[LordOpie]

Bob Knight put his hand under on of his college player's chin, lifted it to look him in the eyes.

Supposedly.

I haven't seen the video yet.

If it was an uppercut, send him to jail. If it was innocuous as described, then what's your thinking? Is it always wrong to touch a player?

Personally, I think America has finally become the pvssy country that we've all thought it was becoming if this bothers anyone. I mean, send thousands of kids to die in Iraq, but a coach can't do that or grab a kid's shoulder or facemask? Are you fvcking serious?

 

[BMXman]

Sorry but the only person that was allowed to pu their hands on me when I was that age was my mom....I don't see why it should be any different now...D

 

[sanjuro]

I saw it. No one but Bobby Knight would make the press with the "slap".

While Knight's expression was pure venom, all he did was tap his player's face to look up at him.

The player and his family has said it was no big deal.

 

[urbaindk]

Was it his player or an opposing team player?

I could see it being a "look at me when I'm talking to you, son" kind of moment. No harm done. However, knowing Knight's reputation though, that may not have been what it was. Link?

 

[LordOpie]

Sorry but the only person that was allowed to pu their hands on me when I was that age was my mom...

No one? So you didn't even have a girlfriend?

Dude, we're talking COLLEGE aged kids!

 

[LordOpie]

I could see it being a "look at me when I'm talking to you, son" kind of moment. No harm done.

see sanjuro's post. He saw it and says it's that innocuous.

Sorry, no link. Maybe it's on u2b?

 

[BMXman]

No one? So you didn't even have a girlfriend?

Dude, we're talking COLLEGE aged kids!

What does College have to do with anything....I played 7 yrs of Football (4 H.S. and 3 college) and neither one of my coaches ever got physical with the players...D

 

[LordOpie]

What does College have to do with anything....I played 7 yrs of Football (4 H.S. and 3 college) and neither one of my coaches ever got physical with the players...D

So a literal pat on the back would've upset you?

 

[BMXman]

So a literal pat on the back would've upset you?

you're not that stupid....

 

[Silver]

Sorry but the only person that was allowed to pu their hands on me when I was that age was my mom....I don't see why it should be any different now...D

My mom did the same thing! How did it happen to you? For me it was when I had a cold and she was rubbing Vaporub on my chest...

 

[LordOpie]

you're not that stupid....

But you are if you don’t see the distinction and point being made.

 

[BMXman]

But you are if you don’t see the distinction and point being made.

You're doing a poor job of making it. You title the thread "coaches hitting playters" and then make comments about gilrfriends and pat's on the back...There is a big difference...have you ever played college level ball??

 

[LordOpie]

My mom did the same thing! How did it happen to you? For me it was when I had a cold and she was rubbing Vaporub on my chest...

hey, a son's "love" for his mother is a beatiful thing for the homeschooled.

 

[sanjuro]

You're doing a poor job of making it. You title the thread "coaches hitting playters" and then make comments about gilrfriends and pat's on the back...There is a big difference...have you ever played college level ball??

I think incidents like Bobby Knight and Latrell Sprewell (remember him?) are more common than people realize.

One well-known story which never made the papers was Michael Jordan clocking Steve Kerr in practice. Kerr was checking him too tightly, and Jordan punched him.

 

[$tinkle]

My mom did the same thing! How did it happen to you? For me it was when I had a cold and she was rubbing Vaporub on my chest...

"Dear PaWN Forum,

I never write letters like this, but something happened I have to share. I never thought this would happen to me..."

 

[BMXman]

I think incidents like Bobby Knight and Latrell Sprewell (remember him?) are more common than people realize.

One well-known story which never made the papers was Michael Jordan clocking Steve Kerr in practice. Kerr was checking him too tightly, and Jordan punched him.

yeah but were talking about coaches in an authoritative role hitting players...it should be absolutely unacceptable!...D

 

[LordOpie]

yeah but were talking about coaches in an authoritative role hitting players...it should be absolutely unacceptable!...D

that's not what we're talking about, we're talking about the definition of hitting.

People around the country are saying Knight his this player by saying that any form of contact is wrong. That's dumb.

 

[jimmydean]

I saw the video. All he did was pop the kids chin up when he was staring at the floor while being ripped a new one.

You could bitch about it, but to me he was getting the guys attention while trying to give him direction.

Now the parent that knocked out the ref of the 5-6 year old football game, that to me is worth bitching about. The ref was only 18 and at least half the size of the parent.

