[jnooth]

Specialized tire question-

Ok, its time for a fresh set of tires. they will be used to race Mount Saint Anne, and Bromont. I have started running cut spikes more and more often and really like the way they feel so I am leaning towards hillbilly. I really like the idea of it but have never tried this tire. my fear is that bromonts race course is known for its long rock slabs. I think the hillbilly will be fine in the bone dry but lets face it, thats never something to count on. I think the butchers would be better for that situation but this is only based on speculation. anyone have any insight on what tire is better for my situation?

and please... lets keep it between the specialized Butcher, and Hillbilly. They are the two tires I can purchase for my shop before the weekend.

 

[DH biker]

Good thread idea... certainly useful!

 

[banrider]

i'd like to see this thread supertacky oops, I mean sticky as well... nice work

 

[mtg]

When you compare Schwalbe and Maxxis compounds, what are the equivalents?

Schwalbe vs Maxxis
VertStar = ST/3C?
TrailStar = 60a?
PaceStar = Lust?

I'm thinking of trying some Muddy Mary's for my trail bike but cannot figure out what compound to get.

In addition to Udi's input, the PaceStar compound feels like a similar ballpark in durometer as the Maxxpro 60a, the PaceStar may be slightly harder.

I just ordered a bunch of Schwalbe DH tires for mostly dry, rocky and dusty Colorado and ordered most of them in the TrailStar compound. I'm expecting this to probably be in between Maxxis Supertacky and Maxxpro as far as durometer.

On my trail bike, I'm currently running a Nobby Nic Pacestar front, Racing Ralph Pacestar rear. I love the Pacestar in the rear, its pretty decent up front, but I could definitely see people preferring TraiStar up front, especially if you're riding in damp conditions.

 

[Acadian]

In addition to Udi's input, the PaceStar compound feels like a similar ballpark in durometer as the Maxxpro 60a, the PaceStar may be slightly harder.

I just ordered a bunch of Schwalbe DH tires for mostly dry, rocky and dusty Colorado and ordered most of them in the TrailStar compound. I'm expecting this to probably be in between Maxxis Supertacky and Maxxpro as far as durometer.

On my trail bike, I'm currently running a Nobby Nic Pacestar front, Racing Ralph Pacestar rear. I love the Pacestar in the rear, its pretty decent up front, but I could definitely see people preferring TraiStar up front, especially if you're riding in damp conditions.

Thanks for the info guys. I'm going to order a VertStar for the front and TrailStar for the back. Will test that combo first and see.

Just a bit worried that the PaceStar compound will be too hard

 

[dreads]

when the pros raced bromont the majority of them ran dry tires (minion DHF's since the butchers were not made yet). dry tires at bromont for sure. for mt. saint anne i would say butchers in the dry but if it gets wet some hillbillies would be great, especially if the dirt is still loose and hasnt hardened up too much

 

[marshalolson]

michelin wild grip'r descent 2.5 measures 57mm knob to knob, on a 22mm internal width rim at 30psi. basically the same width and height as a 2.5 minion.

the compound is about as hard as a 60 duro maxxis. maybe slightly firmer.

 

[Bikael Molton]

hmm the Miche is really that hard?

 

[Gelbwurstbrot]

I would not say that Michelins are that hard
They are for sure softer than 60a Maxxis.

 

[marshalolson]

sorry, the 60 duro is slightly firmer than the michelin. bad typing my bad. michelin is maybe 55 on the maxxis scale, give or take, in my estimation.



more:

minion DHF 2.5 ST - 57mm tire width on 22mm internal rim
minion DHF 2.7 3c - 60mm tire width on 22mm internal rim

 

[jarider]

Is the DH24 even made anymore?

i believe this is now the michelin hot.
http://www.michelinbicycletire.com/michelinbicycle/index.cfm?event=hot.view

 

[StabprimoMonkee]

Since we're on topic of compounds.

I have always wondered if going softest is always the best performance wise decision?

If we disregard better rolling resistance of harder compound. What do tire monkeys have to say?

 

[Percy]

Since we're on topic of compounds.

I have always wondered if going softest is always the best performance wise decision?

If we disregard better rolling resistance of harder compound. What do tire monkeys have to say?

Rolling is over-rated, I loiek cornerers.

I other words you can be as fast as a fast thing in the straights, but its irrelevant if you crash in every corner/ gnarly bit cos your tyres wont grip!

