[DirtMcGirk]

I'm sorry those kids are dead Worship Mud. The world is an ugly place, getting worse every day.

Doesn't change my view on assault weapons, semi-automatic weapons, or anything else that's being painted as the second coming of Hitler these days.

I own them. Even if they ban the manufacture of new ones, mine will still be grandfathered in. They will always be out there. I can assure you that even Obama will not push for a full on gun grab. Too much like the Turner Diaries and then you really will have every whack job out taking heads. Obama is too smart for that.

 

[Udi]

Slow down the ability for people to acquire weapons.

But with the one gun a month scheme, what am I going to say to my little nephews at christmas when I can only buy a gun for one of them?

 

[DaveW]

I'm sorry those kids are dead Worship Mud. The world is an ugly place, getting worse every day.

Paranoid delusions and easy access to weapons are certainly helping with that.

And just for sh*ts and giggles as you seem to follow the amendments as holy writ, can you give us your definitions of or describe the differences between;
"A well regulated militia" and "A well armed militant"

Or even what the "well regulated" part means in regards to gun laws?

 

[DirtMcGirk]

I'm going to stick with the Heller definitions.

The court then held that the Second Amendment "protects an individual right to keep and bear arms", saying that the right was "premised on the private use of arms for activities such as hunting and self-defense, the latter being understood as resistance to either private lawlessness or the depredations of a tyrannical government (or a threat from abroad)." They also noted that though the right to bear arms also helped preserve the citizen militia, "the activities [the Amendment] protects are not limited to militia service, nor is an individual's enjoyment of the right contingent upon his or her continued or intermittent enrollment in the militia."

 

[www.amazon.com]

"People that don't own guns blame the gun. He could have Just as easily driven a car into a crowded mall during Christmas and killed as many people, we won't ban cars or blame cars."

We blame the driver, but when it's guns we dont blame the shooter we blame the guns.


Who gets the blame here? The hatchet or the person? I think I know who it is..
http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-19674624

Edit: let's assume someone on the campus was armed. http://radio.woai.com/cc-common/mainheadlines3.html?feed=119078&article=10644119

 

[syadasti]

There's no way I am trusting anything that comes out of Harvard. Sorry.

Which is exactly why that is a collection of metastudies across the entire field, you don't have to trust a single study from Harvard - that's the general consensus based on all available peer reviewed evidence.

Reaction is a bad way to run a country. Knee jerk reactions are an even worse policy.

Which is why after 30 years change is finally on the horizon. Illegal guns are not the source of these tragedies so the laws must change for all owners:

“Since 1982, there have been at least 61 mass murders carried out with firearms across the country, with the killings unfolding in 30 states from Massachusetts to Hawaii,”

I'm sorry those kids are dead Worship Mud. The world is an ugly place, getting worse every day.

Wrong, violent crime in the the US is at its lowest point in half a century. Gun ownership is declining - more guns don't make you safer as the US clearly demonstrates in comparison to other OECD nations in the world.

 

[conor]

No idea why it says west germany though haha.

Anyway it seems to me that it's gone beyond the guns themselves with most pro gun americans, it's that they don't want the right to be taken away from them. The reason why it will probably never change is not because of the idiot rednecks that want to bear arms, it's because of seemingly intelligent people like Dirt McGirk that don't see how the American gun culture is just wrong on so many levels, and causes so many tragedies.

 

[worship_mud]

Cerberus Capital Management, owner of Bushmaster and other weapons manufacturers united under the Freedom Group, sells it's shares in aforementioned Freedom Group.

 

[Sandwich]

I'm going to stick with the Heller definitions.

That definition says nothing for collecting guns as a hobby. So can we infer from that definition that people should ONLY be allowed guns for self defense and protection form a tyrannical government or hunting? In that case, one weapon per person should be sufficient, and it may only be bolt action, pump action, or low capacity, as that's all you need to hunt with and one person with one gun should be able to fend off one attacker with his weapon?

And what capacity do we attribute to personal arsenals in order to fend off the government? Do we give people attack dogs, warheads, biological weapons, tanks, and freeze dried food? What reasonable expectation can we grant citizens to defend themselves from a near limitless government force? I think that notion is outdated, sadly, as 200 years ago we had a lot more horses and bayonets, if you get my drift.

I'd like to point out that I personally am not in favor of a limit on how many guns you own, or your ability to own guns, but I think you need to see that there are two sides of this coin. People fight in wars for a lot of things they believe in, but the country changes as time goes by.

