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Countdown to iPhone 2.0

binary visions

The voice of reason
Jun 13, 2002
21,656
405
NC
I's not a lot under some circumstances. It's a ton, though, when I consider my phone usage habits and how much I dislike the phone anyway. I haven't owned a cell phone in 4 years.

Yeah, owning a car is a small fortune - but it's not a luxury I have the option of getting rid of, and at least I'm pretty reasonable about my habits and vehicle.
 

Toshi

Harbinger of Doom
Oct 23, 2001
27,003
2,026
i find i use my iPhone as a phone maybe 5% of the time, and as an iPod maybe 15%, if that. the rest is blissfully spent looking up junk on the internet, any time i feel like it.

:)

i've seriously wanted a device that lets me do this for years, and it just works. that to me is worth $60/month + tax for my current plan. note 3G plans are $10 more. (my Nokia 770, on the other hand, didn't work for this purpose, or really any at all. it had teh suck and then some.)
 

BigMike

BrokenbikeMike
Jul 29, 2003
8,933
0
Montgomery county MD
Thanks Tosh, you just made me want to kill myself! I hate looking at how much stuff costs!


I wonder how my VZW Blackberry fits into the mix. I'm looking at ditching it for the iPhone 3G and Mobile Me
 

Da Peach

Outwitted by a rodent
Jul 2, 2002
12,585
1,928
North Van
So, if I just wait a while, I could get an iPhone, instead of an iPod touch, and get to use all my iPod stuff that I already own (chargers, FM transmitter, clock radio dock). Plus I get a phone out of it. Hmm.
 

oiswego

Monkey
Oct 24, 2005
128
0
New Yawk
i still don't see the big deal about iphone....

now the N95, that's a phone. can't beat a camera/mp3 player with a phone attached. oh yeah, it's worth mentioning that there are TONS of apps you can install on the phone without hacking it. and gps maps?? saved my ass quite a few times.

and the best part? with N95, all your messages/calls/network usage is NOT routed through apple's servers. i'm still interested to find out whether or not apple has a deal with fbi/nsa/cia to spy on those transmissions. "no comment" just doesn't convince me......
 

Toshi

Harbinger of Doom
Oct 23, 2001
27,003
2,026
1) N95 is really expensive. like what, $800, if you don't buy it with a contract?

2) UI is paramount, and the masses have spoken: the iPhone's UI rocks.

3) i've had many symbian phones before. i do not wish to repeat that experience.

4) the telcos are in bed with the govt. be scared of what they're allowing, not what apple might do in your fantasy-paranoid world.
 

oiswego

Monkey
Oct 24, 2005
128
0
New Yawk
symbian DOES rock--infinitely more customizable and more user friendly. i also like the added feature of being able to competently use the phone with one hand, or with gloves in cold weather.

and by your rational, does windows UI also rock since the masses seem to all use that?

i've used an iphone, i have a macbook with osx....and i'm not at all impressed with either. i'll give it to apple though---excellent marketing schemes for mediocre products. the last really good product they came out with that wasn't just hype was the ipod several years ago.
 

?????

Turbo Monkey
Jun 20, 2005
1,685
2
San Francisco
Can I switch my service plan from my old iphone to the iphone 3g and use the original iphone as an ipod touch?

I'm trying to sell my iphone to my friend who doesn't have at&t and need to make sure that it won't be a brick when I remove my service from it.
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,848
0
Orange County, CA
and the best part? with N95, all your messages/calls/network usage is NOT routed through apple's servers. i'm still interested to find out whether or not apple has a deal with fbi/nsa/cia to spy on those transmissions. "no comment" just doesn't convince me......
And yet it's still routed through your carrier's network. You haven't thought this through all the way, have you?
 

oiswego

Monkey
Oct 24, 2005
128
0
New Yawk
yes, the carrier's network.
similar to the way your post was just relayed through from your computer to your isp, your phone calls and phone-related transmissions should go through your telecom carrier---not the company that made your computer, or the company that makes your phone device.

if my phone calls and text/sms were to go through nokia, i'd be alarmed.

let's say you were to use microsoft windows on your computer. are you suggesting it's normal and/or acceptable that all your data packets be routed from your isp to microsoft, then on to the destination?

that's just ridiculous.

it actually sounds like YOU haven't thought this through, or else you're in favor of other people getting their hands on your data packets ....
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,848
0
Orange County, CA
let's say you were to use microsoft windows on your computer. are you suggesting it's normal and/or acceptable that all your data packets be routed from your isp to microsoft, then on to the destination?

that's just ridiculous. YOU haven't thought this through, or else you're in favor of other people getting their hands on your data packets ....
Well, I assume that anything that goes over my provider's network is in NSA hands already.

