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Could the zerode bike suspension be the holy grail of suspension design?

rbx

Monkey
So if i understand the maths correctly Zerode is using the ground/reaction force at rear tire contact point to create a "lifting" force at the main pivot.

(moment ground force X distance to main pivot = a reaction in "y" axis equal and opposite to the "y" force acting on the rear contact point)

This lifting force counters the weight transfer created by the rider, looking at the linkage program its seems zerode placed the pivot at mid distance of COG of a standing rider(Which would be perfectly logical)

So you in theory you get 100% anti-squat(throughout all the travel) but with almost no chain growth.

Add a floating brake you got a completly neutral system(i think!?)


Yes i am going to go outside and ride my bike now:p
 

jackalope

Mental acuity - 1%
Jan 9, 2004
5,768
1,835
in a single wide, cooking meth...
Could the zerode bike suspension be the holy grail of suspension design?

No, I believe the honor belongs to the Astrix Havoc, behold:

"The Havoc indulges those addicted to gravity-induced speed. It uses our patented Motolink and PCA that extrapolate the perfect rising rate, an ideal rear wheel travel path, with unprecedented pedal force neutralization. In short, there is no better bike for the serious gravity addict. The bike flows like water over obstacles, yet responds to pedal force like rocket jets ignited. The stability of the Havoc’s race geometry begs for steep, fast sections. Enjoy, but try not to become too addicted."

I mean, they are extrapolating and sh!t...It seems that Sandwich has suceeded where King Arthur failed.
 

dw

Wiffle Ball ninja
Sep 10, 2001
2,944
0
MV
The laws of Physics are the same everywhere on Earth. Even in New Zealand.
 

wood booger

Monkey
Jul 16, 2008
669
73
the land of cheap beer
So if i understand the maths correctly Zerode is using the ground/reaction force at rear tire contact point to create a "lifting" force at the main pivot.

(moment ground force X distance to main pivot = a reaction in "y" axis equal and opposite to the "y" force acting on the rear contact point)

This lifting force counters the weight transfer created by the rider, looking at the linkage program its seems zerode placed the pivot at mid distance of COG of a standing rider(Which would be perfectly logical)

So you in theory you get 100% anti-squat(throughout all the travel) but with almost no chain growth.

Add a floating brake you got a completly neutral system(i think!?)


Yes i am going to go outside and ride my bike now:p
Not the one I rode.

In order to be the Holy Grail, the cup must be overflowing w/ beer. The Zerode has a nice grail started, but all that's in there is foam.

Keep working on it guys!
 

ianjenn

Turbo Monkey
Sep 12, 2006
2,485
282
SLO
Not the one I rode.

In order to be the Holy Grail, the cup must be overflowing w/ beer. The Zerode has a nice grail started, but all that's in there is foam.

Keep working on it guys!
Come to Ancient Peaks it feels much better than that one did. Pedals better, and has better kit. The bike pedals OK not great but it does smooth out the entire trail. Pedaling over rough stuff is very easy no pedal feedback. I need more time on non rock filled trails Tunnel is it's own unique trail not many like it; so a swoopy jump filled trail is the next quest. AP will provide this.
 

wood booger

Monkey
Jul 16, 2008
669
73
the land of cheap beer
Come to Ancient Peaks it feels much better than that one did. Pedals better, and has better kit. The bike pedals OK not great but it does smooth out the entire trail. Pedaling over rough stuff is very easy no pedal feedback. I need more time on non rock filled trails Tunnel is it's own unique trail not many like it; so a swoopy jump filled trail is the next quest. AP will provide this.
I would love to, but it is the anniversary weekend. I would be afraid of the wife using a glock on me!

Hopefully they get it worked out so that trail is open to ride. Maybe charge a small membership fee, like lots of moto tracks do?

Way overdue for a SLO trip, I forget what it's like to carcass in the rocks!
 

ianjenn

Turbo Monkey
Sep 12, 2006
2,485
282
SLO
So i did not accelerate that well?
Well it pedals better than the Jedi did but not quite as well as say the V-10 does. I am talking BOB here nothing else. Now we haven't really messed with shock settings a-lot but plan on doing that this week. It is close to the Legend I think as far as pedalling efficiency goes. The bike is by far the stiffest FS bike I have ever ridden. I did not feel any flex in the rear what so ever.
 

6thElement

Schrodinger's Immigrant
Jul 29, 2008
4,109
1,880
The laws of Physics are the same everywhere on Earth. Even in New Zealand.
See now that's wrong, everyone knows the water goes down the plug the wrong way so something is clearly going on down there.
 

iRider

Turbo Monkey
Apr 5, 2008
1,878
236
The laws of Physics are the same everywhere on Earth. Even in New Zealand.
The laws of marketing are clearly different there. Instead of another overhyped VPP, DW, Maestro, DELTA 100% anti squat, carbon, 1.5-1.25 tapered, 29", history-changing, revolution in bicycle design they just went ahead and finally build a good gearbox bike. Chapeau! :thumb:
 

TrueScotsman

Monkey
Mar 20, 2002
270
2
Scotland
The Zerode (albeit looking very good) is not quite the "Holy Grail". The pivot being behind and above the gearbox/alfine means that the pedal-feedback will also increase as the suspension cycles through it's travel. Also because of the high pivot the suspension will sag under braking throughout it's travel. Not necessarily a bad thing to start with to keep the bike more level under braking.

