ti22]

What is "authentic" Catholic doctrine? Would that include all the changes that have been made in that 2000 year's time?

Also, I find the boast of "promoting and preserving western civilization and Christian values" to be a little ambitious. Would you care to be a little more specific? Maybe you could tell us how the Catholic church promoted geocentrism or slavery for instance?

Site a promotion of slavery?

also, The Churched promoted science far more than it got in sciences way... dont' get lost in anti-Catholic propaganda..

Here are but a few scientists promoted by the Church: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Roman_Catholic_scientists

Finally, how many universities, hospitals and charitable institutions are in existence today because of the Churches adherence to education?

You can't hang up on literal snapshots in history of when an occasional Pope or bishop was in disagreement with a scientist.. ultimately the Church reversed corrected itself in these cases anyway, and the fact that Church isn't at odds with with science today in the same way as the Evangelicals are is proof of this long standing open mindedness and understanding.

YOU REALLY NEED TO READ PAST THE BS THAT YOUR PROFESSORS TAUGHT YOU.. and read the real history of the Church.

AS for western civilization .. You'd likely be a Muslim today were it not for the Church.

 

[Old Man G Funk]

rather than get into a long, and never ending debate on the subject there are VOLUMES of information by the church on WHY it's wrong.. morally, culturally, and in terms of health.. pick up a Catechism or google "Catholic Church Contraception" and filter past the anti-catholic propaganda by Planned Parenthood and other groups.. and you'll get the long winded answer that I don't have the energy to type out.

There is nothing kept secret about the Churches teachings on anything..

I'm currently reading the FIRST google entry that came up, but in the meantime, perhaps you might want to try to understand why the church had a prohibition on contraception.

I'm just throwing a wild idea out there, but maybe it had nothing to do with the "wrongness" of it as much as it did with keeping order. Back when the rules were written, there wasn't any such thing as contraception (not anything reliable anyway) so sex would usually lead to pregnancy. If the couple were unwed or unable to support a child, this was bad for the community, because there would be unwanted children around. I suspect that the rule came about for that very reason. It's much like the prohibition on eating pork.

 

[Ti22]

Not on the same moral plain? Why not?

You might want to look at the stances of some of our representatives. They basically are actively "pro torture".

Back in WWII we tortured Germans under secret programs kept from congress, and more importantly Hitler.. as we feared retaliation. This has been a part of war since time began.. it's sad, but not more sad than war itself. Politicians cannot be held responsible for what they cannot effect.. From what I have seen, no MAJOR politician is pro-torture in the US today... if there is one, please share his name as I'll be happy to send him a letter..

 

[Ti22]

Failed to mention a major Catholic priest and scientists:

http://www.accessexcellence.org/RC/AB/BC/Gregor_Mendel.html

 

[Ti22]

because there would be unwanted children around. I suspect that the rule came about for that very reason. It's much like the prohibition on eating pork.

no Child is unwanted... the lines for adoption (take it from me) are sometimes years long..

furthermore, there are very reliable natural planning methods..


No, friend, contraception has done nothing more then made sex out of wedlock even more acceptable, and given the false idea that a condom will keep you safe from disease and babies.

Reflect back on a time when there was much less sex out of wedlock, and no contraception.. surely you must accept that we had far LESS teenage pregnancy (there can never be a utopia), and far LESS abortion, and no AIDS..

If the world would follow the teachings of the Church on sex, we would have a cleaner and safer world for children. Sadly, it's against "human nature" we're told so we invent ways to cheat, i.e. contraception, but nature has a way to adapt to anything.. and this has been shown to be the case with the number of "unwanted" children today.

 

[Old Man G Funk]

Site a promotion of slavery?

also, The Churched promoted science far more than it got in sciences way... dont' get lost in anti-Catholic propaganda..

Here are but a few scientists promoted by the Church: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Roman_Catholic_scientists

Finally, how many universities, hospitals and charitable institutions are in existence today because of the Churches adherence to education?

You can't hang up on literal snapshots in history of when an occasional Pope or bishop was in disagreement with a scientist.. ultimately the Church reversed corrected itself in these cases anyway, and the fact that Church isn't at odds with with science today in the same way as the Evangelicals are is proof of this long standing open mindedness and understanding.

