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Civil War monuments...

JohnE

filthy rascist
May 13, 2005
13,430
1,949
Front Range, dude...
Was going to put this in the Dumpster fires Presidency thread, but I think it deserves its own thread. First of all, I think we all agree that publicy supported monuments to traitorous losers are patently ridiculous, yet take a minute and compare/contrast the numbers here...there is about a gajillion (give or take a few...) CSA monuments compared to a dozen or so Northern monuments. What the everloving fuck is going on here? As I get older, I realize more and more every day how fucked up this country and many of her residents are...

For your edification. Please, discuss.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Union_Civil_War_monuments_and_memorials

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_monuments_and_memorials_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America
 

SkaredShtles

Michael Bolton
Sep 21, 2003
65,380
12,535
In a van.... down by the river
Confederate monuments on public property - tear that shit down.

Other places - IDGAF. Leave those alone. Freedom of expression and all that.

Haven't we already been down this road with public displays of religious shit? Come on, folks...
 

Adventurous

Starshine Bro
Mar 19, 2014
10,262
8,772
Crawlorado
IMO there are few individual men/women in the history of human existence that deserve a statue or monument in their honor. Participants in the Civil War era, with the exception of Lincoln, are not among them.

To me it comes down to what the monument is supposed to represent. If it is a monument commemorating those who gave their lives fighting a bloody, divisive war (regardless of which side they fought on) that almost tore apart the fabric of American society, leave it. It is important to recognize and remember the tremendous impact it had without glorifying the death and destruction that resulted.

Or we just take the Trump supporter approach, say, "You lost get over it!" and tear them all down.
 

Kevin

Turbo Monkey
Dude youre comparing religion too downright, out in the open racism and fascism?

Theres a reason why Germany has laws against anything even remotely related to the propagation of Nazism.

No matter what youve gotten used to in the US ever since trumpf came into power its wrong on so many levels i cant even begin to describe.
Any statues or whatever regarding the civil war that are not commemorating victims in general should have been taken down a long ass time ago.
 

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
54,241
20,025
Sleazattle
From a legal a democratically elected city or local government should be able to display whatever historical statues they like. Charlottesville should be able to remove their statues and Richmond can keep their terrible "monument row". Everyone on the outside has the right to judge those locals accordingly.

From a moral perspective I find them disgusting. It would be one thing if it was a memorial for a confederate foot soldier that died in the war. For the most part they were no different than the soldiers from the north. Conscripted kids who had little choice but to fight or be jailed/shot and ridiculed. They may have fought voluntarily, but they were told that if slavery was abolished the freed slaves would steal their land and rape their women. The irony of it all is they fought and died for an economic system that actually maintained them in poverty. At the end of the war they were all pardoned and granted full citizenship. You would think that as a country if we wanted to learn anything from the past we would have statues of both Union and Confederate soldiers standing side by side with a single number showing the horrifying numbers that died on both sides.

Displaying statues of the traitorous generals and men that started that war is disgusting. Take them down or at least put up huge plaques describing the truth. The truth that these men owned other men and women. These men valued their personal wealth more than the lives of those they enslaved. These men committed treason to protect their personal wealth. These men valued their personal wealth over the hundreds of thousands of men they sent to die in battle. The truth that these statues were displayed in the times of the Jim Crow era and the Civil Rights Movement not for the purpose of history and heritage but as symbols of the power the white establishment had over black southerners. Symbols of power and oppression in times when Black Americans were attempting to make progress towards equality.
 

Kevin

Turbo Monkey
From a legal a democratically elected city or local government should be able to display whatever historical statues they like. Charlottesville should be able to remove their statues and Richmond can keep their terrible "monument row". Everyone on the outside has the right to judge those locals accordingly.

From a moral perspective I find them disgusting. It would be one thing if it was a memorial for a confederate foot soldier that died in the war. For the most part they were no different than the soldiers from the north. Conscripted kids who had little choice but to fight or be jailed/shot and ridiculed. They may have fought voluntarily, but they were told that if slavery was abolished the freed slaves would steal their land and rape their women. The irony of it all is they fought and died for an economic system that actually maintained them in poverty. At the end of the war they were all pardoned and granted full citizenship. You would think that as a country if we wanted to learn anything from the past we would have statues of both Union and Confederate soldiers standing side by side with a single number showing the horrifying numbers that died on both sides.