 

[StabprimoMonkee]

@Percy: I specifically asked not to focus on rolling resistance. My question still stands.

 

[luckyluke]

Great thread!

Regarding the new Michelin Wild Grip'R Heavy Duty Descent 2.6. The newcomer has the same ERTRO (62-559) as the old DH32, but the tire is different

Smaller/narrower.
Less profile depth.
Smaller knobs.
Apparently different, harder compound too.

So not the golden standard anymore for those who swore by it...

 

[Jeremy R]

Great thread!

Regarding the new Michelin Wild Grip'R Heavy Duty Descent 2.6. The newcomer has the same ERTRO (62-559) as the old DH32, but the tire is different

Smaller/narrower.
Less profile depth.
Smaller knobs.
Apparently different, harder compound too.

So not the golden standard anymore for those who swore by it...

Everything you just wrote is wrong.
The 2.6 is the same size as the old comp 32. It always measured 2.6.
And the compound is the same as the old one as well.
The only all new tire Michelin is offering is the wildrock'r DH which comes with same compound as the rest of the DH tires.
The one change I heard that they made is on the old comp 16's (which is now the wildgrip'r dh 2.5) is they stiffened up the outer knobs so they would not flex so much on hardpack.
I have the 2.5 wildrock'r tires on the way, and I will comment on them after I have some runs on 'em. That tread is great on my trail tires, so I can't wait to run them with the DH compound.

 

[rockofullr]

Decline did an issue on cutting the Clutch and Chunder tires; is that something we can get added in here as well?

If I remember correctly there is a how to on cutting the Excavators/Nevegals as well that may be worth posting is someone knows where to find either.

Just found this the other day.

CUTTING MAXXIS MINIONS (R and F) FOR WET/LOOSE:

http://www.leelikesbikes.com/cutting-maxxis-minions-for-wetloose.html

 

[zdubyadubya]

nice find. added to the maxxis section

 

[Sandwich]

Interesting on the minion cutting. Adding that kind of spacing to the knobs kind of approaches "hillbilly"/cut spike range, doesn't it?

 

[kidwoo]

Since we're on topic of compounds.

I have always wondered if going softest is always the best performance wise decision?

If we disregard better rolling resistance of harder compound. What do tire monkeys have to say?

If you disregard how slowly softer rubber rolls, then what is the point of wanting a tire that grips less?

That's kind of a silly question because 90% of the reason to NOT run a stickier version of a tire is exactly that.....rolling resistance. The other 10% is squirm on hardpack or rocks but that varies wildly between tread designs. And the more companies come out with 3C like compunds that deform a little less throughout the entire knob, it's less of an issue.

So yeah it would be great to say 'regardless of difference in rolling resistance' but that's not reality. The difference in speed between a 60d and 40d tire is huge.

 

[Percy]

@Percy: I specifically asked not to focus on rolling resistance. My question still stands.

Ok I'll answer another way.

When was the last time you saw a 60a (or equivalent) tyre on a World Cup DHers bike?
If harder rubber was faster, they'd know, and they'd use it.

Having said that, I used to run 60a tyres on the rear all the time to avoid replacing them every week! would just bung the sticky rubber on for races.

 

[StabprimoMonkee]

@Percy & @Kidwoo: WC racers are not completely immune to superstition. Take a look back over the last 10 years and observe some cargo cult **** we all did (including the Pros). Not every fast rider is an engineer like Barel and some others. And myself being an engineer I must admit that engineers sometimes rationalize really insane stuff - because it should work in theory (Biopace? OMG!).

And side knob squirm could be exactly the reason to use a harder (42a vs 40a OR 50 vs 42) compound tire in certain conditions.

Also AFAIK Peaty has been known to ride 50 compound tires at times - in races that is.

And I have absolutely no references to back my claims. But would like to hear some opinions.

So is the only reason for 3C tires better wear and rolling resistance compromise, thus ensuring a less variation in performance for longer intervals of time?

Also - I imagine that in certain conditions it would be better to run 70 spikes instead of 42.

p.s.: Kidwoo - calling me silly triggered a level 10 butthurt. I'm crying now, since I was certain that I am only curios.

 

[kidwoo]

When was the last time you saw a 60a (or equivalent) tyre on a World Cup DHers bike?

I can't turn my head fast enough to read the sidewalls. I get whiplash.

60d tires are immensely faster. Go put one on the rear of your bike and time yourself just rolling straight down anything.........literally anything.

