[William42]

Cathro just released a video on cleat placement over here: https://www.pinkbike.com/news/video-the-science-nehind-cleat-positioning-with-ben-cathro.html

Which leads me to wonder: with virtually every professional rider interviewed prioritizing ankle stability and protection over theoretical small efficiency gains, why aren't we seeing shoe companies setting that "slammed back" as the mid point and moving the slots further back on the shoe?

It seems analogous to a suspension company setting their compression range to be ideal for a 200-270lb rider. Maybe 200lbs is pretty average rider weight and that's a compression range that works well for people, but the result is still "everybody runs no compression."

Why not set their range for 170-240?

I've hyper extended my ankles on hard drops/landings enough time that I'm not going to run clipless again purely on account of wanting arch over axle and no shoes out there to accommodate it.

Am I the weirdo or do shoe companies suck and just not get it?

 

[Gary]

not going to run clipless again

Is the correct answer.
So who cares?

 

[bullcrew]

I find cleat placement is strategically correct when it's up the ass of spandex clad guy wearing them...
Or his buddies ass!!

All joking aside, I think that...oh never mind I meant that!!

No, I have no input other than a smart ass answer. I can see good and bad of them I'm a flats kind of guy...but on certain areas I feel like buddies have an advantage over my flats

.

 

[slyfink]

Cathro just released a video on cleat placement over here: https://www.pinkbike.com/news/video-the-science-nehind-cleat-positioning-with-ben-cathro.html

Which leads me to wonder: with virtually every professional rider interviewed prioritizing ankle stability and protection over theoretical small efficiency gains, why aren't we seeing shoe companies setting that "slammed back" as the mid point and moving the slots further back on the shoe?

It seems analogous to a suspension company setting their compression range to be ideal for a 200-270lb rider. Maybe 200lbs is pretty average rider weight and that's a compression range that works well for people, but the result is still "everybody runs no compression."

Why not set their range for 170-240?

I've hyper extended my ankles on hard drops/landings enough time that I'm not going to run clipless again purely on account of wanting arch over axle and no shoes out there to accommodate it.

Am I the weirdo or do shoe companies suck and just not get it?

did you watch the whole video? caus' he actually addresses that. the tl:dr is because it would place the cleat to close to the edge of the shoe, creating a weak point that would lead to the sole breaking.

I suppose that area could get reinforced, but then you'd wind up with a weird flex pattern for off-bike walking.

personally, I started riding clipless before 5.10s were widely available. I distinctly remember flying into rock gardens and root sections and blowing my feet off the pedals. Clipless was a good way to counter that. When I eventually got some 5.10s (I'd been riding clipless for years by that point), I didn't like that my feet would still get bounced off, but then come to rest in a less-than-ideal position. My problem after that is that I couldn't reposition them caus' the sole-pedal interface was too sticky. I found that I just liked clipless better. I've also found that these days, most clipless shoes have a much more rearward mounting position than back in the days of disco-slippers. which is a win-win. maybe not quite ankle-over-the-axle, but close enough to be a win-win for me.

I also remember reading up on cleat position in roadie publications a while back. I think that the consensus was that closer to the ball of the foot gave more peak power, while closer to the arch of the foot allowed you to sustain a high power output for longer periods. not quite as high as the peak of the ball of foot position, but overall you got more power for longer.

All that to say, I'm pretty happy with where my Fizik Gravita Tensor place my foot on my Time MX6 pedals with the cleat slammed to the back for general trail riding....

 

[jonKranked]

 

[sethimus]

did you watch the whole video? caus' he actually addresses that. the tl:dr is because it would place the cleat to close to the edge of the shoe, creating a weak point that would lead to the sole breaking.

just make the sole out of carbon and stiff af

 

[Gary]

before 5.10s were widely available. I distinctly remember flying into rock gardens and root sections and blowing my feet off the pedals.

TBF it's entirely down to technique.. I hate sticky soled shoes and grippy pedals and it's honestly never been an issue. But I still see 5:10'd up Jerrys getting their feet blown off. Now that it's almost mandatory to ride flats in shoes featuring soles with spiderman levels of grip I think people forget foot placement (and holding on to it) isn't just a case of weighting your flat pedal's platform and keeping your ankles/knees loose but also engaging your whole body (especially your core and upper body). Watch someone who was fast on flats pre sticky soles era. Cully maybe. And you'll see their entire body is dynamic over any rough surface. TBF Big long AF larger wheeled harder to manipulate bikes have also kinda killed off that style of riding. But look at a few of the 50-01 crew on vans and little bikes doing shit you probably can't/wouldn't and never getting bucked or losing a foot unintentionally.

