[blue]

From www.timesonline.co.uk:

El Salvador-style 'death squads' to be deployed by US against Iraq militants
From Roland Watson in Washington

THE Pentagon is considering forming hit squads of Kurdish and Shia fighters to target leaders of the Iraqi insurgency in a strategic shift borrowed from the American struggle against left-wing guerrillas in Central America 20 years ago.

Under the so-called “El Salvador option”, Iraqi and American forces would be sent to kill or kidnap insurgency leaders, even in Syria, where some are thought to shelter.

The plans are reported in this week’s Newsweek magazine as part of Pentagon efforts to get US forces in Iraq on to the front foot against an enemy that is apparently getting the better of them.

Iyad Allawi, the interim Iraqi Prime Minister, was said to be one of the most vigorous supporters of the plan.

The Pentagon declined to comment, but one insider told Newsweek: “What everyone agrees is that we can’t just go on as we are. We have to find a way to take the offensive against the insurgents. Right now, we are playing defence. And we are losing.”

Hit squads would be controversial and would probably be kept secret.

The experience of the so-called “death squads” in Central America remains raw for many even now and helped to sully the image of the United States in the region.

Then, the Reagan Administration funded and trained teams of nationalist forces to neutralise Salvadorean rebel leaders and sympathisers. Supporters credit the policy with calming the insurgency, although it left a bitter legacy and stirred anti-American sentiment.

John Negroponte, the US Ambassador in Baghdad, had a front-row seat at the time as Ambassador to Honduras from 1981-85.

Death squads were a brutal feature of Latin American politics of the time. In Argentina in the 1970s and Guatemala in the 1980s, soldiers wore uniform by day but used unmarked cars by night to kidnap and kill those hostile to the regime or their suspected sympathisers.

In the early 1980s President Reagan’s Administration funded and helped to train Nicaraguan contras based in Honduras with the aim of ousting Nicaragua’s Sandinista regime. The Contras were equipped using money from illegal American arms sales to Iran, a scandal that could have toppled Mr Reagan.

It was in El Salvador that the United States trained small units of local forces specifically to target rebels.

The thrust of the Pentagon proposal in Iraq, according to Newsweek, is to follow that model and direct US special forces teams to advise, support and train Kurdish Peshmerga fighters and Shia militiamen to target leaders of the Sunni insurgency.

It is unclear whether the main aim of the missions would be to assassinate the rebels or kidnap them and take them away for interrogation. Any mission in Syria would probably be undertaken by US Special Forces.

Nor is it clear who would take responsibility for such a programme — the Pentagon or the Central Intelligence Agency. Such covert operations have traditionally been run by the CIA at arm’s length from the administration in power, giving US officials the ability to deny knowledge of it.

The Pentagon refused to be drawn on the issue yesterday. “We don’t discuss specific future operations or specific tactics,” a spokeswoman said.

This week Gary Luck, a retired four-star general, will arrive in Iraq to review American policy in the country, looking particularly at the recruitment and training of Iraqi forces. The key to Washington’s exit strategy is the ability of Iraqi forces to take over security roles. The general has been asked by Donald Rumsfeld, the US Defence Secretary, to deliver an “ open-ended” review of how US aims can better be met.

His visit comes after two weeks of increased violence in Iraq in which scores of Iraqis and more than a dozen Americans have been killed in the run-up to the country’s elections.

Hey guys! I have a great idea! Lets incite civil war!

Bush is a much less eloquent Reagan without a huge perceived enemy to blame everything on...Gaaah.

 

[Silver]

Reagan had the Soviets...

 

[blue]

And Bush has...Muslim Fundamentalists...look out world! OSAMA IS GOING TO NUKE YOUR CHILDREN! SOON YOU WILL ALL BE SPEAKING ARAB AND WORSHIPPING ALLAH! AHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHA!

Mmm...Painkillers.

 

[DRB]

Under the so-called “El Salvador option”,

Who called them that? The author of the article does. At least he didn't add to the mess by saying "unamed officials."

If you don't go hunting the insurgencies exactly what do you do with them. Continue to allow them to kill police chiefs, mayors, teenagers and women looking for work? Of course you hunt down the leaders of the insurgency with extreme prejudice.

This is a N8 quality article.

But hey at least the liberals got to throw their Bill Clinton out there.

 

[DRB]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,143847,00.html

The death squads have started. Oh wait they been doing this all along.

So what's the difference?

 

[Silver]

Ok...moral high ground, right? We've got God on our side (no matter what the filthy Islamic clerics say.)

So...we've got torture (has Gonzales gotten confirmed yet?), collateral damage (bombed another house over the weekend, oops), and now we are thinking about giving guns, money, and legitimacy to a bunch of people that I'm guessing we can't trust to apply basic principles of law (after all, when you're paid to come back with ears, does it really matter where they came from?)