So is the only reason for 3C tires better wear and rolling resistance compromise, thus ensuring a less variation in performance for longer intervals of time?

It's also so the knobs maintain some shape rather than just completely squish out and negate the fact that they have any shape designed into them. A knob is useless if it just always moves out of the way or presses flat.

The fact that you could start flicking whole knobs off a super tacky tire after 4 runs probably had a little to do with it as well.

I also called the question silly, not you.

 

[Percy]

I can't turn my head fast enough to read the sidewalls. I get whiplash.

60d tires are immensely faster. Go put one on the rear of your bike and time yourself just rolling straight down anything.........literally anything.

I was kinda hoping someone could answer definitively whether the WC pro's use them or not as well, cos Ive never been to a WC race, so havent had a chance to geek out on their bikes in the pits.
I might ask Hamroll or J-Lo next time I see them.
Plus my original (personal opinion based on I don't want to remember how many years riding) point still stands, I don't care how fast a tyre rolls in straight lines if I keep falling over in the corners cos the damn thing wont get a grip!!

It's also so the knobs maintain some shape rather than just completely squish out and negate the fact that they have any shape designed into them. A knob is useless if it just always moves out of the way or presses flat.

The fact that you could start flicking whole knobs off a super tacky tire after 4 runs probably had a little to do with it as well.

I also called the question silly, not you.

3C is teh rockzor!!

 

[kidwoo]

I was kinda hoping someone could answer definitively whether the WC pro's use them or not as well, cos Ive never been to a WC race, so havent had a chance to geek out on their bikes in the pits.

Who gives a fvck what color superman's panties are you aren't superman, just go put one on your bike and go time yourself like an adult who can make decisions for himself.

Besides, your answer is right here

Plus my original (personal opinion based on I don't want to remember how many years riding) point still stands, I don't care how fast a tyre rolls in straight lines if I keep falling over in the corners cos the damn thing wont get a grip!!

It's whiskey night can ya tell?

The above is what I would like to say but I'm not going to type all that out, plus it would be kind of rude. So the following is my real answer.

Here.

http://www.vitalmtb.com/photos/features/2011-UCI-World-Cup-Pietermaritzburg-Pits-and-Fun,2242/Slideshow,18198/sspomer,2

Go to page 3 in the slideshow. See that HR semislick? That tire doesn't exist in anything BUT a 60d. So there's one example. At PMB I'd be surprised if half or more weren't running hard rear tires. Kind of a moot point anyway because who even makes hard dh tires anymore besides maxxis? Is one of those stupid schwalbe names a translation for '60d rubber?'

 

[S.K.C.]

Who gives a fvck what color superman's panties are ...

...(*giggles*) this intro is EPIC!!!

Commentary:Woo leads his response with the big guns. It's like kicking open the doors to a business meeting with no pants on, firing an empty of Stoli at the far wall, and then calling the whole room a bunch of pVssies.

It's whiskey night can ya tell?

...I want to party with YOU, cowboy.

Go to page 3 in the slideshow. See that HR semislick? That tire doesn't exist in anything BUT a 60d. So there's one example. At PMB I'd be surprised if half or more weren't running hard rear tires. Kind of a moot point anyway because who even makes hard dh tires anymore besides maxxis? Is one of those stupid schwalbe names a translation for '60d rubber?'

To be serious here and all craziness aside, as far as hard vs. soft compound race tires go, I have this observation:

About 4 or 5 years ago Maxxis introduced the 3C compound which without question is probably one of the grippiest, stickiest, most confidence inspiring compounds EVER to hit the market. A fresh set of these on most kinds of dirt will grip like hands to mammaries. Riders rejoiced at the improvement over the discontinued 40a Slow Reezay (SRY) and WC pros ripped holes in space time while defying the laws of physics. The Lord smiled, and it was good.

However in the past year or so I've noticed that the majority of Maxxis equipped WC pros are running the slightly harder Super Tacky 42a. This could be for a number of reasons. But considering the speeds most pros are carrying these days and taking into account how competitive it's getting out there, the main advantage that comes to my mind would be decreased rolling resistance.

So how much of a difference is there in traction between a 3C (40a shoulder knob/42a crown) and a 42a ST? When it comes to WC pros, probably not much considering how fast they are going while stuffing the bike into high speed corners with highly advanced handling skills. In other words, through their Jedi skills they can compensate for the decrease in grip and still rail corners like a cheetah mowing down a gazelle. Rarely, if every do WC guys or gals run 60a compound tires unless the circumstances are really, really unusual like what Woo was saying about PMB or other relatively "flat" tracks.