 

[slyfink]

TBF it's entirely down to technique.. I hate sticky soled shoes and grippy pedals and it's honestly never been an issue. But I still see 5:10'd up Jerrys getting their feet blown off. Now that it's almost mandatory to ride flats in shoes featuring soles with spiderman levels of grip I think people forget foot placement (and holding on to it) isn't just a case of weighting your flat pedal's platform and keeping your ankles/knees loose but also engaging your whole body (especially your core and upper body). Watch someone who was fast on flats pre sticky soles era. Cully maybe. And you'll see their entire body is dynamic over any rough surface. TBF Big long AF larger wheeled harder to manipulate bikes have also kinda killed off that style of riding. But look at a few of the 50-01 crew on vans and little bikes doing shit you probably can't/wouldn't and never getting bucked or losing a foot unintentionally.

undoubtedly. but I'm also quite happy clipped in at the moment, so I don't need to re-learn how to ride. (though any time spent at the pump track and trying to jump immediately reminds me that I do not, in fact, know how to ride a bike)

 

[johnbryanpeters]

I find cleat placement is strategically correct when it's up the ass of spandex clad guy wearing them...
Or his buddies ass!!

All joking aside, I think that...oh never mind I meant that!!

No, I have no input other than a smart ass answer. I can see good and bad of them I'm a flats kind of guy...but on certain areas I feel like buddies have an advantage over my flats

.

Specifically on what sort of terrain?

 

[SylentK]

Cathro just released a video on cleat placement over here: https://www.pinkbike.com/news/video-the-science-nehind-cleat-positioning-with-ben-cathro.html

Which leads me to wonder: with virtually every professional rider interviewed prioritizing ankle stability and protection over theoretical small efficiency gains, why aren't we seeing shoe companies setting that "slammed back" as the mid point and moving the slots further back on the shoe?

It seems analogous to a suspension company setting their compression range to be ideal for a 200-270lb rider. Maybe 200lbs is pretty average rider weight and that's a compression range that works well for people, but the result is still "everybody runs no compression."

Why not set their range for 170-240?

I've hyper extended my ankles on hard drops/landings enough time that I'm not going to run clipless again purely on account of wanting arch over axle and no shoes out there to accommodate it.

Am I the weirdo or do shoe companies suck and just not get it?

Arch over axel would feel weird to me, but I'm a total clipless nerd. (I will do that on my clipless only if I'm on an elevated skinny bridge or something sooper sketch) It works, but only for that techy section.

I'm a size 12US. I just had to check, I put my cleats in the middle of a shimano shoe (always go shimano with a shimano pedal). Not sure why anymore, it's just the way I've always done it. For me, it's just easier and a very consistent way to set up. Like pull the thingys you screw into all the way back, but use the front holes. And for my right foot, angle it a little cuz of knee/ankle/hip clip out lack of mobility jackassery.

I do think if you try to run them all the way back on a larger shoe, you'll hit something like a crank or frame, making emergency clip outs a bit traumatic.

I know plenty that have gone from clips to flats and never looked back. Even on a road bike.

Isn't there a Earthed section where Sam Hill and Bryn were commenting on eachother's riding style? And one was like "he rides like he's on clips, but he's on flats" And the other guy said the same thing, but the other way around? Classic.

 

[Gary]

undoubtedly. but I'm also quite happy clipped in at the moment, so I don't need to re-learn how to ride. (though any time spent at the pump track and trying to jump immediately reminds me that I do not, in fact, know how to ride a bike)

Yeah. I wasn't actually criticising you personally. Just making a general comment that stemmed from something you mentioned. Folk get far too wrapped up in gear, tech, equipment and overthinking. So much so I often think many miss the point. Just ride yer bike... Its nearly always enjoyable.

 

[William42]

I guess my main reason for not running clips is that I have shitty ankles. I struggle to keep my ankles stiff enough to whip the bike with clips, and hard landings pretty much always fuck my ankles (with clips. with flats I can ride with my arch over the axle, and it's largely a non issue. The caveat and one of the reason im interested in clips is that on the rare occasion I do slip a foot,I get pretty insane pedal bite in the back of my calves and ankles). I don't have some fear of clipless though, my main reason for running flats is ankle stability, and if I could get that from clips I'd be interested in trying them again.

