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Climate scientists feeling the "heat" as they fear they've over-sold Global Warming

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,003
149
The Cleft of Venus
:monkey:


Climate scientists feeling the heat
As public debate deals in absolutes, some experts fear predictions 'have created a monster'By ERIC BERGER
Copyright 2007 Houston Chronicle
Jan. 22, 2007, 9:18AM


Scientists long have issued the warnings: The modern world's appetite for cars, air conditioning and cheap, fossil-fuel energy spews billions of tons of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere, unnaturally warming the world.

Yet, it took the dramatic images of a hurricane overtaking New Orleans and searing heat last summer to finally trigger widespread public concern on the issue of global warming.

Climate scientists might be expected to bask in the spotlight after their decades of toil. The general public now cares about greenhouse gases, and with a new Democratic-led Congress, federal action on climate change may be at hand.

Problem is, global warming may not have caused Hurricane Katrina, and last summer's heat waves were equaled and, in many cases, surpassed by heat in the 1930s.

In their efforts to capture the public's attention, then, have climate scientists oversold global warming? It's probably not a majority view, but a few climate scientists are beginning to question whether some dire predictions push the science too far.

"Some of us are wondering if we have created a monster," says Kevin Vranes, a climate scientist at the University of Colorado.

Vranes, who is not considered a global warming skeptic by his peers, came to this conclusion after attending an American Geophysical Union meeting last month. Vranes says he detected "tension" among scientists, notably because projections of the future climate carry uncertainties — a point that hasn't been fully communicated to the public.

The science of climate change often is expressed publicly in unambiguous terms.

For example, last summer, Ralph Cicerone, president of the National Academy of Sciences, told the U.S. House Committee on Energy and Commerce: "I think we understand the mechanisms of CO2 and climate better than we do of what causes lung cancer. ... In fact, it is fair to say that global warming may be the most carefully and fully studied scientific topic in human history."

Vranes says, "When I hear things like that, I go crazy."

Nearly all climate scientists believe the Earth is warming and that human activity, by increasing the level of greenhouse gases such as carbon dioxide, has contributed significantly to the warming.

But within the broad consensus are myriad questions about the details. How much of the recent warming has been caused by humans? Is the upswing in Atlantic hurricane activity due to global warming or natural variability? Are Antarctica's ice sheets at risk for melting in the near future?

To the public and policymakers, these details matter. It's one thing to worry about summer temperatures becoming a few degrees warmer.

It's quite another if ice melting from Greenland and Antarctica raises the sea level by 3 feet in the next century, enough to cover much of Galveston Island at high tide.

Models aren't infallible
Scientists have substantial evidence to support the view that humans are warming the planet — as carbon dioxide levels rise, glaciers melt and global temperatures rise. Yet, for predicting the future climate, scientists must rely upon sophisticated — but not perfect — computer models.

"The public generally underappreciates that climate models are not meant for reducing our uncertainty about future climate, which they really cannot, but rather they are for increasing our confidence that we understand the climate system in general," says Michael Bauer, a climate modeler at NASA's Goddard Institute for Space Studies, in New York.

Gerald North, professor of atmospheric sciences at Texas A&M University, dismisses the notion of widespread tension among climate scientists on the course of the public debate. But he acknowledges that considerable uncertainty exists with key events such as the melting of Antarctica, which contains enough ice to raise sea levels by 200 feet.

"We honestly don't know that much about the big ice sheets," North says. "We don't have great equations that cover glacial movements. But let's say there's just a 10 percent chance of significant melting in the next century. That would be catastrophic, and it's worth protecting ourselves from that risk."

Much of the public debate, however, has dealt in absolutes. The poster for Al Gore's global warming movie, An Inconvenient Truth, depicts a hurricane blowing out of a smokestack. Katrina's devastation is a major theme in the film.

Judith Curry, an atmospheric scientist at the Georgia Institute of Technology, has published several research papers arguing that a link between a warmer climate and hurricane activity exists, but she admits uncertainty remains.

Like North, Curry says she doubts there is undue tension among climate scientists but says Vranes could be sensing a scientific community reaction to some of the more alarmist claims in the public debate.