Displaying statues of the traitorous generals and men that started that war is disgusting. Take them down or at least put up huge plaques describing the truth. The truth that these men owned other men and women. These men valued their personal wealth more than the lives of those they enslaved. These men committed treason to protect their personal wealth. These men valued their personal wealth over the hundreds of thousands of men they sent to die in battle. The truth that these statues were displayed in the times of the Jim Crow era and the Civil Rights Movement not for the purpose of history and heritage but as symbols of the power the white establishment had over black southerners. Symbols of power and oppression in times when Black Americans were attempting to make progress towards equality.
Basically what I said but i disagree on one point. (Not sure if this is your standpoint though or just from a legal pov...)

You should not be able to democratically choose to endorse racism and fascism.
We, as a species (and especially in a modern western society) should be beyond those ideologies.
Its basically like saying its ok to burn people at the stake for heresy should a state democratically agree on it.

Democracy has served us well for quite some time, but now that we know better we should stop letting a bunch of fucktards ruin it for everyone else.
 

AngryMetalsmith

Business is good, thanks for asking
Jun 4, 2006
21,083
9,796
I have no idea where I am
I grew up in both NC and PA and noticed that the Civil War was not discussed among students in the North as it was in the South. In NC it was a very big part of growing up. It was talked about a lot, and passionately. These kids are taught by their parents, teachers, and peers about the Civil War and it's rebel heroes from birth. Some of them never get another viewpoint. Where as in the North, it was simply not on anybody's radar and seldom mentioned by anyone other than a History teacher.

In the South the Civil War is preserved through generations of promulgating the idea of "heritage". The fact that the statues are monuments to traitors, racists and some truly horrible people never enters their thoughts because they have had their version of history hammered into them their entire life. This isn't something that can be changed in a few years, it will take many, many more generations to evolve.
 

stevew

resident influencer
Sep 21, 2001
40,496
9,528
i remember going on a field trip to sulley plantation in virginia...5th or 6th grade.....and thinking why is this place still around....
 

Jim Mac

MAKE ENDURO GREAT AGAIN
May 21, 2004
6,352
282
the middle east of NY
From a legal a democratically elected city or local government should be able to display whatever historical statues they like. Charlottesville should be able to remove their statues and Richmond can keep their terrible "monument row". Everyone on the outside has the right to judge those locals accordingly.

From a moral perspective I find them disgusting. It would be one thing if it was a memorial for a confederate foot soldier that died in the war. For the most part they were no different than the soldiers from the north. Conscripted kids who had little choice but to fight or be jailed/shot and ridiculed. They may have fought voluntarily, but they were told that if slavery was abolished the freed slaves would steal their land and rape their women. The irony of it all is they fought and died for an economic system that actually maintained them in poverty. At the end of the war they were all pardoned and granted full citizenship. You would think that as a country if we wanted to learn anything from the past we would have statues of both Union and Confederate soldiers standing side by side with a single number showing the horrifying numbers that died on both sides.

Displaying statues of the traitorous generals and men that started that war is disgusting. Take them down or at least put up huge plaques describing the truth. The truth that these men owned other men and women. These men valued their personal wealth more than the lives of those they enslaved. These men committed treason to protect their personal wealth. These men valued their personal wealth over the hundreds of thousands of men they sent to die in battle. The truth that these statues were displayed in the times of the Jim Crow era and the Civil Rights Movement not for the purpose of history and heritage but as symbols of the power the white establishment had over black southerners. Symbols of power and oppression in times when Black Americans were attempting to make progress towards equality.
Most monuments, as I understand, went up around the Jim Crow era of the 1920's. That was when the KKK grew like crazy. So, why statues/KKK rise n the 20's? African-American solders were coming back from WWI and were beginning to demand equal rights, having just kicked ass for 'Murica and all.