Woo - I *heart* you.

 

[kidwoo]

I assume you've ridden Super Tacky tires right? They friggin rule. The only problem is that they only friggin rule for about 4 runs if you're on something pretty rocky. I love the things but I just can't afford to buy them for what it takes to maintain a well working tire on my bikes. I think they grip better than the 3Cs but there are only so many days I could put up with loading my bike on the lift and watching knobs fall off a tire I'd just put on that morning.

 

[djjohnr]

I assume you've ridden Super Tacky tires right? They friggin rule. The only problem is that they only friggin rule for about 4 runs if you're on something pretty rocky. I love the things but I just can't afford to buy them for what it takes to maintain a well working tire on my bikes. I think they grip better than the 3Cs but there are only so many days I could put up with loading my bike on the lift and watching knobs fall off a tire I'd just put on that morning.

I've had OK longevity running them front only with a 3C in the rear.

 

[S.K.C.]

I assume you've ridden Super Tacky tires right? They friggin rule. The only problem is that they only friggin rule for about 4 runs if you're on something pretty rocky. I love the things but I just can't afford to buy them for what it takes to maintain a well working tire on my bikes. I think they grip better than the 3Cs but there are only so many days I could put up with loading my bike on the lift and watching knobs fall off a tire I'd just put on that morning.

Indeed sir I have! Yep - I've had the same experience with the 42a ST's. I ride quite a bit in Northeastern PA and Diablo and geographically speaking it's either dirt mixed with tons of loose aggregate or small/med./large rocks that don't move anywhere. The 42 ST's definitely shred fairly quickly and knobs get ripped off after a few days of riding on these surfaces. The 3C's wear MUCH better in this kind of rocky terrain. Personally, I can't tell any difference in rolling resistance but then again I'm not ripping at WC speeds (yet).

Also - caught this a few pages back:

The 2.6 is the same size as the old comp 32. It always measured 2.6.
And the compound is the same as the old one as well.
The only all new tire Michelin is offering is the wildrock'r DH which comes with same compound as the rest of the DH tires.
The one change I heard that they made is on the old comp 16's (which is now the wildgrip'r dh 2.5) is they stiffened up the outer knobs so they would not flex so much on hardpack.
I have the 2.5 wildrock'r tires on the way, and I will comment on them after I have some runs on 'em. That tread is great on my trail tires, so I can't wait to run them with the DH compound.

The compound Michy is using for the new line of DH rubber is the same compound they used on the old Comp/DH series which is a 55a Shore compound.


So here's something I was wondering the other day:

On VitalMTB, in the caption under the slide depicting Polish Pete airing up Gee's tires at PMB, the statement was that this tubeless setup (Conti DH tires -kevlar bead?-, Stan's rims -Flow?-, and Stans sealant) would be used as the main configuration for the rest of the season... on all of the tracks. Don't get me wrong, I think tubeless will be the next big breakthrough in pushing DH performance but ALL of the tracks? Tubeless? Really? I know Kovarik was running his DeeMax Ultimates with Schwalbes tubeless last year at some of the races, but I didn't think tubeless was quite there yet in terms of durability.

Anyone have any info confirming or refuting that the Athertons are running tubeless at all the races? If so - Issues? Are they using Flows or are they testing some new Stans proto rims?

 

[Percy]

Who gives a fvck what color superman's panties are you aren't superman, just go put one on your bike and go time yourself like an adult who can make decisions for himself.

But I am Superman.............arent I?
Anyway it was just a slightly geeky interest in what the pro's run question, I'm gonna run whatever works for me, not whatever the cool kids/ Sam Hill is running!
Which is why I rode 909's for ages, cos they work for me, its slightly......ahh.....un-kosher shall we say, for me to ride anything but Maxxis now though!

It's whiskey night can ya tell?

The above is what I would like to say but I'm not going to type all that out, plus it would be kind of rude. So the following is my real answer.

Here.

http://www.vitalmtb.com/photos/features/2011-UCI-World-Cup-Pietermaritzburg-Pits-and-Fun,2242/Slideshow,18198/sspomer,2

Go to page 3 in the slideshow. See that HR semislick? That tire doesn't exist in anything BUT a 60d.