For years, Curry says, the public debate on climate change has been dominated by skeptics, such as Richard Lindzen of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, and strong advocates such as NASA's James Hansen, who calls global warming a ticking "time bomb" and talks about the potential inundation of all global coastlines within a few centuries.

That may be changing, Curry says. As the public has become more aware of global warming, more scientists have been brought into the debate. These scientists are closer to Hansen's side, she says, but reflect a more moderate view.

"I think the rank-and-file are becoming more outspoken, and you're hearing a broader spectrum of ideas," Curry says.

Young and old tension
Other climate scientists, however, say there may be some tension as described by Vranes. One of them, Jeffrey Shaman, an assistant professor of atmospheric sciences at Oregon State University, says that unease exists primarily between younger researchers and older, more established scientists.

Shaman says some junior scientists may feel uncomfortable when they see older scientists making claims about the future climate, but he's not sure how widespread that sentiment may be. This kind of tension always has existed in academia, he adds, a system in which senior scientists hold some sway over the grants and research interests of graduate students and junior faculty members.

The question, he says, is whether it's any worse in climate science.

And if it is worse? Would junior scientists feel compelled to mute their findings, out of concern for their careers, if the research contradicts the climate change consensus?

"I can understand how a scientist without tenure can feel the community pressures," says environmental scientist Roger Pielke Jr., a colleague of Vranes' at the University of Colorado.

Pielke says he has felt pressure from his peers: A prominent scientist angrily accused him of being a skeptic, and a scientific journal editor asked him to "dampen" the message of a peer-reviewed paper to derail skeptics and business interests.

"The case for action on climate science, both for energy policy and adaptation, is overwhelming," Pielke says. "But if we oversell the science, our credibility is at stake."
 

rockwool

Turbo Monkey
Apr 19, 2004
2,658
0
Filastin
N8, if dubya and his gang held up the Palestinian flag and told you it was the US's, you would believe him, cus you obviously haven't noticed the climate changes for your self even though they're pounding you.

The drillings in the Antarctic aren't lying.
 

Old Man G Funk

Choir Boy
Nov 21, 2005
2,864
0
In a handbasket
Notice how this article doesn't deny that GW is occurring (least not the part I read...I got so bored with the same old sh*t that I skipped down to here.)

No, GW can not be pointed at as the cause of Hurrican Katrina or any other specific hurricane. Yes, GW might be helping to increase the intensity of the hurricans that do hit landfall, but we don't know for sure.

Yes, there have been hot years on record. But, we are seeing a growing trend of heat, in correlation with our increasing output of greenhouse gasses. Only a fool wouldn't grasp that.
 

Kihaji

Norman Einstein
Jan 18, 2004
398
0
N8, if dubya and his gang held up the Palestinian flag and told you it was the US's, you would believe him, cus you obviously haven't noticed the climate changes for your self even though they're pounding you.

The drillings in the Antarctic aren't lying.
And this article is not saying they are. It's saying that perhaps the scientists have overstated what exactly they do know, what they can predict, and what our role is.

You know, that whole conflict of interest stuff that they have to deal with. Politicians need to get re-elected, politicians control the majority of scientific funding, scientists need funding, so they have to give the politicians something juicy to get re-elected.

Comprehension of this stuff should be your goal, not immediate knee-jerk "OMG THEY SAY THE PLANET IS REALLY FINE".
 

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,003
149
The Cleft of Venus
...follow the money....


'Scientist' Group's Funding Comes with Liberal 'Strings Attached'
By Kevin Mooney
CNSNews.com Staff Writer
January 23, 2007


(CNSNews.com) - At a time when the Union of Concerned Scientists (UCS) is censuring free market organizations for accepting donations from ExxonMobil, critics have turned the spotlight back onto the UCS, its left-wing positions, and its own funding practices.

In a recent report, the UCS charged that organizations are using oil industry money to create public uncertainty about what it calls "consensus" about climate change and the role of human activity in affecting temperatures see related story. Organizations named in the report have denied the claims.

