OK... now that we are in the debate forum, let's hear your opinion. Was Colombus a hero? Or a vilian responsible (directly, not "well if he never foufn America, then it wouldn't have happened" ) for the slaughter of millions of indiginous people?
Columbus... Hero or Despot?
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Spanish/Italian hero, but an overall despot.
Ditch the holiday.
Ditch the holiday.
It wasn't Columbus, the person responsible for the killings is Cortez.
My first post in the Political Debate Forum.
My first post in the Political Debate Forum.
Different killer, different area.
The only thing Which killed which was involving Columbus is vast illnesses not native to the area. So in that way yes he was a killer, but humanely, no.
Agian.. I could be wrong, but I thought that Columbus was only in the US for a breif period, and then he went back to Europe, where he died. (before he could return to the new world)
Exactly.
The introduction of non-native diseases was involved with Columbus, and moreso with the Spanish Conquistadors of Mexico. But slaughter is one thing and death from illness is another.
Columbus did not slaughter any natives, but executed one of the crew members for some reason I don't remember.
Here is some text I found:
http://web.mit.edu/thistle/www/v9/9.11/1columbus.html
The 1492 "voyage of discovery" is, however, hardly all that is
at issue. In 1493 Columbus returned with an invasion force of
seventeen ships, appointed at his own request by the Spanish Crown to
install himself as "viceroy and governor of [the Caribbean islands]
and the mainland" of America, a position he held until
1500. Setting up shop on the large island he called Espaola (today
Haiti and the Dominican Republic), he promptly instituted policies of
slavery (encomiendo) and systematic extermination against the native
Taino population. Columbus's programs reduced Taino numbers from as
many as eight million at the outset of his regime to about three
million in 1496. Perhaps 100,000 were left by the time of the
governor's departure. His policies, however, remained, with the
result that by 1514 the Spanish census of the island showed barely
22,000 Indians remaining alive. In 1542, only two hundred were
recorded. Thereafter, they were considered extinct, as were Indians
throughout the Caribbean Basin, an aggregate population which totaled more than fifteen million at the point of first contact with the Admiral of the Ocean Sea, as Columbus was known.
http://web.mit.edu/thistle/www/v9/9.11/1columbus.html
The 1492 "voyage of discovery" is, however, hardly all that is
at issue. In 1493 Columbus returned with an invasion force of
seventeen ships, appointed at his own request by the Spanish Crown to
install himself as "viceroy and governor of [the Caribbean islands]
and the mainland" of America, a position he held until
1500. Setting up shop on the large island he called Espaola (today
Haiti and the Dominican Republic), he promptly instituted policies of
slavery (encomiendo) and systematic extermination against the native
Taino population. Columbus's programs reduced Taino numbers from as
many as eight million at the outset of his regime to about three
million in 1496. Perhaps 100,000 were left by the time of the
governor's departure. His policies, however, remained, with the
result that by 1514 the Spanish census of the island showed barely
22,000 Indians remaining alive. In 1542, only two hundred were
recorded. Thereafter, they were considered extinct, as were Indians
throughout the Caribbean Basin, an aggregate population which totaled more than fifteen million at the point of first contact with the Admiral of the Ocean Sea, as Columbus was known.
Hmmm...I edited my post....considering myself *checked*...he did do some pretty shltty stuff.
Still, the holiday is a celebration of founding of a new land (new to Europeans atleast)...a great accomplishment if you ask me.
Editing again...after reading the below....so much for what you learn in school, right? The brutality is truly amazing.
Still, the holiday is a celebration of founding of a new land (new to Europeans atleast)...a great accomplishment if you ask me.
Editing again...after reading the below....so much for what you learn in school, right? The brutality is truly amazing.
The tribute system, instituted by the Governor sometime in 1495, was a
simple and brutal way of fulfilling the Spanish lust for gold while
acknowledging the Spanish distaste for labor. Every Taino over the age
of fourteen had to supply the rulers with a hawk's bell of gold every
three months (or in gold-deficient areas, twenty-five pounds of spun
cotton); those who did were given a token to wear around their necks
as proof that they had made their payment; those who did not were, as
[Columbus's brother, Fernando] says discreetly "punished"-by having
their hands cut off, as [the priest, Bartolom de] las Casas says
less discreetly, and left to bleed to death.
It is entirely likely that upwards of 10,000 Indians were
killed in this fashion alone, on Espaola alone, as a matter of
policy, during Columbus's tenure as governor. Las Casas'
Brevsima relacin, among other contemporaneous sources, is also
replete with accounts of Spanish colonists (hidalgos) hanging Tainos
en masse, roasting them on spits or burning them at the stake (often a
dozen or more at a time), hacking their children into pieces to be
used as dog feed and so forth, all of it to instill in the natives a
"proper attitude of respect" toward their Spanish "superiors."
