[frolessleader]

I raced the Eastern States Cup #5 at Mt. Snow this weekend, and I left the race quite disappointed. My mood at the end of the race was much stronger than just disappointed, and I couldn't wait to get on the internet to electronically bash the mountain at which the race was held. However, I do love our sport and instead of lashing out negatively, I'm going to take this as an opportunity to provide some constructive criticism, and hopefully improve things.

Mt. Snow has been frowned upon in the recent past for re-using the same race courses repeatedly, and I must say that someone has taken that into consideration, and I will commend them for putting together a semi-new race course for the event this weekend. The only problem with this new race course was that none of the racers in attendance this weekend actually rode it. Each racer rode his/her own version of the mountain because the course was not taped properly.

As tempting as it is to go off on a rant about every problem that a badly taped race course causes, I will have to restrain because we are all already well aware, and nobody needs to hear me vent. So instead I will say in a short and concise way that Mt. Snow's race this weekend was significantly less successful due to the lack of effort in taping the course, and I think a lot of other riders felt the same way.

What is most aggravating to me personally is the fact that this same problem occurred at the Eastern States Cup #3 race at Mt. Snow. The problem was eventually solved before race day at the #3 race, but you would think that Mt. Snow might have learned from their mistake last time and used it as an opportunity to improve. I find it pretty insulting when I travel there, spend $60 to race, and my money doesn't even buy me a taped course.

I'm making this thread because I would like to see Mt. Snow improve, not because I want to trash them. As of now I have to say in the most respectful way possible that they do a pretty poor job of hosting a downhill race, and it shows when you compare their attendance with that of other races. I would love to see Mt. Snow step it up and improve their operations, but in order to do that they are going to need to start looking at mountain biking a little more seriously instead of just adding it on as an afterthought.

To anyone from Mt. Snow,
Please take this as positively as possible and use it as constructive criticism for the future.

 

[Iridemtb]

Well... I am in no way affiliated with Mt. Snow. But I read that... What else makes the whole event hosting suck besides course tape? You wrote 5 paragraphs about course tape.

I think this smilee would appropriately fit your post:

 

[ldw222]

I don't know man...I think you might be off base a little on this one. The super d course wasn't taped but I think they wanted it that way, so people could careen down the course and pick different lines. The downhill course seemed like it was taped pretty well though. There were some spots you could cut corners and straighten but pretty much only on the open ski trail parts. The woods were taped tight.

You have to think about this too...it has to be tough to run these races and make money at it. The turnout is pretty bad sometimes and they're probably not sure how much to put into it. The turnout isn't on them either...every weekend there are multiple races. There needs to be some generation of interest in racing not just putting on races...

 

[frolessleader]

Well... I am in no way affiliated with Mt. Snow. But I read that... What else makes the whole event hosting suck besides course tape? You wrote 5 paragraphs about course tape.

I think this smilee would appropriately fit your post:

First of all, don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say anything about the whole event sucking, in fact I said I think that Mt. Snow did a good job cutting a new course. I think taping a course from top to bottom is a pretty important part of hosting an event so I wrote 5 paragraphs about it. Sorry to waste your precious time on the internet.

 

[frolessleader]

I don't know man...I think you might be off base a little on this one. The super d course wasn't taped but I think they wanted it that way, so people could careen down the course and pick different lines. The downhill course seemed like it was taped pretty well though. There were some spots you could cut corners and straighten but pretty much only on the open ski trail parts. The woods were taped tight.

You have to think about this too...it has to be tough to run these races and make money at it. The turnout is pretty bad sometimes and they're probably not sure how much to put into it. The turnout isn't on them either...every weekend there are multiple races. There needs to be some generation of interest in racing not just putting on races...

I agree with you about to woods being taped well, there were no problems there, but I think those corners on the ski slope definitely should have been taped off. As far as the Super D, I have no idea what their intent was so I won't speculate but I will say that it was hilarious to watch those guys bomb down through the middle of those corners.

I can't say that I agree with you about Mt. Snow's turnout though. I know plenty of people that have stopped attending Mt. Snow races because they were disappointed with the quality of the hosting. I think your right that other races dilute the attendance to a certain extent, but I think that if Mt. Snow wants to increase their attendance they need to give people a reason to show up.

 

[binary visions]

FYI, a representative from Mt. Snow reads and responds in this forum:

http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=166

 

[bizutch]

Last time I raced Mt. Snow the only place taped was the woods....and I think that was because they something to strap the tape to. That was at Nationals. What tape was on slopes just got blown up when you got hurled off into grassy, mystery rock oblivion. And if you did veer off course, you were an idiot to dare the minefield.