But, imagine this; the same design as a Zerode but with a concentric pivot with a gearbox output cog smaller than the rear cog to give 100% Anti-Squat (also no need for a chain tensioner!). Add to this a Split-Pivot rear (like the Devinci) so that the suspension sags to start with, but evens out throughout it's travel. In my mind this is closer to the Holy Grail. (but what do I know -I f****d up my own design!!!! ;) )
 
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- seb

Turbo Monkey
Apr 10, 2002
2,924
0
UK
Doesn't the VERY high pivot mean that the wheelbase extends massively, meaning it will feel quite "dead" with very little pop? Long chainstays and all that?
 
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Steve M

Turbo Monkey
Mar 3, 2007
1,995
23
Whistler
Doesn't the VERY high pivot mean that the wheelbase extends massively, meaning it will feel quite "dead" with very little pop? Long chainstays and all that?
In terms of jumping, high pivot bikes (incl. BB7s, Lahars and a Superco) have actually felt really poppy to me. I think it's because when they compress, your weight shifts forwards relative to the wheelbase, meaning the normal reaction force at the rear tyre has a greater moment arm (more leverage) over your body weight, tending to pop the rear end up quite a bit. Damper setup obviously plays a big role, but I was pleasantly surprised with the jumping feel of all the high pivots I've ridden. Cornering is another matter though, extending chainstays feel a bit weird in tight stuff, makes you feel a bit like the bike is understeering.
 

- seb

Turbo Monkey
Apr 10, 2002
2,924
0
UK
Yeah it was cornering I was referring to really, despite my use of the word "pop" :)
 

no skid marks

Monkey
Jan 15, 2006
2,514
26
ACT Australia
The chainstays on the Zerode are sub 17", so it's not as long as the Lahar.
I like the brake induced squat. I've riden high single pivot bikes for years now(2or3XBalfa BB7s, 2xBMW RaceLinks, 1XBMW SR6, 2xLahar, 2xKatipo, and now 1xZerode), half with floaters, and the Katipos I rode with and without floaters. Floaters are better if your riding vague or a hack, as they allow you to keep it together if you're not, but if you're on it, I prefer the feel of the slight squat induced without a floater. It makes the rear feel more accurate, including traction, and knowing precisely where the wheel is. It also helps maintain a more stable geo under braking as the fork dives. I'd happily ride with a floater again if there was no option on the bike I had, but by choice, I preferred my Katipo without the floater. Not sure exactly if the floater on it had any breaking induced squat, but not as much as without that's for sure.
I'm really happy with how my Zerode pedals, with either the Fox DHX 4 in it, or the Avalanche. Pedaling feels like you're an irrelevant power source, and you don't have to concentrate on how you pedal any more than on any other DH bike I've ridden in regards to stomping.
I've not heard as many happy responses to new bike owners as I have with Zerodes. I'm sure there'll be some people who don't get along with them, I mean every bike is a compromise to some extent, and there's always some chest beating clown trying to make out they're good by hacking on a bike.
I don't think the secondary drive output has any noticeable effect on pedaling.
 

fluider

Monkey
Jun 25, 2008
440
9
Bratislava, Slovakia
Yes, the chainpull (pedalkicback) at secondary drive is pretty massive due to very rearward axlepath in Lahar geo, but don't forget there's an internal gear ration at gearbox you must account for when calculating pedalkickback at primary drive. Then you come to sub-average values of pedalkickback.

By putting there an idler you can decrease pedal-kickback so much that at primary drive it'll have negative values (clockwise) aaaand you will gain a level antisquat curve throughout the entire travel.

Edit: Make Lahar style gearbox bike with cocentric swingarm pivot is not that easy due to limited space between rider's legs. GBoxx style mounting is suitable for cocentric pivot.

Edit: And I still don't think you TrueScotsman f_ked up you design. And I won't untill somebody shows serious calculation or experiment.
 
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xy9ine

Turbo Monkey
Mar 22, 2004
2,736
139
vancouver eastside
Doesn't the VERY high pivot mean that the wheelbase extends massively, meaning it will feel quite "dead" with very little pop? Long chainstays and all that?
harder to manual / bunny hop than lower pivot designs as you have to shift your weight more rearward as the suspension compresses to overcome the lengthening. granted, it's more pronounced on my 18.25" static lahar. perhaps not as 'playful' a ride (though still a fine jumper), but like none other i've ridden for levelling out the ragged stuff.

nsm - curious how the zerode compares to the lahar.

and speaking of the anti-squats, for whatever reason, the superco (w/ similarly high pivot) pedals really well (better than the lahar). and the stubbier cs length made for a more playful ride. nearing perfection, that (for me & my purposes). next lottery i win, i'm going to visit the doc w/ a fistful of $$ and make him build me an xl silencer.
 

ianjenn

Turbo Monkey
Sep 12, 2006
2,485
282
SLO
The bike is pretty easy to pull up. But I weigh 207 and am somewhat strong. I think a very light rider would have to move rearward a little. The bike jumps pretty well. Will have some pictures of Alex sending over a 40 footer this weekend. It's a long jump contest so maybe he will crack 50 on it!
 

Sandwich

Pig my fish!
Staff member
May 23, 2002
15,829
937
01776
and speaking of the anti-squats, for whatever reason, the superco (w/ similarly high pivot) pedals really well (better than the lahar).
I agree. The brooklyn was the best pedaling DH bike I've owned. Zero antisquats or whatever, but no impact from pedaling on suspension. Don't pedal like an ape, bike goes forward. I miss that goofy thing sometimes....a lot.
 

TrueScotsman

Monkey
Mar 20, 2002
270
2
Scotland
I agree. The brooklyn was the best pedaling DH bike I've owned.
The Brooklyn (and the Superco Silencer for that matter) would pedal even better if you could change the jackshaft cogs for about a smaller 8tooth cogs instead of around a 20t ones (un-practical in real-life i know). This wouldn't change the overall gearing, just the chainline force angle.
 
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