YOU REALLY NEED TO READ PAST THE BS THAT YOUR PROFESSORS TAUGHT YOU.. and read the real history of the Church.

AS for western civilization .. You'd likely be a Muslim today were it not for the Church.

Although it is true that some bishops and others did oppose slavery through the years, and that some popes did also oppose it, many did not, and the official church position (when those popes were not in power) was not in opposition to slavery.

I can't believe you actually cited a wiki page in support of your argument that the church supported science that lists Copernicus and Galileo. Did you even look at it before you put it in your comment? Oh, BTW, when did the church correct itself in regards to geocentrism?

 

[Old Man G Funk]

Back in WWII we tortured Germans under secret programs kept from congress, and more importantly Hitler.. as we feared retaliation. This has been a part of war since time began.. it's sad, but not more sad than war itself. Politicians cannot be held responsible for what they cannot effect.. From what I have seen, no MAJOR politician is pro-torture in the US today... if there is one, please share his name as I'll be happy to send him a letter..

Because it was done then, does not make it right now.

Here's a list of politicians that support torture. None of them appear to be Catholic, so maybe my comment on that was off the mark.

http://www.stopthetorture.org/shame/

 

[Ti22]

Although it is true that some bishops and others did oppose slavery through the years, and that some popes did also oppose it, many did not, and the official church position (when those popes were not in power) was not in opposition to slavery.

I have no idea what you are talking about sorry... I know of NO church doctrine that has EVER accepted slavery. What did you want, the Pope to come over to the US and march with Rev. King or something?

I can't believe you actually cited a wiki page in support of your argument that the church supported science that lists Copernicus and Galileo. Did you even look at it before you put it in your comment? Oh, BTW, when did the church correct itself in regards to geocentrism?

last I checked those entries were all valid names of Catholic scientists..

If you don't want that, then read this, like I said I don't want to get into an endless debate.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13598b.htm

 

[Ti22]

Because it was done then, does not make it right now.

Here's a list of politicians that support torture. None of them appear to be Catholic, so maybe my comment on that was off the mark.

http://www.stopthetorture.org/shame/

glad we can agree on this point.. the Evangelical crowd is the problem with this country, not the Catholics.. Just look at the whole Israel debacle..

 

[MudGrrl]

a bunch of Catholic propaganda regarding sex

are you SERIOUS??????

 

[Old Man G Funk]

no Child is unwanted... the lines for adoption (take it from me) are sometimes years long..

If the world would follow the teachings of the Church on sex, we would have a cleaner and safer world for children. Sadly, it's against "human nature" we're told so we invent ways to cheat, i.e. contraception, but nature has a way to adapt to anything.. and this has been shown to be the case with the number of "unwanted" children today.

Um, are there no unwanted children, or many unwanted children? Make up your mind. Also, tell me why so many children go unadopted. Yes, there is a waiting period before people can adopt, but the number of people looking to adopt is lower than the number of children available IIRC.

Also, "human nature"? What do you mean by that?

furthermore, there are very reliable natural planning methods..

No, friend, contraception has done nothing more then made sex out of wedlock even more acceptable, and given the false idea that a condom will keep you safe from disease and babies.

Reflect back on a time when there was much less sex out of wedlock, and no contraception.. surely you must accept that we had far LESS teenage pregnancy (there can never be a utopia), and far LESS abortion, and no AIDS..

I can reflect on a time (now) where abstinance only education actually leads to more teenage pregnancy. Is that what you meant?

 

[Old Man G Funk]

I have no idea what you are talking about sorry... I know of NO church doctrine that has EVER accepted slavery. What did you want, the Pope to come over to the US and march with Rev. King or something?

Jesus accepted slavery.

last I checked those entries were all valid names of Catholic scientists..

If you don't want that, then read this, like I said I don't want to get into an endless debate.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13598b.htm

Coming up with a list of Catholic scientists doesn't prove your point, especially when 2 of the scientists on that list were denounced as heretics and were the exact example I brought up. Try again.

 

[Old Man G Funk]

glad we can agree on this point.. the Evangelical crowd is the problem with this country, not the Catholics.. Just look at the whole Israel debacle..