If my car ever gets broken into to, I'm going to pay the local drug dealer to gun down the thief. After all, it'll take care of the problem, right? And if he happens to kill someone innocent, it's not my fault, right?

 

[MikeD]

[teletype noise]

THIS JUST IN...

WAR IS UGLY AND CAN'T ALWAYS BE WAGED IN EASILY-DEFINED MORAL TERMS!

[/teletype]

Wow, what a revalation! Still, you have to keep an eye to the consequences of your methods, and I can't say that South America's too fond of us at the moment...

 

[Silver]

[teletype noise]

THIS JUST IN...

WAR IS UGLY AND CAN'T ALWAYS BE WAGED IN EASILY-DEFINED MORAL TERMS!

[/teletype]

I wish that would have come through when the President was telling us about the evildoers...

 

[MikeD]

Well, you know, it's the latest news...crap happens...

 

[blue]

The fact that they're training Kurds and Shiites to kill off Sunni insurgency leaders can only add fuel to a fire for civil war. When do they start just killing off Sunni leaders in general? I'd much rather prefer that assasination be left to the "unbiased" Americans...

Does history teach no lessons?

 

[fluff]

Well, you know, it's the latest news...crap happens...

Crap is created.

 

[genpowell71]

The fact that they're training Kurds and Shiites to kill off Sunni insurgency leaders can only add fuel to a fire for civil war. When do they start just killing off Sunni leaders in general? I'd much rather prefer that assasination be left to the "unbiased" Americans...

Does history teach no lessons?

Tell me again who was slaughtered wholesale in the last 25 years under saddam? WHy shouldnt they get a measure of payback?

 

[jaydee]

The US can't win this guerrilla war; they'll be there for 50 years. The only answer to this is to get out of Iraq and let the fundamentalist furballs take over. When they crawl out from their holes and holy sanctuaries and from behind their children and from under their women's skirts, they'll be visible. If they continue to engage in genocide and jihad, then at least there will be a target. If not, well that's the end of that then.

 

[blue]

Tell me again who was slaughtered wholesale in the last 25 years under saddam? WHy shouldnt they get a measure of payback?

Under this train of thought, would it be fine for us to arm and equip Jews to go kill off Germans after WW2 for kicks?

Two wrongs never make a right. It's time for the world to make an attempt at growing out of the biblical eye for an eye logic.

 

[Silver]

"Two wrongs make a right, Lisa"

-Homer Simpson.

 

[springfield1911]

Under this train of thought, would it be fine for us to arm and equip Jews to go kill off Germans after WW2 for kicks?

Two wrongs never make a right. It's time for the world to make an attempt at growing out of the biblical eye for an eye logic.

Well, funny you should mention that .While I'm not a Jew, if my mother, father, sister, wife, kids were dragged away by my German neighbors to put into a camp, where my kids, mother and sister would be raped first, then thrown into the gas chamber, and my father will be worked to a slow, starving, torturing existence before going into the gas chamber, and most of the peopel involvedin this ordeal can just walk away and pretend it never happened, i would be somewhat likely support a program to systematically track down those responsible(civilian volunteers, military personel, camp administrators/operators, beneficiary of the seized property) and serve justice, call it common sense.

If you think about it, the Germans wiped out the Jews(in most part) so thoroughly just so there WON"T be any reprisal. They killed the children and women to ensure no future generations can come back and bite them back. Do you think they would have done it if the Jewish people had a sizable military power to counter the Aryan Supremacy embracers? The very exsitence of fear of pay back is much more effective than "let's be a happy, warm, fuzzy gloal family".

Let's put it this way, If the French nation is so into peace and neigborly love, why do they have one of most sophisticated weapon manufacturing industry in the world? They did that so the germans wouldn't invade again. It's their way of saying, "if you square-heads come again, we will nuke you!" Oh yeah they also happen to be one of the biggest arms dealer in the world, making many allies in the middle east, Africa, and Asia in the process.

If you ever watch the movie "Boondock Saints", the priest's serman, which was about the stabbing of young women in which no witnesses acted in her behalf and led the assailant fleed, said "we should fear the evil men, but what we should fear more, is the indifference of good men". If we do no act in the name of the oppressed, raped, robbed, and weak, we are heping to kill them.

People say two wrongs do not make a right, but a wrong that gets away is twice as bad. I for one do not advocate letting the wrong doers get away with no fear, I doubt they would

Where do I sign up to join the group against the Islamic Warlords that exploit their own people for profit and power(which is probably against the Koran, iwould hope)?

 

[Silver]

We did have little things like...oh...the Nuremberg trials. If you want to immigrate to the US, you still have to answer a question about being a Nazi in the WW2 era. Every couple of years we deport a 90 year old camp guard back to Germany.