 

[OGRipper]

Dirk, your argument boils down to blind faith in the law and the fact that you like guns. You can regurgitate a bunch of NRA/Nugent nonsense and cite the Supreme Court all you want, but that is all you have said. And history has shown the perils of blind faith.

It's true you don't need to justify yourself to anyone here. But you seem to care what we think. And when pressed for a real justification the best you can do is reference a nutjob who hates mountain bikes? Really?

 

[SlapheadMofo]

sometimes dumping an entire magazine into a hillside is just what does it for me.

And there is the single honest reason anyone has 'overpowered' weapons.
It's time to strike a more reasonable balance between public safety and your desire to make a bunch of noise and feel tough.

 

[Jim Mac]

I found this article interesting:
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/12/16/the-freedom-of-an-armed-society/?src=me&ref=general

Essentially, the belief that an armed society is a civil society (NRA claim) is false because carrying a weapon inserts a sense of hierarchy. Therefore, we act less civil as we are "compelled" to be nice to the person holding the gun. The author states that this in end makes us less free.

 

[mattmatt86]

And there is the single honest reason anyone has 'overpowered' weapons.
It's time to strike a more reasonable balance between public safety and your desire to make a bunch of noise and feel tough.

And where does it end? What if in a year dumping a magazine into a hillside doesn't do it for you anymore? Then you go get a rocket launcher and dump it into a hillside? Then after that you have your own personal drone and blow up sh!t with from your lay-z boy? America needs a huge reality check in more way than one, but our love affair with guns and violence is a good place to start.

 

[mattmatt86]

I found this article interesting:
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/12/16/the-freedom-of-an-armed-society/?src=me&ref=general

Essentially, the belief that an armed society is a civil society (NRA claim) is false because carrying a weapon inserts a sense of hierarchy. Therefore, we act less civil as we are "compelled" to be nice to the person holding the gun. The author states that this in end makes us less free.

But but but! If we arm everyone then we'll all be equal right?

 

[Jim Mac]

But but but! If we arm everyone then we'll all be equal right?

Equally scared of each other = not moar free

 

[mantispf2000]

So I haven't weighed in, but have read this thread and lots of other reports about this whole dreadful situation. I'm a mother of 2 (6 going on 7 year old and nearly 7month old) girls. I also teach PreK-2nd grade and HS. I went to school today, not dreading or worrying about "what if" but to see my students, to smile at them and to make sure they knew that I would be there for them. I think of them as extensions of my own family so today, in my K, 1, 2 classes we sat together, criss-cross applesauce on the rug and shared a Christmas sing-along and began moving on. Many of the students had questions but ultimately, they wanted to feel safe and loved and I can safely say that I am more sore from sitting, draped in children for 2 hours today than I am from my last mountain bike ride, but I wouldn't change it for the world.

So, now I hug my kids a little longer and really make sure that I hold their faces, kiss them on both cheeks and tell them I love them as often as I can. My heart aches for the families that no long have their children to hold and they will be in my thoughts and prayers for quite some time to come.

Thanks, TS, for replying this way. When this thread started out, it was showing boatloads of support for the school, kids, and community. Now that it's morphed into a 2nd Amendment/gun control/cars-guns/rights-priveledge/apples-oranges debate, I feel it's taken away from the suffering the parents are now facing, and the counselling the kids will need. Did anyone read about the 6yo girl that survived, being in the room that was being shot up, by playing 'possum? How does a 6yo know/learn that? Or the grandfather that came home to find 6 of the kids sitting in his driveway, saying they can't go back to school because their teacher is dead? So he takes them in, calls their parents, and takes care of them until parents show up?

I'm not saying don't discuss gun control and all, just saying take that part of it to the political forum, ok???

And if you do have kids, hug them closer and tighter and tell them you love them more......

 

[SloMoJo]

Well said ..
I was talking about this with my mother last night. She said 'Did you know that they brought the injured kids to the same hospital you were born in? Danbury Hospital". Wow. But yea ..this one does help us think about the important people to us.

 

[Andyman_1970]

So, now I hug my kids a little longer and really make sure that I hold their faces, kiss them on both cheeks and tell them I love them as often as I can. My heart aches for the families that no long have their children to hold and they will be in my thoughts and prayers for quite some time to come.

Exactly.......

 

[Jim Mac]

I have fallen into this too, but it is much easier to talk about abstract "rights" than the concrete pain and loss that those people are feeling right now.