Yep, I can tell its whiskey night!!
No need to not be rude, its the interwebs remember!!

Ahem, we have a couple of 2.35 Highroller semi-slicks in 50a rubber sitting in the warehouse right now, they are quite old though.
Plus I'm 99.99% sure we cant get any moar!!

 

[marshalolson]

in the warehouse right now, they are quite old though.
Plus I'm 99.99% sure we cant get any moar!!

nope, but you can get 60 duro ones

 

[Pslide]

Just thought I'd add a video to this thread showing how bike tires are made (in Continental's factory), if anyone is interested:

Here is another from Schwalbe, a bit more in depth:

 

[Percy]

nope, but you can get 60 duro ones

Yep, and CRC have ST ones, apparently!

Not that they'd be any use round here at the moment, its a tad wet.........
And when its dry its way to dusty.

 

[kidwoo]

Yep, and CRC have ST ones, apparently!

Read the description at the bottom.

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=5846

Features:

• Super fast for Dual Slalom
• Lightweight single-ply casing
• Tire Size: 26x2.35
• TPI:60
• Max PSI:65
• Weight:720g
• Durometer:60a

Sounds like the same tire I just bought for a little bike. I don't know, maybe they are still available outside the US. If so, my bad. Hard to tell what you're buying from that page though. The link in the upper right to buy the thing definitely says 'dh' and 42a

 

[MarkDH]

Anyone got any comments on the compound used in the new Michelin tyres? I think Maxxis are taking the piss with pricing now so I'm looking for a High Roller alternative, and the WildGripr Descent 2.5 seems like an obvious choice. It looks like from comments above that they use 55 duro compound, but how does that translate when riding, especially in wet mixed terrain?

 

[Percy]

Read the description at the bottom.

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=5846



Sounds like the same tire I just bought for a little bike. I don't know, maybe they are still available outside the US. If so, my bad. Hard to tell what you're buying from that page though. The link in the upper right to buy the thing definitely says 'dh' and 42a

Righto chap.
I didnt read the whole page, just saw the listing title, my bad!

I do know they aren't exactly a big seller, so we most likely wont be getting any more.

 

[kidwoo]

I just had something absolutely amazing happen. I had a kenda 2.35 dh tire (BBG) on the same rim as a 2.4 maxxis dh tire (HR2)..............and the maxxis is bigger.

I ain't even hardly bullshlttin.

Times they are a changin. In future when maxxis says 2.5, that won't mean 'trailbike tire width', and when kenda says 2.3 they won't mean 'yeah bender was stoked on this size in a 24".

 

[davec113]

Any new comments on the Conti Der Kaisers?

I'm currently running 3C DHF front and 60a DHR rear, like the tires but they wear really fast. I have been using the Conti Trail King/Rubber Queen for xc, the black chili rubber is really durable so I'm thinking the Der Kaisers might work out for dh.

Also, any other recommendations for tires that are comparable to Minions but last longer would be appreciated. I would just keep using Minions but replacing dh tires a few times a year is really expensive.

 

[zdubyadubya]

Any new comments on the Conti Der Kaisers?

I'm currently running 3C DHF front and 60a DHR rear, like the tires but they wear really fast. I have been using the Conti Trail King/Rubber Queen for xc, the black chili rubber is really durable so I'm thinking the Der Kaisers might work out for dh.

Also, any other recommendations for tires that are comparable to Minions but last longer would be appreciated. I would just keep using Minions but replacing dh tires a few times a year is really expensive.

As was mentioned, the Specialized Butcher behaves like a minion with a longer wear life.

 

[slyfink]

Specialized tire question-

Ok, its time for a fresh set of tires. they will be used to race Mount Saint Anne, and Bromont. I have started running cut spikes more and more often and really like the way they feel so I am leaning towards hillbilly. I really like the idea of it but have never tried this tire. my fear is that bromonts race course is known for its long rock slabs. I think the hillbilly will be fine in the bone dry but lets face it, thats never something to count on. I think the butchers would be better for that situation but this is only based on speculation. anyone have any insight on what tire is better for my situation?

and please... lets keep it between the specialized Butcher, and Hillbilly. They are the two tires I can purchase for my shop before the weekend.

jnooth, did you wind up getting a Specy tire that works for you? My local hill is very similar to Bromont... One of my local shops has some Spec tires on sale... what did you think of them?

and zdubyadubya, which Minion in which flavour?