Local and National example is Henry Johnson, aka "Black Death":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Johnson_(World_War_I_soldier)
 

rockofullr

confused
Jun 11, 2009
7,342
924
East Bay, Cali
there is about a gajillion (give or take a few...) CSA monuments compared to a dozen or so Northern monuments.
Most monuments, as I understand, went up around the Jim Crow era of the 1920's. That was when the KKK grew like crazy. So, why statues/KKK rise n the 20's? African-American solders were coming back from WWI and were beginning to demand equal rights, having just kicked ass for 'Murica and all.
It's true.

http://www.history.com/news/how-the-u-s-got-so-many-confederate-monuments

Most of these monuments did not go up immediately after the war’s end in 1865. During that time, commemorative markers of the Civil War tended to be memorials that mourned soldiers who had died
“Eventually they started to build [Confederate] monuments,” he says. “The vast majority of them were built between the 1890s and 1950s, which matches up exactly with the era of Jim Crow segregation.” According to the Southern Poverty Law Center’s research, the biggest spike was between 1900 and the 1920s.
 

stoney

Part of the unwashed, middle-American horde
Jul 26, 2006
21,521
7,074
Colorado
Having toured a lot of Civil War battle fields as a youth (I was a total history geek), one that struck me as a proper usage of statues was battlefield layout. They had placed the important generals and leaders of key battalions, etc into place on the fields to give perspective. That was good usage of Confederate statues, as it was educational.

Otherwise? I see no value to them. I spent a very large portion of my youth in the Deep South and there really is no educational aspect to them. Most people have no idea who most of the statues are of. Unfortunately you have places like Stone Mountain in Atlanta that can't be pulled down (and imho shouldn't be because it details both sides - could be pulled back a bit though, show is pretty pro-confederacy).
 

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
54,241
20,025
Sleazattle
I dunno, what about keeping the Confedrate statutes but just modify them so they're all holding a white surrender flag? Ya know, the only CSA flag that matters.
My father gave me shit because there is a Lenin statue in Seattle. I had to remind him it is privately owned, on private land, and treated with due respect.



 

SkaredShtles

Michael Bolton
Sep 21, 2003
65,380
12,535
In a van.... down by the river
My father gave me shit because there is a Lenin statue in Seattle. I had to remind him it is privately owned, on private land, and treated with due respect.
Why are people so fucking bad at critical thinking?

Gov't placed: needs to meet certain standards, or it needs to go
Privately owned: NO PROBLEM

So what did he have to say?
 

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
54,241
20,025
Sleazattle
Why are people so fucking bad at critical thinking?

Gov't placed: needs to meet certain standards, or it needs to go
Privately owned: NO PROBLEM

So what did he have to say?
He assumes a filtered reality where all conservatives and good and always right anyone who is not is a communist and bad and wrong. To him there is no nuance in the world, no grey just black and white. Pops ain't dumb, but he is a raging asshole. I am pretty much the only person he will listen to, but I rarely have the patience to explain shit to him. I need to be a cold logician but somehow not insult him. He will just yell at anyone else who disagrees with him. I often get frustrated with him and just start mocking him, he hates that and will usually change the subject.
 
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SkaredShtles

Michael Bolton
Sep 21, 2003
65,380
12,535
In a van.... down by the river
He assumes a filtered reality where all conservatives and good and always right anyone who is not is a communist and bad and wrong. To him there is no nuance in the world, no grey just black and white. Pops ain't dumb, but he is a raging asshole. I am pretty much the only person he will listen to, but I rarely have the patience to explain shit to him. I need to be a cold logician but somehow not insult him. He will just yell at anyone else who disagrees with him. I often get frustrated with him and just start mocking him, he hates that and will usually change the subject.
I suspect this is where my old man would be had he not died in the mid-90's.
 

Adventurous

Starshine Bro
Mar 19, 2014
10,262
8,772
Crawlorado
I dunno, what about keeping the Confedrate statutes but just modify them so they're all holding a white surrender flag? Ya know, the only CSA flag that matters.
Saw someone post last night that they should allow Confederate statues and monuments as long as the caption beneath said "Civil War runners-up". I lol'd :rofl:
 

Pesqueeb

bicycle in airplane hangar
Feb 2, 2007
40,146
16,543
Riding the baggage carousel.
He assumes a filtered reality where all conservatives and good and always right anyone who is not is a communist and bad and wrong. To him there is no nuance in the world, no grey just black and white. Pops ain't dumb, but he is a raging asshole. I am pretty much the only person he will listen to, but I rarely have the patience to explain shit to him. I need to be a cold logician but somehow not insult him. He will just yell at anyone else who disagrees with him. I often get frustrated with him and just start mocking him, he hates that and will usually change the subject.