It seems like it'd be pretty easy for shoe mfgs to make the cleat slots occupy a more middle of the shoe solution so that slamming it forward places it just in front of the ball of your foot and slamming them back places it closer to the arch, rather than back being right at the ball and forward being up by your toes.

The "shoes might break" seems like a pretty weakass excuse and I'm confident it's a hurdle that could be overcome.

 

[Jozz]

Some brands are advertising a more rearward clip box, Ride Concept comes to mind.
I've been on clips all my riding years (30+) and going with a rear most position coupled with new forward geometry as really help cornering better and less heal drop on larger hits.

 

[Lelandjt]

Why aren't we seeing shoe companies setting that "slammed back" as the mid point and moving the slots further back on the shoe?

For over 15 years I've run the cleats farthest forward on my road shoes, a little back from that on my Trail/XC shoes, and a little back from that on my Enduro/DH shoes. I've never had to put a cleat at either end of the adjustment range, so I'm happy with the range currently offered. However, it's hard to imagine anyone should need to go farther forward on any of those shoes than I do, so they could move the range back a LITTLE to better accommodate some people without bumming out the efficiency chasers.

 

[bullcrew]

Specifically on what sort of terrain?

Well rocky courses where ass end kicks a bit or need to pull the bike and give it some manual pop...
Me I like taking body parts off so clipped is another bueno for me...some stuff we ride here I've found my buddy upside down in bush still clipped in...

If you mean what terrain they can stick the cleat up their ass, well I'm new school so could be on a lawn, a trail ride ,driveway ...I'm good


All joking aside I go over flat placement for power, ball or arch for stability...just had this chat with Chris about placement...partly cause I got nerve issues in the base of my foot, alot of it from high impact sports and heavy lifting...so wether clipped or flats I'd be curious to look at the thoughts on that..

 

[OGRipper]

I was one of those guys who switched between clipless and flats for years, but I'm pretty much always clipped in these days.

No idea if the science is correct as far as power output, but roadies can move their cleats forward with less concern about achilles and other ankle damage on hard hits.

I have no real evidence but my sense is that the cleat mounting channels have moved back a bit on most spd-compatible shoes over the years, particularly those that are gravity-oriented. I used to automatically slam them all the way back but now that's a bit far on some shoes.

I do think if you try to run them all the way back on a larger shoe, you'll hit something like a crank or frame, making emergency clip outs a bit traumatic.

This happens to me occasionally with the new Shimano GE9 (which, BTW, I like quite a bit). I think it's a combination of a relatively bulky front of the shoe and more material forward of the pivot point (i.e., the cleat). I run the cleats a bit inward to help avoid it but yeah, moving the cleats up would certainly help.

 

[Lelandjt]

I also remember reading up on cleat position in roadie publications a while back. I think that the consensus was that closer to the ball of the foot gave more peak power, while closer to the arch of the foot allowed you to sustain a high power output for longer periods. not quite as high as the peak of the ball of foot position, but overall you got more power for longer.

This got overblown by a vocal minority of old, slow, long distance riders. Racers and young fast guys haven't moved their cleats back, even the long distances guys.

 

[Westy]

I ride with them on the forward side of in the middle. I still spend 70% of my time pedaling a MTB and I prefer having the extra vertical motion on descents, possibly because I spend significant time on a hardtail. I have robust Cankles and don't have problems straining them. On bigger hits my shoulders are more likely to dislocate. Long ago after ripping the nail off of my big toe I painfully realized that I actually use them toes to change the weight distribution on the pedals during corners and I loose that extra level of control with the axle farther back on my feet.

 

[canadmos]

I put my cleats on, generally where I think I want them. On the first ride I might make a note to change them, but more often I can't be bothered and just adapt to wherever they are at.

Five tens, with them in the middle of the holes pretty much.

 

[Jm_]

Cathro just released a video on cleat placement over here: https://www.pinkbike.com/news/video-the-science-nehind-cleat-positioning-with-ben-cathro.html

Which leads me to wonder: with virtually every professional rider interviewed prioritizing ankle stability and protection over theoretical small efficiency gains, why aren't we seeing shoe companies setting that "slammed back" as the mid point and moving the slots further back on the shoe?

It seems analogous to a suspension company setting their compression range to be ideal for a 200-270lb rider. Maybe 200lbs is pretty average rider weight and that's a compression range that works well for people, but the result is still "everybody runs no compression."

Why not set their range for 170-240?

I've hyper extended my ankles on hard drops/landings enough time that I'm not going to run clipless again purely on account of wanting arch over axle and no shoes out there to accommodate it.

Am I the weirdo or do shoe companies suck and just not get it?

Well, because most of NA starts around 250lb.

 

[Jm_]

This got overblown by a vocal minority of old, slow, long distance riders. Racers and young fast guys haven't moved their cleats back, even the long distances guys.

Yeah, just did a big race last week and did very well, top 10 in cat. Never once on the DHs or tech bits did I think I needed to move my cleats back like flats pedal position. Its just not a thing.

 

[sethimus]

I hate sticky soled shoes and grippy pedals

of course you do, mr edgy

 

[William42]

For over 15 years I've run the cleats farthest forward on my road shoes, a little back from that on my Trail/XC shoes, and a little back from that on my Enduro/DH shoes. I've never had to put a cleat at either end of the adjustment range, so I'm happy with the range currently offered. However, it's hard to imagine anyone should need to go farther forward on any of those shoes than I do, so they could move the range back a LITTLE to better accommodate some people without bumming out the efficiency chasers.

That's where I'm at. Following the lead of roadies seems silly, especially when the range that DHers want to ride is clearly further back than the average roadie. I'm not advocating for something extreme either, just seems like there should be plenty of room to move the cleat further back and reduce leverage on the ankle and also still leave a happy place for those of you nerds who think the price of pedaling harder is worth it to go faster.

Haven't you people learned anything from Trump? We humans are like batteries and you're wasting lifetime energy by pedaling.

 

[sethimus]

stand in shoe, feel up the farest outside point of your feet on both sides, mark them. put in cleats losely and place them on one of these guides:

imagine a line inbetween both marked points and place the shoe so that the cleat sits where the cross on the guide and your line sits exactly in the middle. sit on a batstool, let your feet dangle freely, look down. angle the feet on the guide a similar as possible as the angle your feet dangled. tighten the screws of your cleats.

congratulation, you placed your feet correctly for pedalling and no knee pain.

 

[William42]

Wow thanks that's helpful. Unrelated to the conversation we're having, and not actually helpful at all, but hey can't be a winner every time you type something.

 

[slyfink]

Yeah. I wasn't actually criticising you personally. Just making a general comment that stemmed from something you mentioned. Folk get far too wrapped up in gear, tech, equipment and overthinking. So much so I often think many miss the point. Just ride yer bike... Its nearly always enjoyable.

I didn't take it personally. I just know exactly what you meant and totally agree.

I even catch myself doing it for my kids' bikes. I keep wanting to upgrade stuff for them. I have to hold back and listen to what they have to say about the bikes before buying... I've been wanting to make all sorts of tweaks, but have settled on just swapping tires on my older son's bike. he keeps complaining about slipping out, so will replace with beefier, grippier tires.

 

[mykel]

Well I guess my achilles will be fucked. I've been riding ball over spindle for over 50 years.
My clips sit in a box cause I'm just a flats kinda guy. I could deal with toe-clips easier than I can clipless, never got on with them and I've tried a couple times. I've tried moving back when on a set of convex flats (one-up) but that was a hard fail. Foot position other than ball over spindle feels all kinds of wrong. I stay attached to the bike better with ball over spindle as I feel like ankle flex helps me float, where when closer to the arch I feel like I'm being bounced off the pedal. Loving the Tenet flats though

 

[William42]

Eh I don't think it's some dogmatic thing. Plenty of people out there riding ball over axle do just fine. The point is that nobody is riding toes over axle, but there are plenty of people riding arch over axle that could love to move the cleat back. The fact that most professionals seem to immediately slam the cleat back suggests that the range needs adjustment.

 

[Gary]

mr edgy

Don't worry I'll never be as edgy as you stood in the queue for your favourite club.

 

[sethimus]

Don't worry I'll never be as edgy as you stood in the queue for your favourite club.
View attachment 211166

Gästeliste digga

 

[Leafy]

I'd been running my ride concepts near the back of the range, which goes basically into the arch area but not direction mid arch, and apparently in the crash that shattered my tibia (after that foot came unclipped and tried to become a fence post) the cleats got pushed to the very back of the slot and I didnt even notice for the first few rides this year. I'm leaving it there, I like it.