 

[DirtMcGirk]

I suppose my reaction to most of you goes like this. What with our 24 hour news cycle, the holidays, and the rapid rate at which society mutates every day, I suspect most of the loud voices fall into this category:

It'll be a major issue, for about a week.

 

[CrabJoe StretchPants]

I haven't watched anything on the news on this other than what I overheard, and I really have nothing to contribute to this thread that hasn't been said already, and I refuse to get into another gun debate as I really have no feelings on the issue. But the one quote I overheard from this incident that has been haunting me over and over is a 5 or 6 year old survivor saying "I'm ok mommy, but all my friends are dead".


That powerful 9 word sentence puts everything into perspective to me.

 

[syadasti]

And there is the single honest reason anyone has 'overpowered' weapons.
It's time to strike a more reasonable balance between public safety and your desire to make a bunch of noise and feel tough.

And there is no valid reason to let hunters or target shooters pollute the environment. Lead must be banned as it was for the rest of us. The 2nd amendment doesn't guaranteed anyone the right to pollute.

http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/campaigns/get_the_lead_out/index.html

Lead is an extremely toxic element that we’ve sensibly removed from water pipes, gasoline, paint and other sources dangerous to people. Yet toxic lead is still entering the food chain through widespread use of lead hunting ammunition and fishing tackle, poisoning wildlife and even threatening human health. At least 75 wild bird species in the United States are poisoned by spent lead ammunition, including bald eagles, golden eagles, ravens and endangered California condors. Millions of cranes, ducks, swans, loons, geese and other waterfowl ingest spent lead shot or lead fishing sinkers lost in lakes and rivers each year, often with deadly consequences.

To address the problem, the Center’s Get the Lead Out campaign has organized more than 265 groups calling on the Environmental Protection Agency to regulate toxic lead in hunting ammunition. The coalition includes groups from 40 states representing conservationists, birders, hunters, anglers, scientists, veterinarians, American Indians and public employees. In June 2012, the Center and six other groups filed suit against the agency for refusing to address the problem of toxic lead in hunting ammunition that frequently poisons and kills our wildlife.

 

[DirtMcGirk]

I use the "green range" stuff which is lead free for just that reason. It costs a little more, but some of the places I've shot over the years were so polluted that it was offensive to me as a bike rider. Same thing with my pistol and shotgun ammo.

 

[mantispf2000]

But the one quote I overheard from this incident that has been haunting me over and over is a 5 or 6 year old survivor saying "I'm ok mommy, but all my friends are dead".


That powerful 9 word sentence puts everything into perspective to me.

thumbsup, thumbsup, thumbsup, etcetcetc......

 

[C.P.]

Assault Weapons Ban under way...

 

[DirtMcGirk]

CP, they're just preparing to introduce the bill. I still bet donuts and dollars it won't pass.

 

[thad]

Yeah, we'll see. Considering the Bushmaster used in this killing, was banned in the 1994 ban, that GWB let expire in 2004, and the mother purchased legally..... we'll see.

Public opinion has turned. Please keep yelling about how hunting rifles and assault weapons are the same thing And how you have a right to own machine guns. Keep it up. Republicans have used a coalition of kooks get their power for years : the bigots, the fundamentalists, the gun nuts. After Obama's resounding victory, I think people have realized the demographics have changed. GOP is in the woods. Hopefully a more reasonable party can emerge from their ashes. But in the meantime, it should give the dems a fighting chance to clean up their mess.

And yes, I'm fully aware the house is R majority. Did you see a SINGLE republican congressman defending gun rights recently? Unless you have a bat**** crazy constituency, this issue is political suicide right now.

 

[maddog17]

Agreed. I just saw two teenage girls being interviewed saying while this was sad, guns don't kill people, people kill people. Brainwashed

so if this guy went in with a knife then it's ok? people kill with weapons, be it a gun, knife, club, or bare hands. if someone wants to kill, they will use whatever they can to get the job done. so I'm not sure where your brainwashed comment comes into play here. I don't think we're insane here. what I see as the problem is a lack of responsibility and accountability. since the 90's when "being PC" became the norm, it's never anyones own fault, it's someone elses. a parent cant discipline their own kid without some stranger being offended by it and calling the cops claiming child abuse. too many friggin soft hearted people here now screwing crap up.

