[Toshi]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/printFriendly/0,,1-196-1619264,00.html

The creationists’ fondness for “gaps” in the fossil record is a metaphor for their love of gaps in knowledge generally. Gaps, by default, are filled by God. You don’t know how the nerve impulse works? Good! You don’t understand how memories are laid down in the brain? Excellent! Is photosynthesis a bafflingly complex process? Wonderful! Please don’t go to work on the problem, just give up, and appeal to God. Dear scientist, don’t work on your mysteries. Bring us your mysteries for we can use them. Don’t squander precious ignorance by researching it away. Ignorance is God’s gift to Kansas.

read the article. it is short. it doesn't contain overly long words.

 

[punkassean]

Nice link, good reading. I am in the middle of "The Moral Animal" a book I'm sure you've read Toshi.

 

[Toshi]

Nice link, good reading. I am in the middle of "The Moral Animal" a book I'm sure you've read Toshi.

nope, haven't read that one. who is it by? should i read it?

 

[Ridemonkey]

When things are tough, I prefer to turn to alcohol.

 

[punkassean]

It's written by Robert Wright and it is about evolutionary psychology. I just started (~50 pages in) but so far it's great. It picks up nicely where I left off with my last read, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. I can't believe it took me so long to read that one. What a great book!

 

[punkassean]

When things are tough, I prefer to turn to alcohol.

They don't call it Jesus Juice for nothin'. Plus look at the example set by Jesus hisself, he was at a party that run dry o' booze so he up and turnt water into wine so's they could get drunk. I'd of r-u-n-n-o-f-t myself but that's just me.

 

[Ridemonkey]

So God is an anology for beer? I think I'm seeing the light!

Edit: Hallewjaw Jesus!

 

[punkassean]

^ aim-in my brotha!

Toshi- the ISBN is 0-679-76399-6 if you're interested.

 

[Silver]

They don't call it Jesus Juice for nothin'. Plus look at the example set by Jesus hisself, he was at a party that run dry o' booze so he up and turnt water into wine so's they could get drunk. I'd of r-u-n-n-o-f-t myself but that's just me.

I think Bill Hicks has a routine about that:

"Uh Jesus, I've got this oregano..."

 

[Toshi]

^ aim-in my brotha!

Toshi- the ISBN is 0-679-76399-6 if you're interested.

thanks, it's on the list.

 

[punkassean]

I think Bill Hicks has a routine about that:

"Uh Jesus, I've got this oregano..."

HAHAHAH nice!

 

[Changleen]

Awesome article.

 

[blue]

Yeah, here a moron (okay, well...they're almost all corrupt morons) in our state legislature is attempting to pass a bill that will force creationism, known by its oxymoron twin "intelligent design", on Utah public schools.

What the ultra-right (In Utah, the hardcore Mormons) fails to realize is that the LDS (Mormon) Church has come out and said that Darwinian Evolution may possibly have been a tool in God's creation of the Earth and Man.

Who said Jeebus couldn't use natural methods to create man?

That is one of the main reasons I dislike most mainstream creationist faiths....

 

[Silver]

Who said Jeebus couldn't use natural methods to create man?

It's the whole slipperly slope thing. You start telling kids that, and they might realize that the whole thing still can work without Jesus/Allah/Moroni/Thor and then before you know it you have a whole state full of devil worshipping rapists.

 

[punkassean]

Even evolution can't explain how the original form of the being came to exist, it only explains how it has evolved to it's current state. The whole argument is pointless really. Obviously there is more going on than any man is aware of so why try to pretend we know definitively the answers???

 

[Changleen]

It's the whole slipperly slope thing. You start telling kids that, and they might realize that the whole thing still can work without Jesus/Allah/Moroni/Thor and then before you know it you have a whole state full of devil worshipping rapists.

Like us.

 

[fluff]

Yeah, here a moron (okay, well...they're almost all corrupt morons) in our state legislature is attempting to pass a bill that will force creationism, known by its oxymoron twin "intelligent design", on Utah public schools.

Does oxymoron mean something different in Utah?

 

[Andyman_1970]

Who said Jeebus couldn't use natural methods to create man?

I won't comment on the state of Mormonism - but the idea that God set into motion evolution or some similar event is knowns in Theology realms as Thesitic Evolution.

 

[MikeD]

I won't comment on the state of Mormonism - but the idea that God set into motion evolution or some similar event is knowns in Theology realms as Thesitic Evolution.

And it harkens back to the original Platonic proof of god...the "unmoved mover."

What I don't get is how people can come up with a political and religious (?) justification for their worldview and somehow manage to push it as "science." "Science" is a class for teaching, well, science! Science uses certain methods to come to its conclusions, and science class should teach the history of scientific worldviews and the current scientific worldview along with the support/justification for those ideas, and potential problems with it (the fairly nebulous origin of life in the theory is one of those problems!!).