Now, you're making the case that every packet that goes through an iPhone is diverted to Apple. Link?
 

oiswego

Monkey
Oct 24, 2005
128
0
New Yawk
from cnet, translating the marketing talk when phone 2 was announced.

"...
The solution Apple announced Monday is a bit of a compromise, ferrying notifications through Apple's servers instead of locally on the user's hardware. Any messages from developer apps get piped into user's phones in one of three different types of notifications--counters badges (for something like a new e-mail message), audio cues, and pop-up messages that look similar to text alerts.

For the better part of a year, users with jailbroken iPhones have been enjoying apps that run the traditional way (in the background), even when the device is in sleep mode. Jailbroken apps like Mobile Chat and Intelliborn's Intelliscreen (hands-on) run quietly, pulling in data every few minutes and popping up with a message the way Apple's own apps behave. The problem is that this model doesn't scale. When you've got dozens of apps pinging for data every few minutes your battery runs out of juice fast. Worse yet, it puts nearly all of the control to three other parties: the users, developers, and carriers.

While Apple's big sell Monday was "better battery life" (see picture above), my guess is that the company realized this would be a great time to get a handle on all the potentially great marketing data that leaves the second an app is downloaded from the new App Store.

Why not find out which apps are getting the most use and offering the developers special licensing deals? Better yet, why not sell that information to third parties like advertisers to help them work with highly used apps to sell ad units or sponsorships while getting an additional cut? This new tunnel for data is a veritable gold mine that's not just metrics--it's attached to user IDs and billing information too.

Apple must be anticipating that users will be adding in excess of 10 or more apps. In fact, I'm sure it's banking on users doing so if only to get the revenue stream flowing.
...
"
 

syadasti

i heart mac
Apr 15, 2002
12,721
290
VT

Transcend

My Nuts Are Flat
Apr 18, 2002
18,045
0
Towing the party line.
from cnet, translating the marketing talk when phone 2 was announced.

"...
The solution Apple announced Monday is a bit of a compromise, ferrying notifications through Apple's servers instead of locally on the user's hardware. Any messages from developer apps get piped into user's phones in one of three different types of notifications--counters badges (for something like a new e-mail message), audio cues, and pop-up messages that look similar to text alerts.

For the better part of a year, users with jailbroken iPhones have been enjoying apps that run the traditional way (in the background), even when the device is in sleep mode. Jailbroken apps like Mobile Chat and Intelliborn's Intelliscreen (hands-on) run quietly, pulling in data every few minutes and popping up with a message the way Apple's own apps behave. The problem is that this model doesn't scale. When you've got dozens of apps pinging for data every few minutes your battery runs out of juice fast. Worse yet, it puts nearly all of the control to three other parties: the users, developers, and carriers.

While Apple's big sell Monday was "better battery life" (see picture above), my guess is that the company realized this would be a great time to get a handle on all the potentially great marketing data that leaves the second an app is downloaded from the new App Store.

Why not find out which apps are getting the most use and offering the developers special licensing deals? Better yet, why not sell that information to third parties like advertisers to help them work with highly used apps to sell ad units or sponsorships while getting an additional cut? This new tunnel for data is a veritable gold mine that's not just metrics--it's attached to user IDs and billing information too.