Yet, Catholics accept torture more readily than the evangelical crowd, which was the whole point of the first post, or didn't you get that.

The reason I said that I might be off the mark with that particular comment was that the church might not put out a comment before there is an actual politician supporting torture who is Catholic. But, maybe they should do it anyway as a proactive measure.

 

[Ti22]

when did the church correct itself in regards to geocentrism?

Never officially I admit, but in effect it's accepted modern cosmological science, and certainly the apology that JP II made to Galilee at the Pontifical Academy of Science seems to imply it.. There is also now a major observatory at the Vatican that is completely in concurrence with modern cosmology. However, as with other chapters in the 2000 year history of the Church, there were moments of embarrassing disagreement where the Church has since corrected itself.. it's a work in progress in many ways, but after 2000 years, with the exception of the latest sex scandal (which no institution made of men/women is immune - see my link below) the Church has been pretty much on the right side of history for a long time..

Other sex abuse going on in the wold (but to site on example):
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=49383

So are we to accuse all teachers of this?

 

[Ti22]

Um, are there no unwanted children, or many unwanted children? Make up your mind. Also, tell me why so many children go unadopted. Yes, there is a waiting period before people can adopt, but the number of people looking to adopt is lower than the number of children available IIRC.

Also, "human nature"? What do you mean by that?

furthermore, there are very reliable natural planning methods..

I can reflect on a time (now) where abstinance only education actually leads to more teenage pregnancy. Is that what you meant?

Those usually terminate in abortion, I guess I had to spell it out..

 

[Old Man G Funk]

last I checked those entries were all valid names of Catholic scientists..

If you don't want that, then read this, like I said I don't want to get into an endless debate.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13598b.htm

I'll grant that the church did promote learning to some extent during the Middle Ages, and scientific discovery...so long as that discovery was not in contradistinction with church dogma. When the findings of science did run afoul of church teachings, well, we know what happened there. We see a pretty dynamic shift away from church funded science toward a more secular funding source during the years after the Middle Ages, when science starts to look for more natural explanations (they stopped looking for how many angels could dance on the head of a pin around this time as well.) Not coincidentally, we see science start to make ever greater leaps during that time period and even up through today.

 

[Ti22]

Jesus accepted slavery.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on these points.. as it would take too much to explain why you are wrong, and I'm not as good an evangelizer as I should be! But it would appear you've been listing to a few anti-Christian professors.. I've heard it all before at the U.

Coming up with a list of Catholic scientists doesn't prove your point, especially when 2 of the scientists on that list were denounced as heretics and were the exact example I brought up. Try again.

Yes it does actually.. and the disagreements when those scientists have all been resolved, and since we live in the present, I would say the fact that those scientists were FUNDED by the church is evidence that IT HAS contributed to science, even if by divine providence and not a desire by its human leaders in the "Dark ages"..

 

[Old Man G Funk]

Never officially I admit, but in effect it's accepted modern cosmological science, and certainly the apology that JP II made to Galilee at the Pontifical Academy of Science seems to imply it.. There is also now a major observatory at the Vatican that is completely in concurrence with modern cosmology. However, as with other chapters in the 2000 year history of the Church, there were moments of embarrassing disagreement where the Church has since corrected itself.. it's a work in progress in many ways, but after 2000 years, with the exception of the latest sex scandal (which no institution made of men/women is immune - see my link below) the Church has been pretty much on the right side of history for a long time..

Other sex abuse going on in the wold (but to site on example):
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=49383

So are we to accuse all teachers of this?

Who's talking about sex abuse scandals? I certainly didn't bring it up.

Yes, the church has corrected itself, only hundreds of years after the fact, and in the meantime it was prohibiting science and research. And, I'll give them credit for saying the evolution is not necessarily in contradiction to the faith. Of course, that doesn't go far enough. They should embrace evolution, not just say, "Well, you can believe it if you want, but you don't have to." They have also (with the new pope) been treading dangerously close to embracing ID, which would mean that they are NOT in accordance with the latest in Cosmology.

 

[Old Man G Funk]

Those usually terminate in abortion, I guess I had to spell it out..

You'll still have to spell out how it's not a contradiction as well.