Teaching something that's NOT supported by scientific thinking isn't science, it's anti-scientific. Fine, if you think science is a crock, just use a fundamentalist Christian [ed: that's not to say a universal Christian thing , just trying to encapsulate this particular ignorance, claiming a base in Christianity, that's about these days] worldview and preach hell and brimstone on the heretics and heathens...but the attempt to subvert scientific thinking and education by appropriating its methods to push an un-scientific agenda...how the **** can you get away with doing that??

Do these people honestly think they're doing their kids and society a favor by pushing loose pseudo-science on kids as if it's widely accepted outside their head-in-the-sand communties whose beliefs are so fragile that they fear anyone to speak contrary to their views??

Edit: Sorry, I guess I'm preaching to the choir here... Should've spent my day's Political Forum effort writing something that we'll actually argue about.

MD

 

[llkoolkeg]

I look at the whole debate as akin to Sisyphus rolling his stone. The arguments for each viewpoint are with time getting slightly more sophisticated(dare I say evolved), but other than for killing time at a cocktail party, they are pointless because neither will be proved or disproved(most likely) in our lifetimes. I look at ID as simply a more sophisticated rebuttal or backlash against the unyielding assault against religion(or at least Christian religion) perpetrated by ego-masturbating intellectuals who are so immodest as to believe that we'll one day have the universe quantified, life reduced to a formula and the concept of God erased by mathematical proof. I think godless scientists and doctors are great, though. Their tireless efforts to distill understanding from mystery have certainly helped to advance human knowledge regardless of the misguided motives or faulty belief system that spawned them. That's why I go to Doc Baker for a broken leg and Rev. Alden for a broken spirit.

 

[clancy98]

That's why I go to Doc Baker for a broken leg and Rev. Alden for a broken spirit.

A-men!

IMO, (which I know you're all not interested in) Science is just what happens when we finally explain things we never understood and thereby labeled as religion. Like Zeus.

BUT, I think for the human aspect (certain) people need spirituality. That being said, teach science at school and religion at home if you must.

I do wonder how is a parent (or a teacher) supposed to explain the discrepancies when they arise, without invalidating the teacher or the parent?

 

[narlus]

I think Bill Hicks has a routine about that:

"Uh Jesus, I've got this oregano..."

that was david cross (using sage instead of oregano), unless he swiped bill's bit.

 

[narlus]

look at ID as simply a more sophisticated rebuttal

what is so sophisticated about it?

 

[Silver]

that was david cross (using sage instead of oregano), unless he swiped bill's bit.

Whoops, sorry about that.

 

[Silver]

Do these people honestly think they're doing their kids and society a favor by pushing loose pseudo-science on kids as if it's widely accepted outside their head-in-the-sand communties whose beliefs are so fragile that they fear anyone to speak contrary to their views??

Yes, most of them honestly do. It also speaks to the amazing persecution complex that Christians have in this country. Look at llkoolkeg's post right under yours.

 

[MikeD]

Yes, most of them honestly do. It also speaks to the amazing persecution complex that Christians have in this country. Look at llkoolkeg's post right under yours.

Yeah, but I don't think my point was clear, actually...what worries me isn't the teaching of a religious worldview to kids...it's the crossing of genre lines.

If I went and taught in a physics class how the theory of a closed big bang universe which expands and contracts back to a singuarity is, in fact, true, and results from the Breaths of Brahma which define the ages of the universe, I'd face objections from both scientists and Christians and scientists who are Christian and Christian Scientists, even. Hell, most Hindu scientists, I think, would object and think I was a crackpot for mixing my subjects like this.

But it's OK with Christianity, because, well, ummm...

MD

 

[llkoolkeg]

what is so sophisticated about it?

It exceeds the oft-used "do as I say, not as I do" and "God works in mysterious ways", right?

 

[Andyman_1970]

but other than for killing time at a cocktail party, they are pointless because neither will be proved or disproved(most likely) in our lifetimes.

Once again well said LL..........

Although I'm a Creationist, I stay away from discussions such as these as I see them as pointless. The interesting thing I discovered is that not only Jesus but the rabbi's as well don't spend a whole lot of time on the matter - so as a disciple of said Jesus I too choose not to spend a whole lot of time on the matter.......

 

[Andyman_1970]

It exceeds the oft-used "do as I say, not as I do" and "God works in mysterious ways", right?

Mystery, something that was culturally destroyed with the advent of modern era thinking..............

 

[llkoolkeg]

Do these people honestly think they're doing their kids and society a favor by pushing loose pseudo-science on kids as if it's widely accepted outside their head-in-the-sand communties whose beliefs are so fragile that they fear anyone to speak contrary to their views??

Yes, most of them honestly do. It also speaks to the amazing persecution complex that Christians have in this country. Look at llkoolkeg's post right under yours.