The UCS describes itself as an "alliance" of over 200,000 citizens and scientists that initially came together in 1969. It integrates "independent scientific research" with "citizen action" for the purpose of developing and implementing "changes to government policy, corporate practices and consumer choices."

But critics say it is an openly political group.

According to James Dellinger, executive director of Greenwatch - a project of the Capital Research Center - the UCS has a long financial association with elements that have a "partisan view of science."

David Martosko, executive director of ActivistCash.com - a division of the Center for Consumer Freedom - agrees. He told Cybercast News Service the UCS would be "more aptly named the Union of Pro-Regulation, Anti-Business Scientists."

University of Virginia environmental scientist Fred Singer, labeled a "climate contrarian" by the UCS, told Cybercast News Service that the union had "zero credibility as a scientific organization" and was more akin to "pressure groups like Greenpeace."

The UCS receives substantial donations from liberal-leaning foundations, and a number of the donations are earmarked for specific studies, used to promote positions on issues including the environment, disarmament and criticism of missile defense initiatives.

Private foundations cumulatively spend tens of millions of dollars annually on climate change projects, according to information made available through the foundations' websites.

Donations to the UCS in recent years include the following:

- 2000 - a $25,000 Carnegie Corporation of New York grant for "dissemination of a report on National Missile Defense."

- 2002 - a $1 million Pew Memorial Trust
grant "to support efforts to increase the nation's commitment to energy efficiency and renewable energy as a cornerstone of a balanced and environmentally sound energy policy."

- 2003 - a $500,000 Energy Foundation grant over two years "to continue to support a national renewable portfolio standard education and outreach effort."

- 2004 - a $50,000 Energy foundation grant "to design and implement the Regional Greenhouse Gas Initiative carbon market in the Northeast."

- 2004 - a $100,000 Energy foundation grant "to study the impacts of climate change on California using the latest climate modeling."

- 2004 - a $600,000 Energy foundation grant over two years "to promote renewable energy policy at the federal and state levels, with a focus on the Midwest, the Northeast, and California."​


In a study published in 2005, the George C. Marshall Institute(GMI) explored funding for global warming studies and reported that the UCS was among the top five recipients of grants dispersed for climate studies.

In a new book, Bonner Cohen, a senior fellow at the National Center for Public Policy Research, observes that a number of environmental activists have expressed exasperation over the amount of "strings attached to the foundation grants" that reduce their independence.

History of activism
Myron Ebell, director of energy and global warming policy at Competitive Enterprise Institute (CEI) - another group listed in the UCS report - holds the organization in low esteem.

"The name suggests everyone involved is some kind of objective scientist, but they tend to be leftist political activists," he said. "Facts mean very little to them."

Cohen told Cybercast News Service the UCS had a "remarkably benign view of the Soviet Union during the 1970s and 1980s and undertook extraordinary efforts to discourage the U.S. from countering whatever moves the Soviet Union was making to enhance its own nuclear arsenal."

When President Reagan was in the White House, the UCS was an ardent supporter of the "nuclear freeze movement" that was designed as a counterbalance to the U.S. administration's pursuit of a stronger national defense, Cohen said.

This was acknowledged by some of the more prominent activists speaking on behalf of the organization in that era.

"The [nuclear freeze] movement owes its momentum to Reagan," John Marks, a UCS member said in 1981. "What binds these people together is the notion that the world is getting closer to nuclear war. People don't feel safer with more missiles."

In 1983, Reagan announced his proposal for the Strategic Defense Initiative (SDI), a missile defense system that would be positioned in outer space. The following year, the UCS convened a panel that determined the system was "technologically unattainable."

Moreover, Henry Kendall, the late MIT physics professor and a UCS founder member, proclaimed Reagan's plan would "de-stabilize" and upset the strategic balance.

Carl Sagan, the late astronomer and popular science writer from Cornell University, worked in cooperation with other UCS members to organize a 15-city tour for Democratic presidential nominee Walter Mondale in 1984.

The union's opposition to missile defense came full circle during the current Bush administration when the president announced in 2002 he was withdrawing from the 1972 Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty.

The withdrawal gave the U.S. more latitude to pursue a ballistic missile shield to protect America from missile attack by rogue states or terrorist groups.