Fun, fun times. I didn't see this course, but typically Mt. Snow is a straight, 5 lane highway down the grass and hella fun. But since I wasn't there, I can't speak on it. Just had to reminisce(sp?).

 

[Drummer Racer1]

I have to say I was pretty disappointed/frustrated about the taping at the race too..

Everything was taped decently well at the beginning of practice Saturday but as people skid off course and ride into marking poles tape disappears - understandable at a muddy race. However, its hard when you practice for the rest of the day wondering if they are going to re-tape to the original spec after practice (which is what most other races do) or if they are just going to leave it as is, with all the ridiculous corner and entire section cutting lines. Its a shame because I feel these lines cut out some of the more challenging and fun parts of the course..

So I'm sure someone is going to tell me thats what racing is about and bla bla bla but I entirely disagree. I think racing should be a course which is entirely taped, find the line you want inside the tape and pin it; may the best man win. (and this is coming from someone that doesn't really have a chance of getting on the podium)

I hope mt snow figures out taping courses, even if its just taping the inside coursers for next year because although they have taken some heat for re-using and having crappy courses, I thought each race was pretty sweet this year.

 

[Mount Snow]

Well guys I guess it's just never enough for some. frolessleader you can say that you are intending constructive criticism but lets just call a spade a spade. You don't like something so you are bashing it. It's insulting to say that we don't care about our events when we spent 3 days on the hill setting up for the weekend pounding every piece of bamboo into the ground by hand. We fixed any down tape on Sunday morning and had 12 marshals on course that would fix tape when they saw a piece taken out by another rider.

If we stop the race to make fixes the riders are pissed that its taking too long and awards won't happen for a while and you get on the road home late. If we don't fix every piece of tape we're lazy and show no effort. We can't seem to win either way.

Do you really want to know what is killing mountain biking? The fact that everyone is an expert on everything and goes out bashing places instead of having conversations with the organizers. I'm at every event and pretty darn easy to find. If you have a concern then come talk to me. No one said a thing to me about tape issues at any of the races this year. How about someone come and talk to me and let me know so I can fix it.

If you want a course taped from top to bottom it isn't going to happen here. We tape the areas that are necessary and its more than sufficient. If people are going to cheat more tape will not solve the problem.

Out of 90 racers this weekend there are 2 with negative comments about the taping. That makes you the minority opinion. Sorry that you are insulted by our taping with the $60 you spent. But for your money you received two days of lift access (which is $60 in its own), a race course and awards. I would say that's a pretty good value. Especially when as a series Mount Snow has just about broken even on its events this year. Remind me again why we run these events? It's certainly not because I enjoy getting pissed off over posts like this.

To everyone else who enjoyed the racing this year thank you very much for coming out. It's almost always a pleasure.

 

[Jeremy R]

I couldn't wait to get on the internet to electronically bash the mountain at which the race was held. .

Take cover everyone, we have a real keyboard warrior on our hands here.

 

[MinorThreat]

FYI, a representative from Mt. Snow reads and responds in this forum.

Evidently; except that, sadly, they don't come away with anything from it other than the impression that criticism is "bashing."

I can't in any way comment on the specifics of this situation, having never been to Mt. Snow, but I will remind Mt. Snow's poster of the age-old marketing axiom that for every person disgruntled enough to actually vocalize their dissatisfaction in public, there are at least 10 others who feel the same way who say nothing.

 

[soul-skier]

i had a great time racing all three events at snow this year. this was actually my first year ever riding at snow and i look forward to returning. trail 13 is epic. i have to say the weather turned out perfect. perfect for mountain biking.

 

[MM_Freak]

From the dozen or so people I got to ride with at mount snow everyone had a good time at all 3 races. Im just glad to have a mountain within an hours drive of me that hosts DH races. I for one would like to thank Mount snow and the crew that put on these events and I hope they can have more than 3 races there next year.

 

[kickstand]

I get nothing but pissed off when I see people bitch about ski hills that are actually willing to open their lifts and trails for riding and racing....quit your bitching and go out and offer to volunteer to tape the course if its that big of a deal....oh yeah, thats exactly what I thought.

Be happy and lucky your area HAS downhill racing you whineass.

 

[fortenndu]

I'm going to have to disagree, the times were within seconds of eachother even with people making mistakes and crashing. The course could have been prepped better but it turned out to be pretty fun to race. Everyone that was up with me liked it and thought it was fair. However, Mount Snow needs a start gate set up, this weekends set up was lame.

 

[bizutch]

The net sucks for things like this. The thread starter needed to man up and take his little fairy keyboard sword and put it away. Suck it up little princess and speak with the promoter personally. Consult them face to face and have an open conversation to explain your concerns. GIVE THEM THE CHANCE TO ADDRESS THEM BEFORE SPEWING YOUR LITTLE FINGER FARTS ONTO A KEYBOARD AND STINKING UP A FORUM!

The internet will not solve your problem guy. Approach them. Use your words. Listen for a response. Then communicate and resolve it.

Now, instead of maybe a course marshall hustling up to a section you thought was a concern, you let hundreds of people read what a "bad" job someone did. Lame!

 

[Sandwich]

yo froless, you had a great rant and imma let you finish, but bizutch just had one of the best rants of all time. Of all time

sorry, I have nothing else to add, except while RM can be effective in solving issues like this, bringing it up in person is better...but you have to actually be able to find the person in charge and have them listen to you, which can be a challenge during a race weekend.

 

[Staplerzzzz]

Let me start off by saying that I enjoyed Mt snow's course this weekend a lot.

There were a few issues with course taping in some area where it was left to the riders interpretation. I completely understand not taping the whole course off both sides. That's a lot of work, time, and a lot of tape being wasted. [It's actually really disgusting thinking of all the tape/plastic that the mountain bike industry uses /plastic rant]. I think it should be noted that usually as long as the inside of corners are taped, usually that can be enough. During practice, I did notice a few poles knocked over hear and there, and tape being ripped. That can easily be corrected by riders; if you broke the tape, tape/tie it back together. If you knocked over a pole, stop and put it back up where it was or let the trail crew know. Something to be noted is that us as riders usually know the course better than the trail crew since we ride the course non stop for two days. Rider participation is what helps events run smoother. I know that Fisher did make a few call outs to let him know if there were any area's that needed new tape.

On another note, it was sad to see such a poor turnout. With all these new mountains starting to offer races (which would be great if there weren't two other races the same weekend), it has started to dilute the racing scene. I think communication between the mountains is much needed.

A slight criticism I do have is that the same courses have been run so much. This year, there was a greater effort put into mixing things up than in the past IMO, which was great. But I think there is room for improvement. I do understand that Mt Snow is national forest and isn't allowed to do what they want. So this might be up to us as riders to discuss, and help out.

I would like to thank Fisher, Doug, and the rest of the Mt snow crew for putting on these events. They've done a great job with the timing system they have set in place. I've never heard of any timing issues ever there, unlike many other mountains. They prizes are solid. They put out Ice cold water in a convenient location; some mountains don't even have water facilities!

Just remember take a step back, look at what is done well and appreciate that. I'm sure they'd open to criticism if you have any, but they won't know unless you actually tell them.

Sadly, that took me 45 minutes to type up and edit. Now I need some food.

 

[IH8Rice]

says a lot about the people who blow off course during practice and dont fix the tape they just tore down.

taping a whole course is a huge pain and when people cut the tape accidentally and dont fix it, it makes it even more of a PITA for the trail crew, especially before Sunday's scheduled races.

 

[frolessleader]

Alright,

I overreacted and I apologize to all those who were offended by my post. However, during the race I actually did mention to officials that there were spots on the top of the course that needed to be taped and nothing was done. Bottom line is, I would like to see Mt. Snow continue to hold races but, I would also like to see an improvement in the taping of their courses. I went about expressing my opinion in the wrong manor. Again, I apologize if i offended anyone, that was not my intent.

 

[pterodactyl]

Theres a lot of spoiled bratty kids in this sport...with plenty of whinning handed out from them with their bikes that their parents bought, their pink and yellow pajamas...have a couple kids and you'll realize you dont have time to bitch about tape on a course. Harden eh F#*K up. I would slap you if you were in front of me.

Anyway...

I used to race the NORBA nationals at Mt Snow (when the yard sale was being used as the yardsale), but was turned off by them as the mountain was restricted for riding during non-practice times. I'm not a kid like most on here and can afford to pay for whatever I need too, but, the lodging was too expensive and they charged for parking. The volunteers were pricks too. In general, the atmosphere was not enjoyable, not like the other regional races are today.

On the up side, the courses were great.

I've shied away from going back for the regional races because of the comments that others that have raced there have had. In general, compared to a Platty or Diablow race weekend, Mt Snow doesnt sound as fun.

Unfortunately, Mt Snow has a bad reputation. The worst being that they use the same course over and over. Some improvements seem to be that you can camp in the parking lot and there is no charge. Using the same course repeatedly, is just a bad idea but not a deal breaker for me, but not being able to ride other parts of the mountain on a race weekend is a deal killer.

I would love to hear good things about Mt Snow as it is only 1:15 minutes from my house. Prove me wrong and I will be at the next race...I guess next year...

 

[jonKranked]

In regards to the trail network and trail usage...

A RUMOR I have heard numerous times from several independent sources (not related to Mt Snow itself) is that the trail network has not been expanded and essentially CANNOT be expanded because the resort itself is located within Green Mountain National Forest. Is there anyone that can confirm or deny this, or at least shed some light on this issue?

 

[TheTruth]

In regards to the trail network and trail usage...

A RUMOR I have heard numerous times from several independent sources (not related to Mt Snow itself) is that the trail network has not been expanded and essentially CANNOT be expanded because the resort itself is located within Green Mountain National Forest. Is there anyone that can confirm or deny this, or at least shed some light on this issue?

 

[MtSnowGuide]

I would first like to thank all that did come to MtSnow for this last weekends events. I also appreciate the fact that people are still interested in coming to visit us.
All i can say is look to the future. There are a few very dedicated riders here working for the mountain and we are doing what we can to build up the gnar. We have a rolodex full of ideas that we are trying to complete. I would like to bring some air time to the hill (trail 19) as well as some more features and ladders. Our mountain has some fantastic natural terrain and we hope to build off of natures standards.

as for the taping i watched two different riders ride directly into the tape laughing....please don’t do that.

i was very surprised to see all the cheater lines down the mountain after the race...it's not hard to see what is trail and what isn't....don't be a cheater

i am welcome to all criticisms…we only want to make it more fun for you
skid in your shorts, not on our trails

 

[MFrider]

I agree about the "cheater lines". But are they really cheater lines if the rider stays within the tape?? I guess this is the issue the OP has. I don't care either way. Mount Snow mowed the grass as the intended race course, but racers will do anything to gain an edge, if there is no tape on the inside line and they can go straight at the next turn with tape, they are going to do it. This is what happened, I don't think they really needed that much more tape, it just needed to be placed at the inside of the turn.

I had a great time, all 3 courses were fun, weather was good for the last race, for a change... Keep up the good work, from what I counted there were 90 riders at Mount Snow and about 92 at Blue, would have been nice to see 180 at either event.

Do we have too many races???

 

[IH8Rice]

if there is no tape on the inside line and they can go straight at the next turn with tape, they are going to do it.

which technically is 100% legal.

 

[DirtBag]

Suggestions:

1. On practice days, have organizers/volunteers observe riders. If they knock down tape, and don't attempt to fix it or notify someone, they can't race. Riders knocking stuff down and laughing at it can laugh at the bottom wasting the entry fee.

2. Don't charge for everything. Race fee of $60 that includes 2 days of lift service and race fee is a good deal. Don't ruin it by charging for parking.

3. NE mountains should all meet/talk/consult and schedule race weekends. That way there are not 2 BIG races on the same weekend within a reasonable distance.

There are more than enough racers in NE to support big races. Mountains need to offer something to get people there. 10 years in a row of the same race trail is not enticing.

 

[bizutch]

Let me start off by saying that I enjoyed Mt snow's course this weekend a lot.

There were a few issues with course taping in some area where it was left to the riders interpretation. I completely understand not taping the whole course off both sides. That's a lot of work, time, and a lot of tape being wasted. [It's actually really disgusting thinking of all the tape/plastic that the mountain bike industry uses /plastic rant]. I think it should be noted that usually as long as the inside of corners are taped, usually that can be enough. During practice, I did notice a few poles knocked over hear and there, and tape being ripped. That can easily be corrected by riders; if you broke the tape, tape/tie it back together. If you knocked over a pole, stop and put it back up where it was or let the trail crew know. Something to be noted is that us as riders usually know the course better than the trail crew since we ride the course non stop for two days. Rider participation is what helps events run smoother. I know that Fisher did make a few call outs to let him know if there were any area's that needed new tape.

On another note, it was sad to see such a poor turnout. With all these new mountains starting to offer races (which would be great if there weren't two other races the same weekend), it has started to dilute the racing scene. I think communication between the mountains is much needed.

A slight criticism I do have is that the same courses have been run so much. This year, there was a greater effort put into mixing things up than in the past IMO, which was great. But I think there is room for improvement. I do understand that Mt Snow is national forest and isn't allowed to do what they want. So this might be up to us as riders to discuss, and help out.