Nor was this by any means the end of it. The genocidal model
for conquest and colonization established by Columbus was to a large
extent replicated by others such as Cortez (in Mexico) a Pizarro (in
Peru) during the following half-century. During the same period,
expeditions such as those of Ponce de Leon in 1513, Coronado in 1540,
and de Soto during the same year were launched with an eye towards
effecting the same pattern on the North American continent proper. In
the latter sphere the Spanish example was followed and in certain ways
intensified by the British, beginning at Roanoake in 1607 and Plymouth
in 1620. Overall the process of English colonization along the
Atlantic Coast was marked by a series of massacres of native people as
relentless and devastating as any perpetrated by the Spaniards. One of
the best known illustrations drawn from among hundreds was the
slaughter of some 800 Pequots at present-day Mystic, Connecticut, on
the night of May 26, 1637.
simple and brutal way of fulfilling the Spanish lust for gold while
acknowledging the Spanish distaste for labor. Every Taino over the age
of fourteen had to supply the rulers with a hawk's bell of gold every
three months (or in gold-deficient areas, twenty-five pounds of spun
cotton); those who did were given a token to wear around their necks
as proof that they had made their payment; those who did not were, as
[Columbus's brother, Fernando] says discreetly "punished"-by having
their hands cut off, as [the priest, Bartolom de] las Casas says
less discreetly, and left to bleed to death.
It is entirely likely that upwards of 10,000 Indians were
killed in this fashion alone, on Espaola alone, as a matter of
policy, during Columbus's tenure as governor. Las Casas'
Brevsima relacin, among other contemporaneous sources, is also
replete with accounts of Spanish colonists (hidalgos) hanging Tainos
en masse, roasting them on spits or burning them at the stake (often a
dozen or more at a time), hacking their children into pieces to be
used as dog feed and so forth, all of it to instill in the natives a
"proper attitude of respect" toward their Spanish "superiors."
Nor was this by any means the end of it. The genocidal model
for conquest and colonization established by Columbus was to a large
extent replicated by others such as Cortez (in Mexico) a Pizarro (in
Peru) during the following half-century. During the same period,
expeditions such as those of Ponce de Leon in 1513, Coronado in 1540,
and de Soto during the same year were launched with an eye towards
effecting the same pattern on the North American continent proper. In
the latter sphere the Spanish example was followed and in certain ways
intensified by the British, beginning at Roanoake in 1607 and Plymouth
in 1620. Overall the process of English colonization along the
Atlantic Coast was marked by a series of massacres of native people as
relentless and devastating as any perpetrated by the Spaniards. One of
the best known illustrations drawn from among hundreds was the
slaughter of some 800 Pequots at present-day Mystic, Connecticut, on
the night of May 26, 1637.
I'm sure some of what I posted is true, but it is also, most likely, somewhat sensationalized.
Very interesting reading, none-the -less.
Hit that link I posted and read the whole paper.
Makes you kinda sick.
I'll still take the day off though
I understand that yes it is somehwhat sensationalized...as the writer is obviously biased. However, I was always under the impression that he came here, left, returned once more for a short time and then left again...I was not aware that he had spent time here and instituted any form of rule.
I am gonna look into it further, but I still don't think we should get rid of the holiday. Considering the main force behind exploration/settlement of the western U.S. was Manifest Destiny...inspired by our divine right...should we get rid of all religious holidays as well?
Unfortunately for the native americans, this country is a European based nation...and with that comes certain customs & celebrations which they may not like.
I am gonna look into it further, but I still don't think we should get rid of the holiday. Considering the main force behind exploration/settlement of the western U.S. was Manifest Destiny...inspired by our divine right...should we get rid of all religious holidays as well?
Unfortunately for the native americans, this country is a European based nation...and with that comes certain customs & celebrations which they may not like.
Non-sequitir.
To celebrate Columbus day is to celebrate Christopher Columbus. You have to take the good (exploration feats) with the bad (genocidal feats). IMHO, the bad outweighs the good, especially since he was not the first in the New World.
The fact that Manifest Destiny was inspired by religious thought should not derogate religion and its tenets, but instead stand to vilify the people who took advantage of it to gain support for a cause.
Tweek...I am gonna have to disagree with you regarding what we are celebrating on Columbus day. Yes the day may be named after a man, but the day represents the founding of western civilization as well as a symbol of great accomplishment and adventure from the European point of view...which is also the American POV.
Without Columbus...we don't exist, well atleast not in this dimensional plane of existence...if you believe in that sort of thing.
As for the religious comparison...perhaps it was a bit of a stretch.
Without Columbus...we don't exist, well atleast not in this dimensional plane of existence...if you believe in that sort of thing.
As for the religious comparison...perhaps it was a bit of a stretch.
Columbus was a man of his day and not ours. In the age of the Colonial powers Columbus was well regarded. Hindsight for the sake of villianization is a useless; use history to shape a better tomorrow. Stop handringing about the past.
OK, so I thought I was going to drop it, but ...
Kinda hard to stop hand-wringing about the past when there's still a modern holiday to honor him.
Read some more books if this has sparked an interest in Columbus. What has been said of Columbus in this thread is mostly correct, but it really involves quite a bit context setting to understand. Get a good grasp on the history of Europe during that era, and seek ethnographic reports that will allow you to perform your own analysis on the subject.
Damn Dude! All that schooling done gone to your head...