The UCS is working to derail the project and to that end has received considerable financial support from the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, according to the Capital Research Center.
 

LordOpie

MOTHER HEN
Oct 17, 2002
21,022
3
Denver
Thanks for posting that n8.

That whole newspaper thing still has me confused and the internet, omg, way too difficult to figure out.
 

rockwool

Turbo Monkey
Apr 19, 2004
2,658
0
Filastin
...follow the money....
Yeh, the stinch of it. You should apply the same logic to on your sweetheart presidents actions.

"The name suggests everyone involved is some kind of objective scientist, but they tend to be leftist political activists," he said. "Facts mean very little to them."
Your buddy is saying that as it is something wrong with activists.. Perhaps he prefers politicians that are paid off like hookers to deal with stuf instead of the common caring person?

Thing is, his logic fails while condoning people who volontarily care for the society (activists), while at the same time he shows Greenpeace to be a good example compared to the UCS, as they don't take donations from coorporations/governments/political groups etc?!! What a moron! :crazy:

Cohen told Cybercast News Service the UCS had a "remarkably benign view of the Soviet Union during the 1970s and 1980s and undertook extraordinary efforts to discourage the U.S. from countering whatever moves the Soviet Union was making to enhance its own nuclear arsenal."
Bad, bad, bad UCS you should stand and cheer on the arms race so that N8 and the Bush's can make some bread dammit, they've got families to feed! :nopity:

When President Reagan was in the White House, the UCS was an ardent supporter of the "nuclear freeze movement" that was designed as a counterbalance to the U.S. administration's pursuit of a stronger national defense, Cohen said.
Traitors, communists, eskimo lovers! :hmm:

"The [nuclear freeze] movement owes its momentum to Reagan," John Marks, a UCS member said in 1981. "What binds these people together is the notion that the world is getting closer to nuclear war. People don't feel safer with more missiles."
What a load of horse manure. Just look at his name; John Marks. He's a communist Carl Marx wannabe. If he was a monkey I would spend all of my salary lobbying the mods to ban his ass.

In 1983, Reagan announced his proposal for the Strategic Defense Initiative (SDI), a missile defense system that would be positioned in outer space. The following year, the UCS convened a panel that determined the system was "technologically unattainable."

And they was right, it was just a bluff, as history has shown.

Moreover, Henry Kendall, the late MIT physics professor and a UCS founder member, proclaimed Reagan's plan would "de-stabilize" and upset the strategic balance.

Damn those unamerican MIT peoples, they are almost as bad as those Kent State hippies, reasoning over stuff instead of getting in line.

The union's opposition to missile defense came full circle during the current Bush administration when the president announced in 2002 he was withdrawing from the 1972 Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty.
What a honorable man your beloved president is, truly. Maybe Sweden should bomb the US until dubya complys with the treaty (if that is OK with you cus I want a bigger dividend from my Bofors shares? Need new computer..)?

The withdrawal gave the U.S. more latitude to pursue a ballistic missile shield to protect America from missile attack by rogue states or terrorist groups.
If I was you I'd hit the crack pipe some more so that I sleep better and get a big ass tax cut instead. :thumb:

The UCS is working to derail the project and to that end has received considerable financial support from the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, according to the Capital Research Center.
Those saboteures! (That is actually a real labeling that the Swedish secret police has given leftists over the years..)

But N8, remember your catchy "follow the money" phrase and apply that to how the NED and USAID, among others, has been financing anti democratic upprisings and oppositions around the world. I'll help you with that of course. ;)
 

spincrazy

I love to climb
Jul 19, 2001
1,529
0
Brooklyn
I love N8 so much. If it was published in 'right wing weekly' that the sky is blue he'd find all evidence to the contrary and blame it on the liberals. Bravo asshat. bravo.
 

rockwool

Turbo Monkey
Apr 19, 2004
2,658
0
Filastin
Oh for the days when journalists actually did some work rather than simply spew out PR copy. Lazy gits.
Ain't that the truth, and chief editors get their "big news" for their smaller morning papers (usually) on that string in the bottom of the TV screen on FOX and other channels.