What exactly are you trying to suggest, Silver? That I "push loose pseudo-science on kids", that I am part of a "head-in-the-sand community whose beliefs are so fragile that they fear anyone to speak contrary to their views" or that I as a Christian have a persecution complex? If it is, as I suspect, the latter, I would point out that atheists seem much more brave about confronting Christian dragons than those who might otherwise point the finger of racism at them. I suspect atheists dislike all religions, but Christians happen to be the "safest" target in a world dominated by Western sensibilities.

 

[MikeD]

Once again well said LL..........

Although I'm a Creationist, I stay away from discussions such as these as I see them as pointless.

The debate between creationism (in whatever form) and evolution might well be pointless, but the debate over what to teach in school science courses most certainly isn't...

"Live and let live" is usually my philosophy with others' beliefs, but in this case, there's a subversion of the public education system in the country to push a specific religious group's agenda. This violates the separation of church and state, for one, and weakens the country as a whole by producing people ill-adjusted to understand the modern world. Whether you subscribe to the theory of evolution as an individual is your business; what's presented to kids in public schools is everyone's. And although Kansas is far away from me, I don't want America to get any stupider and weaker and less competitive in the world stage than it already is.

Now, I suppose you could say that my view is defensive, and that if I was so sure evolution was true, I'd not object to alternative theories being taught.

But you'd be misunderstanding my point. I'm not touting evolution as truth, but as the only prevalent *scientific* theory as to how life as we know it has come about. If there were other valid scientific theories, they should be taught in science class as well. I don't care if a creationist explains his views to my (theoretical) kids, or if they're taught the creationist Christian view in a religion class. That's fine and I want them to understand other views thoroughly and weigh them in their own minds. But I don't want it taught to them in science class as if it's mainstream, accepted scientific theory. And I want them to understand the difference between theories, scientific laws, and facts, and the shortcomings of science, philosophy, and religion, respectively and collectively.

MD

 

[MikeD]

Mystery, something that was culturally destroyed with the advent of modern era thinking..............

And something even a lot of "Christians" don't want to accept...witness the pseudo-science with which they try and defend their views.

MD

 

[Silver]

What exactly are you trying to suggest, Silver? That I "push loose pseudo-science on kids", that I am part of a "head-in-the-sand community whose beliefs are so fragile that they fear anyone to speak contrary to their views" or that I as a Christian have a persecution complex? If it is, as I suspect, the latter, I would point out that atheists seem much more brave about confronting Christian dragons than those who might otherwise point the finger of racism at them. I suspect atheists dislike all religions, but Christians happen to be the "safest" target in a world dominated by Western sensibilities.

If you support the ID movement, yes to question 1.

From your comments in this thread, yes to question 2.

For what it's worth, I think all religions are as pointless as any other. However, the fact that I'm not railing against Muslims in this thread is because they aren't at the vanguard of a movement in the country I live in trying to teach myth in science class.

 

[Andyman_1970]

And something even a lot of "Christians" don't want to accept...witness the pseudo-science with which they try and defend their views.

MD

Agreed, as most evangelical Christianity (which I'm most familiar with) has it's ideological roots deep in modern era thinking. It's amazing how often my students get aggravated with me when they ask me a question like "if God knows and is in control of everything how can we have free will" or "explain the Trinity" my answer is always "it's a mystery" - IMO the culture of "must have all the answers" at least with regards to Christianity today, is killing off the wonder and awe people have for their Creator.

 

[MMike]

**mutter mutter ** Stupid Creator.......

 

[fluff]

If it's a mystery how do we know anything about it?

 

[Andyman_1970]

The debate between creationism (in whatever form) and evolution might well be pointless, but the debate over what to teach in school science courses most certainly isn't...

I would argue that a greater role of the parent in their childs education is in order if one wants to bring up a child with a particular worldview. The idea that the school (or even the church for that matter) is solely responsible for shaping a child's worldview and understanding the role of science with regards to this matter is a mistake - the parents should have an active role in the education both in science and spiritual matters of their children.

 

[MikeD]

If it's a mystery how do we know anything about it?

Now you're applying a scientific way of thinking to a more mystical tradition...just isn't going to work, except to make some scientists disdainful of religion and vice-versa.

Andy, I do totally agree with you...parents should be shaping the worldview, and the schools should be providing useful tools and knowledge for the kids, not belief systems (although in a Derridian sense, that's unavoidable...).

MD

 

[Andyman_1970]

Andy, I do totally agree with you...

Holy cow................does this mean I'm resonable?

 

[SprungShoulders]

I won't comment on the state of Mormonism...

In reference to the "One True Faith" ( ), your should always capitalize the "s", i.e. State.

.....And it's a good thing indeed that we have such great mountain biking out here, otherwise - aside from the National Parks - this state wouldn't have much to contribute to the world community. Fry Sauce notwithstanding. :evil: