[Andeh]

The 64.5-65 head angle seems to be at odds with just about everything else in your wishlist. Especially the "rougher trails and bike parks" part. The last "enduro" bike that I had with a HTA >64 was a 2013 Nomad. The last full suspension bike I had of any classification with a >64 HTA was a 120mm Smuggler.

If you look at what some of what the top EWS (sorry, EDR) guys are doing, I think it lines up with what you're looking for. They're sizing down in reach and throwing a longer fork and/or angleset on to slack out and raise up the front end / BB. That lets them smash through rough stuff, but then still easily weight the front end to cut in on silly Euro switchbacks. Slightly higher BB helps the bike tip into corners when leaned over aggressively.

I think for the rear end length you're looking at, 63.5-64 front will handle just fine as long as you stay on the shorter end of your reach. And maybe a 50mm stem instead of 40mm for more twitchy.

 

[englertracing]

The 64.5-65 head angle seems to be at odds with just about everything else in your wishlist. Especially the "rougher trails and bike parks" part. The last "enduro" bike that I had with a HTA >64 was a 2013 Nomad. The last full suspension bike I had of any classification with a >64 HTA was a 120mm Smuggler.

If you look at what some of what the top EWS (sorry, EDR) guys are doing, I think it lines up with what you're looking for. They're sizing down in reach and throwing a longer fork and/or angleset on to slack out and raise up the front end / BB. That lets them smash through rough stuff, but then still easily weight the front end to cut in on silly Euro switchbacks. Slightly higher BB helps the bike tip into corners when leaned over aggressively.

I think for the rear end length you're looking at, 63.5-64 front will handle just fine as long as you stay on the shorter end of your reach. And maybe a 50mm stem instead of 40mm for more twitchy.

So many people tripping on the 64.5* ha
Like the raww madonna, and propain tyee don't exist?

 

[toodles]

So many people tripping on the 64.5* ha
Like the raww madonna, and propain tyee don't exist?

Nearly all the current EDR bikes are going to 64+ HAs. Last weeks podium in mens was 64.5, 64.1/64.5, 64. Womens the same or steeper.

Doesn't seem to be slowing anyone down.

 

[englertracing]

Nearly all the current EDR bikes are going to 64+ HAs. Last weeks podium in mens was 64.5, 64.1/64.5, 64. Womens the same or steeper.

Doesn't seem to be slowing anyone down.

and sized down too!

 

[toodles]

and sized down too!

Yeah Mitt Wokka on a medium at 183cm/6'0. You think they might have to tone down the sizing if thats the case. A 473mm reach is getting up there.

 

[Andeh]

Yeah Mitt Wokka on a medium at 183cm/6'0. You think they might have to tone down the sizing if thats the case. A 473mm reach is getting up there.

Pivot's sizing is off by about a full size compared to everyone else, even if you aren't actively trying to ride a smaller bike. A medium in most modern enduro/trail bikes now is like 450mm reach, and when I was looking at new bikes I would have been on a small instead of my usual medium. So their medium is like a large for almost every other brand.

All the bikes that podiumed with those steeper head angles also have chainstays much shorter than 445. Jesse's size small (another brand where sizing is way off) Strive has 435mm CS (all sizes) but 63* HA when it's in descent mode. Plus I think he also said he runs a 180 fork. Charlie Murray's SJ Evo is like 438 CS (all sizes) for the 64.5 HTA but a pretty low BB (~340). My point was the long chainstays are usually on slacker bikes. Or just get a high pivot bike that starts at like 435 and grows a bunch.

 

[Jm_]

Nearly all the current EDR bikes are going to 64+ HAs. Last weeks podium in mens was 64.5, 64.1/64.5, 64. Womens the same or steeper.

Doesn't seem to be slowing anyone down.

It doesn't...because you got bigger problems if you are endoing on a 29er...it ain't because your HTA is 2 degrees steeper.

 

[englertracing]

It doesn't...because you got bigger problems if you are endoing on a 29er...it ain't because your HTA is 2 degrees steeper.

Now what if the endos are intentional all the way round the switch backs

 

[mykel]

So what HTA are you guys running?

For me:
Trail-Bike 29, 160 / 135 HTA 65.5 / 64.75
DH Bike 276, 203 / 215 HTA 62.9

 

[slimshady]

I had an up close look at this and the "normal" version at Eurobike, those things look mint.

View attachment 196035

That thing looks like spat straight out of this:

So what HTA are you guys running?

For me:
Trail-Bike 29, 160 / 135 HTA 65.5 / 64.75
DH Bike 276, 203 / 215 HTA 62.9

DJ: 26, 0/0 HTA 69.5
Enderpo/Trail: 27.5, 160/160 HTA 62

 

[englertracing]

My 5.5 Is 66.5
Mondraker Summum C around 63
(Was 62 before angle set)

 

[Andeh]

So what HTA are you guys running?

For me:
Trail-Bike 29, 160 / 135 HTA 65.5 / 64.75
DH Bike 276, 203 / 215 HTA 62.9

Enduro bike 29/27.5 170/170 HTA 63.5, 452mm reach, 441mm CS, BB 343mm
Ebike 29/27.5 170/163 HTA = 64.1, 447mm reach, 444mm CS, BB 354mm

 

[djjohnr]

One variable to consider when you're comparing reach to other riders/racers is clips vs flats. If you're running flats and you tend to center your foot on the pedal (instead of having the ball of your foot over the center of the pedal) you're likely going to prefer a longer reach.

NSMB.com - Flat Pedal Platform Shapes, Foot Position, & Bicycle Reach

Some thoughts on foot position relative to pedal axles and how they might influence preferences for pedal shape, seat tube angles, and Reach numbers.

nsmb.com

 

[canadmos]

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/first-look-2024-commencal-meta-v5-sx.html

 

[englertracing]

One variable to consider when you're comparing reach to other riders/racers is clips vs flats. If you're running flats and you tend to center your foot on the pedal (instead of having the ball of your foot over the center of the pedal) you're likely going to prefer a longer reach.

NSMB.com - Flat Pedal Platform Shapes, Foot Position, & Bicycle Reach

Some thoughts on foot position relative to pedal axles and how they might influence preferences for pedal shape, seat tube angles, and Reach numbers.

nsmb.com

flats, but not anywhere near where home boy in the pic has his foot

 

[toodles]

One variable to consider when you're comparing reach to other riders/racers is clips vs flats. If you're running flats and you tend to center your foot on the pedal (instead of having the ball of your foot over the center of the pedal) you're likely going to prefer a longer reach.

NSMB.com - Flat Pedal Platform Shapes, Foot Position, & Bicycle Reach

Some thoughts on foot position relative to pedal axles and how they might influence preferences for pedal shape, seat tube angles, and Reach numbers.

nsmb.com

Wonder if that somehow relates to seat angle too, but I think I tend to reposition my feet for long climbs.

I think my bikes are 65º and 64º for trail and enduro respectively but I'd guess measuring might yield different results. The 64º Mega is definitely steeper than my old 64º Transition Patrol (I think that one measured like 63º with phone angle finder app)

 

[toodles]

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/first-look-2024-commencal-meta-v5-sx.html

Giggidy

 

[englertracing]

Giggidy

didnt realize they were using the the sister daughter of the vpp and dw link.

 

[Redwood Mulch Chucker]

So what HTA are you guys running?

For me:
Trail-Bike 29, 160 / 135 HTA 65.5 / 64.75
DH Bike 276, 203 / 215 HTA 62.9

"XC" bike, 140mm/130mm, is just over 65
Trail/endurpo bikes, both 170mm/170mm, are 64 and 64.5
DH bike is 63.2.

I tried the ultra slack crap with the Spire, didn't work so well for anything but riding the lift.
64-64.5 seems to be the best for anything less than a full DH bike.

 

[Jozz]

"XC" bike, 140mm/130mm, is just over 65
Trail/endurpo bikes, both 170mm/170mm, are 64 and 64.5
DH bike is 63.2.

I tried the ultra slack crap with the Spire, didn't work so well for anything but riding the lift.
64-64.5 seems to be the best for anything less than a full DH bike.

How slack is the Spire? I could look it up but I'm a slacker.

My 2022 Scout sits at 64. In the process of bumping it up to 160mm in the front (145mm back) so that should put me at 63.5

Best climbing bike I ever owned.

 

[Westy]

I have a lot of time on bikes between 64 and 65.5 HA. The slacker the better it is at the steep stuff but sacrifices front grip in corners.

 

[Jozz]

I have a lot of time on bikes between 64 and 65.5 HA. The slacker the better it is at the steep stuff but sacrifices front grip in corners.

Learning curve from 2017 to 2022 frame was the longest I had ever experienced. At first I felt like a passenger on the bike. Took me at least 10 rides to adjust my riding style to this wizardry.

 

[Westy]

Learning curve from 2017 to 2022 frame was the longest I had ever experienced. At first I felt like a passenger on the bike. Took me at least 10 rides to adjust my riding style to this wizardry.

Same. Actually having to weight the front end was weird at first, but some front wheel drifting was motivation to adapt quickly.

 

[slimshady]

I have a lot of time on bikes between 64 and 65.5 HA. The slacker the better it is at the steep stuff but sacrifices front grip in corners.

A friend of a friend went to an enduro™ racing clinic in Italy, the instructor emphasized your shoulders should be in the same line as the front axle to have a properly loaded front end and avoid washouts. The LLS moniker only makes sense when the STA is steep enough. Otherwise you end up driving from the back as in the good ole days of the Strongwheels™ dominance.

 

[Gary]

Did the instructor also advocate racing while seated?

 

[Lelandjt]

Not a fan of Gigantor reaches looking for 460 - 470

While I agree, it seems in 2023 460 is now a medium reach and many (most?) larges are 480. Shame cuz I think 465-470 is my ideal reach. I want to see these sub 6' medium frame riders pull a manual on a 460 reach.

 

[slimshady]

While I agree, it seems in 2023 460 is now a medium reach and many (most?) larges are 480. Shame cuz I think 465-470 is my ideal reach. I want to see these sub 6' medium frame riders pull a manual on a 460 reach.

Well, Commencal seems to be coming back to moar sensible numbers with the Meta v5. Larges were 490 in the previous iteration IIRC, and now they've taken it down a bit.

 

[Westy]

Pick a reach, be a dick about it.

 

[englertracing]

Re the last few posts
I'm sort of thinking reach isn't THE number.
Front center and rear center are THE numbers.
And that reach is a result of front center and head angle.
Bar placement is separate
Ya know? Like why your 64ha enduro has a 480 reach and a 35mm stem
And your 62.5ha dh bike has a 460 reach and a 55mm stem. But the dh still has a longer wheelbase



Just used a digital inclinometer on my bikes
Pivot reads 65 (pivot states 66.5 wtf? Maybe with rider?)
Mondraker 62.5 (this is after +1* cups)

Alot of my wants come from messing with the geo on the Mondraker.
445-460mm chain stay adjustment. (Dumb shits on the internet will say things they heard somewhere like 445 is more snappy) I started off there
And with the 61.5 head angle and reasonable reach of 454, but looonnggg front center
It turned like shit!
Played with the angle cups.... steeper was better,
Finally played with rear end length and longer was better.
Long front short rear required drastic contortion to a venerable position to load the front end as much as I'd like to, and sort of left the rear able to step out, and also the position wasn't great for dealing with bumps and things, took a big shift back to get where I like to be to hammer through stuff

With my +1* -4mm reach cups, and a 455 or 460 rear end, it rips, super balanced in Corners (even in switchbacks too)

 

[Gary]

And that reach is a result of front center and head angle.

also head tube length and BB drop.

 

[Flo33]

Re the last few posts
I'm sort of thinking reach isn't THE number.
Front center and rear center are THE numbers.
And that reach is a result of front center and head angle.
Bar placement is separate
Ya know? Like why your 64ha enduro has a 480 reach and a 35mm stem
And your 62.5ha dh bike has a 460 reach and a 55mm stem. But the dh still has a longer wheelbase



Just used a digital inclinometer on my bikes
Pivot reads 65 (pivot states 66.5 wtf? Maybe with rider?)
Mondraker 62.5 (this is after +1* cups)

Alot of my wants come from messing with the geo on the Mondraker.
445-460mm chain stay adjustment. (Dumb shits on the internet will say things they heard somewhere like 445 is more snappy) I started off there
And with the 61.5 head angle and reasonable reach of 454, but looonnggg front center
It turned like shit!
Played with the angle cups.... steeper was better,
Finally played with rear end length and longer was better.
Long front short rear required drastic contortion to a venerable position to load the front end as much as I'd like to, and sort of left the rear able to step out, and also the position wasn't great for dealing with bumps and things, took a big shift back to get where I like to be to hammer through stuff

With my +1* -4mm reach cups, and a 455 or 460 rear end, it rips, super balanced in Corners (even in switchbacks too)

Go Titan!

 

[Gary]

Go Mulally... derpworks

 

[englertracing]

Go Mulally... derpworks

I wish that was an option...

 

[Gary]

it is.

But with your particular requirements I'd consider going Atherton 160 full custom geo

 

[Gary]

BTW how tall are you that you like 460mm stays with a super steep seat angle?
combined with a 29" rear wheel that doesn't sound a great combination for back wheel stunting on the climbs

 

[englertracing]

Around 1.85 meters....
Lots of leg.

 

[englertracing]

Also after measuring the pivot 5.5 @ 65
I'll say 64 is probably what I'm looking for

 

[sethimus]

Go Titan!

 

[englertracing]

it is.

But with your particular requirements I'd consider going Atherton 160 full custom geo

I looked and asked. They don't really get that custom just lots of sizes

 

[buckoW]

I looked and asked. They don't really get that custom just lots of sizes

Ask Neko when his will be ready.