I would like to thank Fisher, Doug, and the rest of the Mt snow crew for putting on these events. They've done a great job with the timing system they have set in place. I've never heard of any timing issues ever there, unlike many other mountains. They prizes are solid. They put out Ice cold water in a convenient location; some mountains don't even have water facilities!

Just remember take a step back, look at what is done well and appreciate that. I'm sure they'd open to criticism if you have any, but they won't know unless you actually tell them.

Sadly, that took me 45 minutes to type up and edit. Now I need some food.

Post too long. No read!

 

[jonKranked]

tl;dr

fixed

 

[slowitdown]

1) the fact that lots of people had fun doesn't mean the course and the race organizing can't be improved.

2) saying the race "has to make money" is a sure way to find the race has room for improvement. racing isn't about making money. it's about providing a competition for people to test themselves, both against themselves and against others. it's not a "market" waiting to be "cultivated" for profit.

3) race organizers that see or hear only "bashing" when people offer complaints... too proud, too closed-minded.

EVERYTHING on Earth can be improved. EVERYTHING.

 

[jonKranked]

2) saying the race "has to make money" is a sure way to find the race has room for improvement. racing isn't about making money. it's about providing a competition for people to test themselves, both against themselves and against others. it's not a "market" waiting to be "cultivated" for profit.

from the perspective of the racer and the promoter. From the perspective of the mountain that owns the facilities used/leased for the event, money is typically the bottom line.

EVERYTHING on Earth can be improved. EVERYTHING.

bacon

 

[slowitdown]

from the perspective of the racer and the promoter. From the perspective of the mountain that owns the facilities used/leased for the event, money is typically the bottom line.

"money is the bottom line" is a bit vague. you mean Mt Snow insists that there be a profit?

bacon

raw bacon is improved by cooking. those who like crisp bacon find cooked but soggy bacon improved by more cooking. already-cooked bacon can be improved by letting it cool, crumbling it, and adding it to other stuff.

see, always room for improvement.

 

[marshalolson]

"money is the bottom line" is a bit vague. you mean Mt Snow insists that there be a profit?

they proll won't continue if they are loosing money on the deal, or covering the costs of insurance at the least.

 

[slowitdown]

they proll won't continue if they are loosing money on the deal, or covering the costs of insurance at the least.

that makes sense.

I wouldn't want to lose money or have the insurance premium unpaid. but it would seem those things can be addressed easily, and if the race organizer isn't addressing them, that's another area for improvement -- right?

I don't think I'd want to organize a race at a ski hill where the ski hill operator insisted I make a profit on the race. that's a crappy attitude... but I understand, it's not all that uncommon in America.

 

[marshalolson]

the ski operator does not care if the organizer makes any money. they care if THEY will make any money, cover the cost of expanded staff, cost of hosting etc.

if the net sum is negative, then WHY would they? times are tight man. every ski hill on the planet is struggling to stay open. why would they do something to reduce their revenues?

 

[Huck Banzai]

Wow, Mt. Snow posts an offical copout.

Thats pretty weak.

Good thing the 'mountain' is pretty meaningless to DH these days. Let it stay that way.

 

[slowitdown]

the ski operator does not care if the organizer makes any money. they care if THEY will make any money, cover the cost of expanded staff, cost of hosting etc.

if the net sum is negative, then WHY would they? times are tight man. every ski hill on the planet is struggling to stay open. why would they do something to reduce their revenues?

There are three possible outcomes, you're assuming there are only 2.

1) make a profit
2) break even
3) lose money

No reason to insist on making a profit, even if times are tight.

Plenty of reason to insist on not losing money, on not being able to pay the people to run lifts and concessions, on not being able to pay the insurance premium.

I'm saying, why demand a profit? The fact that times are tough doesn't mean it's reasonable to demand a profit. Nobody made the ski hill operator choose that line of work. Nobody made them have any particular expectation. It's not their right to distort the nature of racing just so they can feel comfortable.

But as I said, I realize -- here in America, greed is more prevalent than the notion of being accommodating.

 

[Zaphoid]

Yo Slowitdown I really hate you. Like every other post you make is just stupid. It is a business what other incentive do they have to host races???? The goodness of their hearts??? You can only break even for so long before it just is not worth it anymore.

 

[IH8Rice]

i was very surprised to see all the cheater lines down the mountain after the race...it's not hard to see what is trail and what isn't....don't be a cheater

its not cheating if it's taped right.

 

[G30RG3ryan]

If it's not taped, it's fair game.