Too much TV.

Bobby Knight

 

[LordOpie]

this country has become so pvssified.

Hell, the kid's mom said that what Knight did was perfectly acceptable. If the kid's mom is ok with it, then why the uproar?

 

[sanjuro]

yeah but were talking about coaches in an authoritative role hitting players...it should be absolutely unacceptable!...D

Actually, I agree. I have coached kids before, and one thing I do not like how much influence coaches have. I could easily berate and humilate my players under the guise of "teaching" or "guiding", and I refuse to do so.

 

[BMXman]

yeah I personally didn't respond well to coaches who yelled and used intimidattion tactics and neither did most of my peers but to each his own. I prefer to try to uplift an instill confidence instead of tearing someone down...save that crap for the military

 

[jimmydean]

The Bobby Knight thing (this time) seems to be the same as Lou Holtz grabbing the facemask of a player. It's about getting the players attention and trying to get them to focus. I don't see it as an intimidation tactic or anything like that.

I coach under 7 soccer and I don't so much as raise my voice to my kids. At that age it's about encouragement. If it were NCAA, I might get a little more worked up, but I doubt I would touch a player.

 

[BMXman]

it would interesting to do a study comapring coaching styles....to see who has been the most sucessful.....D

 

[BurlyShirley]

It's freaking bobby knight for god sakes. You dont commit to that team to play for dr. phil. He didnt even smack the kid.

 

[syadasti]

it would interesting to do a study comapring coaching styles....to see who has been the most sucessful.....D

Psychology has rigorously studied negative and positive reinforcement. Negative reinforcement is not nearly as effective or lasting for training a behavior to someone since it is much harder to deliver properly, especially in modern times.

edit - I don't think this Knight thing was significant though

 

[I Are Baboon]

That Bobby Knight thing is much ado about nothing.

 

[valve bouncer]

I was riding my bike a while back and I could see a softball game going on in the distance. As I got closer I could see the coach going absolutely crazy ape bonkers, gesticulating wildly, spittle flying. It was a girls under 12 game. I really wanted to stop and punch that guy in the face. Absolutely unacceptable that kind of coaching for kids.
Adults are a different matter, especially in higher stakes competitions.

 

[-dustin]

It's freaking bobby knight for god sakes. You dont commit to that team to play for dr. phil. He didnt even smack the kid.

 

[kidwoo]

Football players are fragile. Tenderness, understanding, and rational discussion is the key to better understanding of the game.

It's not like we're talking about the poetry club. Those guys are animals.

 

[syadasti]

Football players are fragile. Tenderness, understanding, and rational discussion is the key to better understanding of the game.

It's not like we're talking about the poetry club. Those guys are animals.

Actually the consequences of poor negative reinforcement technique are clearly and graphically demonstrated by animals. You won't lose the game, you'll lose your life or at least a limb or two instead. Poor negative reinforcement technique when working with large or dangerous animals (lions, tigers, bears, elephants) can easily result in serious injury or death by mauling, trampling, etc...

It happens often at small circus and zoos due to amateur animal trainers they hire.

The guy that works with bart the bear (and others) for Hollywood certainly hasn't made it this long by using a lot of negative reinforcement with huge grizzly bears, he'd be dead long ago otherwise...

Here is quick summary of it...

THE LIMITATIONS OF REINFORCEMENT
To use it effectively, you must be aware of these difficulties in application:

1. It is difficult to identify rewards and punishments.

2. You must control all sources of reinforcement.

3. Internal changes can be difficult to create.

4. Punishing is difficult to do well. The research clearly shows that effective punishment must be: 1) immediate (right now!), 2) intense (the biggest possible stick), 3) unavoidable (there is no escape), and 4) consistent (every time). If you cannot deliver punishment under these conditions, then the punishment is likely to fail.

5. Students may come to hate teachers who use punishment. Punishment is, by definition, an aversive, painful consequence. People experience very negative emotional states when they get punished. And, as we learned in the Classical Conditioning chapter, it is very easy to condition emotions. Thus, when a teacher uses punishment, the students will probably feel angry or fearful or hopeless and they will then connect or associate these negative feelings with the source of the punishment, the teacher.

6. It is easy to reinforce one pigeon, but a whole flock...The sheer size of a classroom brings a very difficult dimension into the proper application of reinforcement theory.

...