Apple must be anticipating that users will be adding in excess of 10 or more apps. In fact, I'm sure it's banking on users doing so if only to get the revenue stream flowing.
...
"
You do realize this is only for background apps like chat services etc, which already go through 3rd party servers? :banghead:
 

oiswego

Monkey
Oct 24, 2005
128
0
New Yawk
sure do. makes no difference---you're still giving your personal information away willingly.

the danger here is that apparently no one reading this thread is aware of what kind of data apple can grep from each user. presumably, they will use it for marketing purposes. but the threat still remains: what will they really do with this information?

it's alarming to me that so many people on this thread either don't understand what this implies or simply don't care....and i'll say it: if it were not for the stupid patriot act, things like this would turn a lot more heads than it is. instead, the population has submitted to corporations and government entities having access to our private lives. i still say this is unacceptable---any data relating to me as a person should be given with my consent. using an application on a phone/computer/etc is now an implied consent to use my personal data, which they now own?

actually, i'm not surprised that so many people are not alarmed by this....for some reason apple has created a cult following built on hype only where apple can do no wrong. now, i have an ipod and a macbook....and i gotta say the most "innovative" feature of both is the larger touchpad on the laptop. the rest is mostly a copy from a 1960's era designs (do a search for braun and apple). the "superior" design? it's molded plastic--that doesn't really impress me. the os? it's decent, i'll give it that---but nothing to rave about since linux can do everything osx does for free...and even more, most users of mac don't even know 1/10th of what osx can do, much less the keyboard shortcuts.

the point is---apple's marketing machine has created a chilling environment where their company can do wrong. which is why when they reveal that they will have access to your personal data on your phone....most people just accept it because it's apple. this would not have happened if microsoft suggested the same thing.

oh--and apple's bluetooth keyboard is also sweet. functional and also fits in a laptop sleeve with the laptop..also works with pc's.
 

syadasti

i heart mac
Apr 15, 2002
12,721
290
VT
I'm not seeing how that means every piece of voice, data, and mms goes through Apple.

Explain that to me again, please.
I didn't single out Apple as they aren't a carrier. Its ALL telco data.

Sure Apple or RIM's noc are another point at which data security can and probably is compromised but regardless the federal government is already invading your privacy and ignoring the Constitution.
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,848
0
Orange County, CA
I didn't single out Apple as they aren't a carrier. Its ALL telco data.

Sure Apple or RIM's noc are another point at which data security can and probably is compromised but regardless the federal government is already invading your privacy and ignoring the Constitution.
Sorry, that wasn't a reply to you.

oiswego is saying that every single packet of data, voice, and mms go through Apple's servers. I just can't seem to find anything online that makes that assertion.

And, like we've both pointed out, worrying about your bits after AT&T has their hands on them is a classic case of locking the barn door after the horse has escaped.
 

oiswego

Monkey
Oct 24, 2005
128
0
New Yawk
since there is no "proof" of voice data and sms going to apple (only data packets. there is no native mms for iphone)....i'll offer this conjecture: why would apple tie itself to a single carrier in the united states when it could make far money by having it's phone available on all the networks? apple knows it has a product that will sell, i bet the carrier that has the "privilege" of having iphone had to concede a lot of ground to make the deal. i wonder what that deal really entailed, now it's been discovered that at&t has already given nsa access to their voice network traffic........
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,848
0
Orange County, CA
I meant sms, sorry.

So, basically, you have no proof at all. Just conjecture.

Do you realize you're worried about the ghost in the attic when there is an armed robber prowling around your living room?
 

Transcend

My Nuts Are Flat
Apr 18, 2002
18,045
0
Towing the party line.
If you think every packet goes through apple controlled servers, you are mental.

Apple deals with certain providers because to provide visual voice mail, one of their "killer apps", the carrier has to install new voice mail systems developed by apple. That, and apple gets a huge kick back from every account. ie: ongoing income.
 

oiswego

Monkey
Oct 24, 2005
128
0
New Yawk
installing new voice mail systems?? that's a ridiculous statement at best. the most they would have to do is install new software for the voicemail to interface with the storage. i doubt voicemail would need to be entirely reconfigured to comply with apple's wishes.

a more likely conclusion regarding apple's aggreement with at&t---at&t made certain concessions to apple in order for the "privilege" of being able to carry the phone that most jerks will need to have because it's cool. in the first agreement, at&t paid apple $18 per phone per month. which is why they required the data plan to reoup the costs.
in the new model:
"The new agreement between Apple and AT&T eliminates the revenue-sharing model under which AT&T shared a portion of monthly service revenue with Apple. Under the revised agreement, which is consistent with traditional equipment manufacturer-carrier arrangements, there is no revenue sharing and both iPhone 3G models will be offered at attractive prices to broaden the market potential and accelerate subscriber volumes."