 

[www.amazon.com]

You should hear the logic that gets tossed around here. It's rarely stated directly but is usually something along the lines of god given right to firearms. Because god WANTS double digit IQ rednecks to have kids that accidentally shoot their siblings. Can't argue with god. It's not the government's place to give rights or take them away.......jesus wants us to have bullets that expand and break into thousands of pieces when they hit a bone. You know.......for hunting.

God just doesn't want australians to have those. Only us.

http://www.captainsjournal.com/2012/07/23/do-gun-bans-reduce-violent-crime-ask-the-aussies-and-brits/

Third paragrapgh down:

"Even Australia’s Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research acknowledges that the gun ban had no significant impact on the amount of gun-involved crime:

In 2006, assault rose 49.2 percent and robbery 6.2 percent.
Sexual assault — Australia’s equivalent term for rape — increased 29.9 percent.
Overall, Australia’s violent crime rate rose 42.2 percent."





So lets see..According to the CDC 430,000 people die everyear due to smoking/tobacco use.
According to MADD, in 2010 10,228 people were killed with another 350,000 being injured due to drunk drivers.
And form NationMaster there were a total of 9,369 gun related homicides in the US.

I dont see anyone pushing to ban smoking or alcohol.

 

[toodles]

http://www.captainsjournal.com/2012/07/23/do-gun-bans-reduce-violent-crime-ask-the-aussies-and-brits/

Third paragrapgh down:

"Even Australia’s Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research acknowledges that the gun ban had no significant impact on the amount of gun-involved crime:

In 2006, assault rose 49.2 percent and robbery 6.2 percent.
Sexual assault — Australia’s equivalent term for rape — increased 29.9 percent.
Overall, Australia’s violent crime rate rose 42.2 percent."

Utter bullsh!t. http://www.snopes.com/crime/statistics/ausguns.asp

Australias crime rate didn't change noticeably at all. Nationwide, the rate actually decreased. Victoria, the only state where gun-related homicide figures increased had a population of 4.5 million at the time. It had 7 firearm-related murders the year before the ban and 19 in 2006. It decreased again the next year.

 

[kidwoo]

See what I mean toodles?

We have to live here.

With idiots like this........everywhere.

You got a sister I can get 'commonwealth status' bizzayzay with?

 

[www.amazon.com]

I'm an idiot yeah ok. Good job...Care to elaborate?

 

[Damo]

People are correct saying that "guns don't kill people, people kill people". However, take away the advanced weaponry that is available and the number of deaths in each scenario will lessen.

You can't ban evil, but you can hinder the ability to cause massive damage in such a short amount of time.

 

[www.amazon.com]

People are correct saying that "guns don't kill people, people kill people". However, take away the advanced weaponry that is available and the number of deaths in each scenario will lessen.

You can't ban evil, but you can hinder the ability to cause massive damage in such a short amount of time.

T-Mac and the OKC bombing didn't need to use firearms. Lets say someone killed 27 people with a crossbow, would you still call for a ban on crossbows?

 

[AngryMetalsmith]

I'm an idiot yeah ok. Good job...Care to elaborate?

Lets say someone killed 27 people with a crossbow, would you still call for a ban on crossbows?

Come on dude, how long would it take for an archer to shoot 27 people with a crossbow ? Keep in mind they have to reload for every shot and the targets most likely will not stand still and patiently wait their turn to be skewered. You might want to get out a pencil and paper for this one. Math, crazy sh1t.

 

[www.amazon.com]

Come on dude, how long would it take for an archer to shoot 27 people with a crossbow ? Keep in mind they have to reload for every shot and the targets most likely will not stand still and patiently wait their turn to be skewered. You might want to get out a pencil and paper for this one. Math, crazy sh1t.

Come on bro. I dont know, I dont shoot crossbows. Yes I see elementry kids huddling up in a corner. What if the archer blocks to door?

 

[Damo]

T-Mac and the OKC bombing didn't need to use firearms. Lets say someone killed 27 people with a crossbow, would you still call for a ban on crossbows?

You actually call a mass murderer T-Mac?

That's fcked up.

 

[www.amazon.com]

You actually call a mass murderer T-Mac?

That's fcked up.

Timothy MacVeigh
better?

 

[Damo]

Yes. Why give a monster a nickname like he's a mate?

Anyway, move on.

 

[H8R]

T-Mac and the OKC bombing didn't need to use firearms. Lets say someone killed 27 people with a crossbow, would you still call for a ban on crossbows?

I would sign up to train with the dude that can shoot a crossbow that fast.

Also, I'd want a closer look at that crossbow.