That way they get "told" what to write about instead of digging up something that "big media" doesn't want a spot light on.. No KGB types needed to hang around watching over you then. That's how the human error works in a subconcious cencorship society.
 

Old Man G Funk

Choir Boy
Nov 21, 2005
2,864
0
In a handbasket
...follow the money....


'Scientist' Group's Funding Comes with Liberal 'Strings Attached'
By Kevin Mooney
CNSNews.com Staff Writer
January 23, 2007


(CNSNews.com) - At a time when the Union of Concerned Scientists (UCS) is censuring free market organizations for accepting donations from ExxonMobil, critics have turned the spotlight back onto the UCS, its left-wing positions, and its own funding practices.

In a recent report, the UCS charged that organizations are using oil industry money to create public uncertainty about what it calls "consensus" about climate change and the role of human activity in affecting temperatures see related story. Organizations named in the report have denied the claims.

The UCS describes itself as an "alliance" of over 200,000 citizens and scientists that initially came together in 1969. It integrates "independent scientific research" with "citizen action" for the purpose of developing and implementing "changes to government policy, corporate practices and consumer choices."

But critics say it is an openly political group.

According to James Dellinger, executive director of Greenwatch - a project of the Capital Research Center - the UCS has a long financial association with elements that have a "partisan view of science."
My a$$. A partisan view of science just means that they disagree with the policies of the current admin that are anti-science. If being for science makes you more aligned with one philosophy than another, it doesn't necessarily make you partisan.
 

gsweet

Monkey
Dec 20, 2001
733
4
Minnesota
ok, i feel like i'm always saying the same thing in reference to N8's global warming posts: despite what you might experience right now, all data collected at both the vostok (antarctic) and GISP/GRIP (greenland) ice sheets (coring up to 2 miles depth/450,000 year old ice) point to a lag time between temperature rise (indicated by Oxygen18 / Oxygen16 ratios...i'll explain that if you'd like) and atmospheric CO2 concentrations. it's about 100 years.

with that in mind, i'll challenge anyone (yes, you N8) to prove that atmospheric CO2 concentration is not continuing to rise with the China's and India's increased fossil fuel consumption. the "little" oddities and weather anomolies that we are experience now (increased storm intensities, warm weahter where it should be cold, cold weather where it should be warm, etc) are a speed bump in front of a mountain. i know a lot of people say that the earth and its atmosphere are a complicated system (and they are) but the "system" works through cycles which take hundreds, if not hundreds of thousands of years. pumping large amounts of CO2 into the atmosphere in a matter of 100 or 150 years (a blink of an eye, geologically speaking) is going to have an effect.
 

bac

Monkey
Dec 14, 2006
174
0
Pennsylvania
It really comes down to very basic logic. One needs to know nothing about the science behind global warming to understand which side is selling us a line of bull. Let's face it, unless you are a scientists, you simply dont' know the answer and need to base your opinion on what others state.

So for me, it comes down to this: Who do you trust? Do you trust the scientists backed by our government and big oil, or do you trust the scientists with no such vested interest? If you apply logic to this question, it's not difficult to choose a horse. However, when it comes to politics, logic seems to go completely out the window.
 

rockwool

Turbo Monkey
Apr 19, 2004
2,658
0
Filastin
However, when it comes to politics, logic seems to go completely out the window.
Politics has nothing to do with logic, it's about team spirit. We are born into either the blue side or the red side, and our destiny is to serve as tools. :disgust1:

the "system" works through cycles which take hundreds, if not hundreds of thousands of years. pumping large amounts of CO2 into the atmosphere in a matter of 100 or 150 years (a blink of an eye, geologically speaking) is going to have an effect.
That was soo well put and easy to understand that a pre school kid could understand what is going on, seriously. N8 has no problem in understanding that eather, even though he from a start may not trust scientists and facts that doesn't conform with the views of "blue team", the facts in this case are as obvious as they could possibly get.

N8 you're a funny guy at times, but you're also wicked.
It is not meant as an insult and it hurts me to say such negative things about another person, but I'd rather be sincere about it and hopfully you will reflect on it and change, just a wee bit.
 

H8R

Cranky Pants
Nov 10, 2004
13,959
35
you Global Warming zealots have a new convert.... perhaps you should kiss you some Presidential boo-tay?

:p
If you take ten steps backward off a cliff one leap forward won't do much.
 

Old Man G Funk

Choir Boy
Nov 21, 2005
2,864
0
In a handbasket
So for me, it comes down to this: Who do you trust? Do you trust the scientists backed by our government and big oil, or do you trust the scientists with no such vested interest?
Actually, the government is even having trouble keeping their own scientists in line. That's one of the bones of contention that the UCS has brought up. Overly restrictive rules on government scientists in order to stifle them and make them toe the party line have been enacted quite a few times by this admin, and the UCS has done an admirable job calling them out on it. There's also some pretty fishy cases, like with James Hansen at NASA. Bush declared that NASA should no longer study Earth (climate change) probably due to the findings that people at NASA, like Hansen, were making that made Bush and his anti-science stance on GW look foolish.
 

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,003
149
The Cleft of Venus
:rolleyes:

Trees take on greenhouse gases at Super Bowl
Tue Jan 30, 2007 4:21 PM ET
By Timothy Gardner


NEW YORK (Reuters) - It's red mangrove trees versus greenhouse gases at the Super Bowl in Miami on Sunday.

The National Football League is hoping to tackle the game's heat-trapping gas emissions by planting 3,000 mangroves and other trees native to Florida, but the plan could be more of an incomplete pass than a touchdown when it comes to global warming, experts said.

"It's probably a nice thing to do, but planting trees is not a quantitative solution to the real problem," said Ken Caldeira, a climate scientist at the Carnegie Institution at Stanford University.

The NFL began planting the trees in August and will finish in May. This year's Super Bowl features the Chicago Bears against the Indianapolis Colts.

The NFL claims the trees planted in Miami, and at the last two Super Bowls, make the games "carbon neutral" because the trees will eventually absorb carbon dioxide (CO2), the main greenhouse gas, emitted at the events.

Power for the game and fuel for generators at the adjacent NFL Experience Super Bowl theme park, along with its more than 1,200 vehicles, will emit about 500 tons of CO2 on Super Bowl Sunday, according to the U.S. Oak Ridge National Laboratory.

Attempts by U.S. companies and organizations to offset carbon are taking root as evidence mounts that heat-trapping emissions from industry and the burning of coal, oil, and gas cause global warming that could lead to deadly flooding, storms, and heat waves.

A draft of a U.N. report to be released Friday says there is an at least 90 percent chance that human actions are to blame for most of the warming in the past 50 years.

Contenders for the 2008 U.S. presidential race from both major political parties want to enact U.S. laws to limit heat-trapping emissions. That could place value on offset projects by creating a market where industry might invest in green projects in exchange for the right to pollute.

The NFL should be commended for voluntarily bringing benefits of tree planting to communities, but there are less risky ways to offset greenhouse emissions, said Philip Duffy, a climate scientist at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory.

"If you plant a tree (CO2 reductions are) only temporary for the life of the tree," he said. "If you don't emit in the first place, then that permanently reduces CO2."

Jack Groh, the NFL's environmental coordinator, said the carbon absorbing potential of the mangroves will blossom as the trees reproduce and grow into forests. But he acknowledged that it could be hard to ensure that trees planted by children at schools -- another of the NFL's programs -- will last into the future. He said the NFL was constantly trying to learn how to make its climate-neutral program better.

Even the mangroves could succumb to fire, disease, or be cut down, any of which would release any CO2 sequestered by the trees back into the atmosphere, said Duffy.

Tree projects can give people a feel-good illusion that they are slowing global warming, the amount of carbon in fossil fuel resources is 25 times greater than could be ever sequestered in trees, said Caldeira. Offsets that reduce the amount of fossil fuels being burned, such as solar and wind farms, and perhaps nuclear energy, can be less risky, he said.

Alex Rau, a principal based in San Francisco at Climate Wedge, which advises a carbon fund for Cheyne Capital, prefers clean energy projects over tree projects. "If your objectives are entirely on the carbon ... then it is not so wise a project at the moment," he said.