no payment going from at&t to apple....so what is keeping apple from providing the phone to other carriers?? that's what is not being said, and that's where apple is being nefarious.....

and since apple created the iphone as a closed system ( in contrast to symbian which encourages open development ), controls all the registered apps and now has an application store that they have sole control over......it's entirely naive to believe they aren't getting your packets. in fact, for each network query you do at the very least one packet is being sent to apple that is obvious. presumably this could just be an identifier for the application and the user. or it could also be a binary attachment to rsync any updated data on the phone since apple last got their update.

any way you cut it---apple is getting your packets, and it's alarming that people are assuming it's ok. the last time the population trusted companies and the government on a large scale...how did that work out? not so good actually. these are entities that care not for how the customer is treated, but for what kind of revenue the customer can provide.

especially in the case of iphone...they're not so concerned with making a profit on the actual phone itself (which is why they are so much cheaper than other smartphones). it's the profit they can generate afterwards that is the real motivation to sell these items. particulary when you are required to have a data plan with legal use of this phone. i'd be very interested to see the strace of some of these apps, and more interested in the packet output.

since your argument boils down to "there's no proof they are doing anything obviously bad", which is stupid--let me clear things up for you: there already is evidence of what i've pointed out of how apple is clelarly getting some of your network traffic. whether or not this data is important....only apple and at&t know for certain, and they're not saying anything about it which is actually very telling.

but in the end, they also know that most of the population has simply come to accept being spied on, and that their personal data and personal lives are no longer personal anymore...and that's fine, but you can't claim that these companies care about your personal data, they simply care about using you to generate a larger profit by any means necessary. and the argument that it's insane to believe they wouldn't try to get this data from you is entirely ill-conceived. you cannot trust any company anymore--but you must be willing to trade certain privacy rights in order to remain current with technology.

the simplest case of this is with google---before they went public, they literally had no way to generate any revenue other than handouts. now, they have the ability to target advertisement based on your specific user profile and what you've searched for in the past provides a strong picture of what you may be interested in buying from their partners. it's my opinion that apple will not be too far off from this scenario....since it's proved to be extremely profitable for google.

this is all i have to say about this issue----it's perfectly clear that there are still people willing to believe that companies and governments still have your best interest in mind. but sadly, that's not the case when there is so much money to be had using questionable yet legal tactics.

and another point about personal data security---you aren't required to provide your ssn to anyone other than the government, your bank and your employer. everyone else asks for it because they want it...but they don't need it and will make using/getting their services more difficult for withholding this info.
 

Transcend

My Nuts Are Flat
Apr 18, 2002
18,045
0
Towing the party line.
Please take your tinfoil hat elsewhere. Nothing is going through apple servers at this time. Everything goes through servers at your carrier. Messaging and background services will go through apple ancillary servers in September as you cannot run BG apps on the Iphone at this time.

Glad you have no idea how visual voice mail works yet are arguing about it. It is about as far from traditional voice mail systems as you can get and does indeed require all new systems. Digitizing and pushing the voicemail to the phone to be stored there as an audio file, not at the carrier. You do not dial a carrier to access your VM.
 
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Total Heckler

Beer and Bike Enthusiast
Apr 28, 2005
8,083
18
Santa Cruz, CA
Got my new one this morning and less than an hour later I had my old one sold/re-installed 1.1.4/jailbroken/unlocked. Haha I also sold the old iPhone for as much as I paid for the new one. $220. Booyeah.

oiswego, you need a custom title saying Super Tinfoil Hat Man or STHM. Also a avatar change. KTHX
 

oiswego

Monkey
Oct 24, 2005
128
0
New Yawk
the only hat i wear now is a white hat

and since i work with crypto/security matters daily....i guess i'm just acutely aware of what the dangers and risks are. i also like my privacy, and i do whatever i need to in order to keep it. i don't like that random companies are working together, compiling all the info they have about me for whatever reason.....could be nefarious, could also be harmless. but the risk is still there and the less they know the better.

case in point....i've had security background check companies call me up in order to glean info about me for a hiring entity because they couldn't come up with what they were asked for.


all part of my master to simply disappear at some point down the road...maybe someday you will see my picture on some mountain with my bike!