Let’s mentally hop back to before hominids in North America. Slowly changing, largely balanced ecosystem. Sure there are outbreaks of disease, occasional extinctions, seasonal fires but nature in what we simplistically call balance.You've heard of chronic wasting disease (CWD)? It's probably the single biggest threat to large elk heards in Montana. I've seen it with my own eyes, it's heartbreaking. It's decimating them. It's also spread all over the northern rockies now in other grazing animals (let's call them prey).
Here's a little primer if you're not familiar, pay very close attention to the very first bullet point.
But read the whole thing, it's a good overview.
Wolves and Disease - 8.006
Print this information sheet by the Center for Human-Carnivore Coexistence (5/20) Key Points…. Chronic wasting disease (CWD) is a contagious and fatal neurological disease found in deer, elk, and moose in Colorado. Selective predation by wolves on sick and diseased animals may help limit CWD in...extension.colostate.edu
That first "key point" has been a gigantic call to action for reintroducing the things everywhere in the western US over the last few years. Catch the part about it not being actually studied yet? It's a hypothesis. Sounds right, but it's still a hypothesis. One that was brought up over a decade ago.
You'd think over the last several years, that would be a pretty easy thing to test. I can tell you for a fact there are herds of every ungulate out there that are very closely tracked. Seems kinda weird that you won't find anything scientific in support of that. I'll save some space here but if you want I can start posting links to the MASSIVE fundraising efforts run by some of the huge non-profits here on that point alone.
Here's the thing: In the 90's two phenomena didn't exist in the western plains around yellowstone on the scale they do now. 1. Massive spread of CWD, and 2. the presence of long ranging wolf populations. I kinda work in ecology. Not a biologist but I work with them jointly on projects, and have talked at length with a few that study this. The reason you don't see anyone backing up that key point is because every time it's been researched, what they're finding is that there's far more evidence that wolves are responsible fro the spread of CWD. Remember I brought up sport killing? You ever see a pack of wolves run through a herd of deer? Sometimes they'll take one down and eat, and just as often they'll run through the herd just attacking shit, often times not killing anything. As a carrier of a parasite, one that's now killing ungulates all over the northern Rockies, you'd think that behavior could possibly, maybe, just could be a vector no? It turns out that's exactly what's happening. Other predators don't travel the distances that wolves do.
I know this because I know some of the people who were hired to test this original hypothesis, based on everything you posted above. They've had well over a decade now to prove it, and they haven't. In fact what there's more evidence for is the exact opposite: that wolves are serving as a vector for CWD, not helping to eliminate it. The world now is not the same as the world wolves inhabited 200 years ago. But there is a very large mechanism already in motion that would have egg on its face if it had to admit that one the biggest selling points of wolf reintroduction is actually one of the biggest arguments against. But literally millions and millions of dollars have been raised on this idea, that is now actually proven to be very wrong.
They dance around it in that link I posted:
Recently, E. canadensis was confirmed as regularly cycling in wolves and wild ungulates in western North America, with infections present in 30-60% of wolves tested.9,10 E. canadensis has been documented in Colorado.11 In 2017, a hydatid cyst was identified in a Colorado moose. This case occurred in the apparent absence of resident wolves, suggesting other canids may have been involved. In 2020, E. canadensis eggs were identified in feces from gray wolves that migrated into northwestern Colorado.11
It took 40 years for these same groups to admit that maybe completely banning logging and prescribed fire in the name of "environment" has actually created a tinderbox that burns faster, more intense, and more destructively than any spot logging operation. They do not admit their mistakes until it blows up in their faces. They have too much invested. And they control land management agencies. I have literally watched research data get suppressed in my own field when it threatens an industry that relies on a very well crafted image. I know how this works.
So instead of posting a bunch of condescending blather that every 6 year old knows regarding the theory of apex predators, why don't you maybe be open to learning something from someone who lives (and works) a lot closer to the issue, and has no vested interest in an outcome. Propaganda doesn't just exist here in politics and health care, and not from only one side of a two party structure. As it pertains to climate change, we are in a different climate now than the one people fundraise off of to recreate.
I do share your fatalism though.
When humans first roll up we extinct 90% of the megafauna species despite just sticks or whatevs.
Then when Europeans arrive we really get to work. 6 year olds, blah blah.
Now we realise we done fucked up and are trying to fix it.
The disease you refer to, along with probably many other issues we’ll see as we try to go back is simply a symptom of the lack of overall ‘balance’ (the working of sympathetic evolved systems) as the system rebuilds (probably exacerbated by climate fuckery too). I mean of course there will be problems, and we should identify them and learn and fix them. I agree all the non-sexy animals, biomes, etc are ignored but that’s really because this shit is just starting, there is no money for it especially in the US because your culture is ‘poor’ and people are buttfucking shortsighted and ignorant.
You don’t just give up when the first issue pops up. ‘It’s complicated’ of course it is, we were highly effective fuckerupperers and there is a lot to fix. I figure you were just a bit drunk when you replied and fancied and argument, good, I like that too, but really not giving a fuck when people willfully poison an attempt to restore ecosystems is a bit lame. C’mon your depth of rage is better than that!
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