USING REINFORCEMENT TO BEST EFFECT

What are those correct conditions? Here's the list:

1. The source is well-trained in the theory and practice of reinforcement.

2. The source has complete control of all significant reinforcers for all receivers.

3. The source has complete control of each receiver (i.e. what the receiver does, when the receiver does it, what other receivers are in the situation).

4. The source has a detailed and consistent plan of reinforcement.

5. The reinforcers are always delivered under the same conditions to each different receiver.

To the extent that you deviate from these general rules, the application of reinforcement will be ineffective. It is also important to realize that these inefficiencies do not make the theory a failure, but rather these inefficiencies simply show it is difficult to implement the theory in the classroom.

 

[BurlyShirley]

I know when I played football, the last thing I wanted to do was **** up, not because the coach would hit me, but becuase he'd have my ass running around the field all freaking day. In full pads of course...

Something funny, when i was a kid playing, before "hydrating" was a word (We used to just get thirsty, I dunno what happened w/ that) the coach would only allow us just a few seconds of getting a drink in the middle of practice. If you ****ed up, no water break. haha. That's not exactly hitting players, but its not positive reinforcement either...it damn sure worked though.

 

[Jeremy R]

No sympathy at all.
Its not like the jury is still out on Knight.
He's been an ass for decades, and a very successful one at that.
When you sign on to play for him, you know what you are getting in to. Most of his ex players love him for how much he improved their play. Some people need that kind of treatment, some don't.

When I was high school, our basketball coach was alot like Knight.
I once heard him tell a player that if he could get his momma's tit out of his mouth long enough, he might could play some ball.
The funny thing is that guy NEEDED to be told that. He was a push over mama's boy and was treated like one.
This coach took our school to a bunch of state championships and then he was let go for his rough treatment of players. The funny thing is the basketball program has been horrific ever since he left about 13 years ago.

 

[syadasti]

BS: Its not that negative reinforcement with punishment doesn't work, its just harder to do effectively as it notes above...

 

[I Are Baboon]

I'd like to know how many of the top successful college and pro level coaches got there by sticking with positive reinforcement. I'm guessing, ummm...NONE. The "rah rah go team", pat-on-the-back coaches do not last are not successful at the highest levels. That might work for pee wee and little league, but not college and pro.

 

[I Are Baboon]

I found this link on ESPN's Page 2 that lists the "10 Best Coaches of All Time."

http://espn.go.com/page2/s/list/topcoaches/010518.html

I think Joe Torre is the only one of the bunch that is actually considered a "nice guy" when he coaches, and any numbnut could have managed his Yankee teams to World Series titles (but that's an entirely different debate ).

 

[syadasti]

Obviously professionals use a combination of techniques which forms their style of coaching but they are well trained and experienced. They don't exclusively use one type of reinforcement either.

 

[stevew]

I found this link on ESPN's Page 2 that lists the "10 Best Coaches of All Time."

http://espn.go.com/page2/s/list/topcoaches/010518.html

I think Joe Torre is the only one of the bunch that is actually considered a "nice guy" when he coaches, and any numbnut could have managed his Yankee teams to World Series titles (but that's an entirely different debate ).

And Joe Paterno isn't a nice guy?

I think the young men who play for Bobby Knight know his coaching style and know he isn't the type to whisper sweet nothings in their ear.

 

[I Are Baboon]

And Joe Paterno isn't a nice guy?

I think the young men who play for Bobby Knight know his coaching style and know he isn't the type to whisper sweet nothings in their ear.

In my defense, I know not my head from my ass when it comes to college football.

 

[stevew]

In my defense, I know not my head from my ass when it comes to college football.

hahaha.

 

[ktmsx]

this country has become so pvssified.

Hell, the kid's mom said that what Knight did was perfectly acceptable. If the kid's mom is ok with it, then why the uproar?

I agree somewhat ...It does not seem like he hit the kid at all but he obviously over does it sometimes...violence is not the answer to violence but if a coach ever layed a hand or even degraded one of my kids...lets just say both of our lives would be changed for ever.!!!!!!!....At a pro level our country gives wat to much credit to some people because they can throw a little freakin ball into a basket or be great at the sport they play...When Dennis Rodman head butted the reff he should have been thrown out of the game forever.....now most of you are thinking burt maybe his adrenaline was up and so on......but sit back and think how different you opinion would be if that was your father that he knocked down.....same for that father hitting an 18 year old kid what a pice of SH*T. he shoul be trown in jail for years....................