What we didn't do is arm a bunch of Jews and say, "Hey, go kill Germans. We know you'll kill people who had nothing to do the Final Solution, but get some payback. Wink wink." That may have caused a civil war...

 

[blue]

What we didn't do is arm a bunch of Jews and say, "Hey, go kill Germans. We know you'll kill people who had nothing to do the Final Solution, but get some payback. Wink wink." That may have caused a civil war...

That's what I'm talking about, I'm not saying "Let people who have committed crimes go free", it's more along the lines of endorsing retrobution against an entire group of people (IE, Sunnis) will end VERY badly.

 

[ska todd]

up.up.down.down.left.right.left.right.B.A.start

-ska todd

 

[Changleen]

Don't you mean R1, R2, L1, X, l,d,r,u,l,d,r,u ?

 

[Damn True]

"Two wrongs make a right, Lisa"

-Homer Simpson.

Three lefts make a right.

 

[Changleen]

Also you'll never defeat this thing you call the 'insurgency' till you admit to yourselves what it really is and represents.

 

[Damn True]

Well, funny you should mention that .While I'm not a Jew, if my mother, father, sister, wife, kids were dragged away by my German neighbors to put into a camp, where my kids, mother and sister would be raped first, then thrown into the gas chamber, and my father will be worked to a slow, starving, torturing existence before going into the gas chamber, and most of the peopel involvedin this ordeal can just walk away and pretend it never happened, i would be somewhat likely support a program to systematically track down those responsible(civilian volunteers, military personel, camp administrators/operators, beneficiary of the seized property) and serve justice, call it common sense.

If you think about it, the Germans wiped out the Jews(in most part) so thoroughly just so there WON"T be any reprisal. They killed the children and women to ensure no future generations can come back and bite them back. Do you think they would have done it if the Jewish people had a sizable military power to counter the Aryan Supremacy embracers? The very exsitence of fear of pay back is much more effective than "let's be a happy, warm, fuzzy gloal family".

Let's put it this way, If the French nation is so into peace and neigborly love, why do they have one of most sophisticated weapon manufacturing industry in the world? They did that so the germans wouldn't invade again. It's their way of saying, "if you square-heads come again, we will nuke you!" Oh yeah they also happen to be one of the biggest arms dealer in the world, making many allies in the middle east, Africa, and Asia in the process.

If you ever watch the movie "Boondock Saints", the priest's serman, which was about the stabbing of young women in which no witnesses acted in her behalf and led the assailant fleed, said "we should fear the evil men, but what we should fear more, is the indifference of good men". If we do no act in the name of the oppressed, raped, robbed, and weak, we are heping to kill them.

People say two wrongs do not make a right, but a wrong that gets away is twice as bad. I for one do not advocate letting the wrong doers get away with no fear, I doubt they would

Where do I sign up to join the group against the Islamic Warlords that exploit their own people for profit and power(which is probably against the Koran, iwould hope)?

Wow, very well said.
Your words or are you quoting/paraphrasing?

 

[Changleen]

And what doing so would actually mean you had done, given that you started this war on false pretenses and that it was inherently unnessacary.

 

[Damn True]

Also you'll never defeat this thing you call the 'insurgency' till you admit to yourselves what it really is and represents.

What it is is the Sunni minority resisting that which they know will come if the Shiite and Kurd majority come to power.

They will no longer control and benefit from the corruption within Iraq.
They know that their days of profiting from the UN's mishandling of oil/food are over and they are trying to stop that from happening.

 

[-BB-]

up.up.down.down.left.right.left.right.B.A.start

-ska todd

LOL...

That also works well against Ikari's but don't let your partner get too far ahead, or you will get stuck behind a rock.

 

[Silver]

What it is is the Sunni minority resisting that which they know will come if the Shiite and Kurd majority come to power.

They will no longer control and benefit from the corruption within Iraq.
They know that their days of profiting from the UN's mishandling of oil/food are over and they are trying to stop that from happening.

So wait, now we didn't invade Iraq to stop Saddam, or find weapons, we invaded to stop corruption in the sanctions program?

You're spinning so fast I'm starting to get dizzy.

 

[The Kadvang]

Wow, very well said.
Your words or are you quoting/paraphrasing?

I would agree, except for the one fact that, to the best of my knowledge, the German guards did not rape the women and children they sent to the gas chambers.

 

[springfield1911]

Wow, very well said.
Your words or are you quoting/paraphrasing?

just some honest thoughts from a monkey that likes to think for the victims :wink:

 

[springfield1911]

We did have little things like...oh...the Nuremberg trials. If you want to immigrate to the US, you still have to answer a question about being a Nazi in the WW2 era. Every couple of years we deport a 90 year old camp guard back to Germany.

What we didn't do is arm a bunch of Jews and say, "Hey, go kill Germans. We know you'll kill people who had nothing to do the Final Solution, but get some payback. Wink wink." That may have caused a civil war...

Yes, we indeed did have the Nuremberg trials, and indeed, a number of high profile Nazi war criminals were convicted of their crime and given punishment. But what about Argentina? How about Austira? How about the rest of the world in which plenty of Nazi perverts resided and got away with their contribution to the Fuhrer?

The problem with the second part is, in a very real sense, almost all Germans were a part of the final solution. Yes there were people who sympathized the fate of the Jewish population, but in the big picture, very little resistance was displayed by the German public. the population was willing to over look the little "Jewish Problem" as long as Hitler brought back the glory of the reich. They wishfully believed that the Jews were being "sent away to relocate", in turn they slept better at night.

Besides, There could only be a civil war in Germany if there are enough Jews left in germany to be given weapons to. But after the war, there weren't any left. Surprise!!!! that what happens when you have, oh, say, an Ethnic Cleansing? you know how many Jews there are in Germany today? no more than the population of a small town in America. And I don't think Germany would allow a mass number of able bodied Jewish men to return to germany, because they know, when the Jews are armed and not deprived of basic human rights, they can put up quite a figh.

 

[dan-o]

And I don't think Germany would allow a mass number of able bodied Jewish men to return to germany, because they know, when the Jews are armed and not deprived of basic human rights, they can put up quite a figh.

I would argue that Isreals aggressive military policies are a result of them learning the consequences of being passive during WW2. As for Germany fearing able bodied jewish citizens, that's kind of an absurd statement don't you think?

 

[springfield1911]

And today Israel has not been invaded by Arab countries ever since the Six Days War. The message of "eye for an eye" is working very well.

Aboutthe fear of able-bodied Jewish citizens, why do you think that the current german Natualization policy requrires proof of German blood heritage in order to be a citizen? Don't you think it's odd?

The Jews were tagetted in the first place because they were feared by the paranoid ethnocentric german public. it's sad becasue the german Jews wanted to be nothing more than, simply, German. But the so called "pure" Germans weren't ready to accept that perhaps a race as, as they say, inferior, as the Jewish people, can be adaquet members of the German nation. If the german weren't afraid of the able-bodies jewish men, why did they pick out almost all the Jews in the military first? Why did they want to make sure all the kids were targetted and rounded up? maybe for them, the only good Jew was a dead one, is that possible?

hate comes from fear, a fear of difference, a fear of others proving to be as adaquet as one's self. Hate comes from insecurity, which desguises itself as a malicious, intimidating ethnic force. If they weren't afraid, the ones doing the hating would not take it as seriously as they otherwise would. think about the Romans, where the conquered were allowed to live and work for the empire because they were believed to be inferior and incapable of revolt. Well the Romans were dead wrong. If the Germans weren;t afraid ofthe Jews, they would let the Jews live and work for them. But the Germans chose to let National Socialist get away with the genocide, that means deep down, they were afraid of the Jews too. They were jsut too afraid to say it.

 

[MikeD]

And today Israel has not been invaded by Arab countries ever since the Six Days War. The message of "eye for an eye" is working very well.

Oh, yeah, look at all the peace and prosperity they've had in the promised land since they repelled that invasion!

Good lord, man, are you serious? Just because no one's tried to invade with a conventional army doesn't mean things are "working very well..." I'm sure Israelis would prefer to be able to take a bus without fear of a horrific and firey death.

MD

 

[Silver]

Don't make it sound like the Germans were the only anti-semites either. That was something that was happening on both sides of the pond. The extent was greater in Germany, there is zero doubt about that, but it's not like North America was happy funland for Jews in the first half of the 20th century (and for a long time before that.)

I'm still trying to figure out if springfield is advocating genocide to preserve Pax Americana or not...

 

[blue]

Wow. Just...wow.

I don't know how this managed to be hijacked into a Nazi Germany thread...Springfield, have you ever been to Germany/know anything about modern day Germany?

 

[Changleen]

The message of "eye for an eye" is working very well.
...
hate comes from fear...

 

[genpowell71]

Oh, yeah, look at all the peace and prosperity they've had in the promised land since they repelled that invasion!

Good lord, man, are you serious? Just because no one's tried to invade with a conventional army doesn't mean things are "working very well..." I'm sure Israelis would prefer to be able to take a bus without fear of a horrific and firey death.

MD

Thats why insurance companies are offering "firey death on a bus" insurace over there

 

[MikeD]

Thats why insurance companies are offering "firey death on a bus" insurace over there

That's a losing business proposition...they'd be better off selling asbestos clothes.

 

[Silver]

That's a losing business proposition...they'd be better off selling asbestos clothes.

Halliburton thought about it...but their asbestos liability is already off the charts.