Now that I have 20+ solid days of testing on my El Cuervo Im ready to write a complete review. In order to make this review as meaningful as possible Ive chosen to add it to an updated review of the Turner DHR and the Santa Cruz V10. The original review of the DHR and V10 is shown in standard text and the new Cuervo information is in bold text.
I had a chance to ride both a '03 V10 and a '04 DHR on the same Bootleg Canyon trails. The V10 was equipped with a Manitou Dorado fork and a Progressive 5th Element shock. The DHR was equipped with a Marzocchi Super T fork and a Romic RD shock. Other than those differences the bikes were completed with comparable DH race builds.
The same week I tested the V10 I also rode my El Cuervo, on the same Bootleg Canyon trails. The Cuervo was equipped with a Marzocchi Super T fork and I tested with both a Romic RD shock and a Swinger 6 way shock.
First off, a few comments on the differences between these two frames. The DHR utilizes a single pivot suspension and a very progressive shock linkage. The pivot placement on the DHR is fairly low, meaning that as the suspension compresses the rear wheel moves towards the frame and the wheelbase gets smaller. The head angle on the DHR is about 67 degrees and the bottom bracket height is around 14.5. The V10 utilizes a seemingly complex VPP suspension with a slightly falling rate shock linkage. Essentially, the V10 is a unique looking 4 bar suspension that initially moves the rear wheel away from the frame lengthening the wheelbase and then vertically the second half of the travel.
I definitely noticed the longer wheel base of the V10 (med. with 45.75" WB) compared to the Turner (med. with 45.0 WB). The V10 still felt good in the corners, but didn't have the balanced between the wheels feel that the Turner has. The Turner would change directions with just a look of the eyes. You look and you go. The V10 was a bit more stable, but you needed to give more input and plan your direction changes earlier. In longer rocky sections, on the V10, it seemed better to go straight over what you could rather than flow through with some direction changes, like the DHR is capable of.
The medium Cuervo has the same 45.0 wheel base, with the Super T fork, as the Turner, but about a 1 degree slacker head angle than the Turner. Like the Turner it is very easy to change directions on, but the slacker HA makes it a bit more stable at speed, down chutes and when pinging through rock gardens.
As for suspension the V10 has a reported 10" and the Turner 8.5", but they felt pretty similar to me. I guess its the extra 1" of sag the V10 runs that makes it feel more like a 9" bike than 10", but overall the V10 was a bit plusher than the DHR. However, I think I could have used a 50 lbs. softer spring on the DHR, where the V10 felt spot on for my weight.
The Cuervo has a deeper suspension feel than either the V10 or the DHR. Even though, the Cuervo only gets ½ more travel than the DHR and about 1 less than the V10 it still rides much smoother than either of these bikes. That deeper suspension feel results in a less jarring ride that lets you look farther down the trail and leaves you less fatigued at the end of a run. Again, I think a 50 lb. softer spring on the Turner would have been better for me. One thing that has surprised me about the Cuervo is that I have ridden it with a 350 lb., 400 lb., and 450 lb., spring on the Romic shock and liked it with all three. Obviously, there are differences in sag and ride height, but due to the progressive suspension I was able to ride all three spring rates quite well. In the end I prefer the 400 lb. for all around DH and my weight of 170 lbs.
One difference I did notice between the suspensions was pumping through whoops or over rock sections. The more active Romic shock carried more speed when pumping, where the V10 preferred to be pedaled. Some of this is the 5thE vs. the Romic and some is the suspension design differences (ie: wheel path). The DHRs rear wheel path accelerates the bike when pumping whoops or exiting corners. The V10s rear wheel path has a bit of the opposite effect and exaggerates its long wheel base.
Like the Turner, the shorter wheel base and active shock of the Cuervo allowed it to pump much better than the V10, but the stiffer suspension of the Turner made it even a bit better than the Cuervo when pumping smooth rollers. Increasing the Cuervos spring rate by 50 lbs. would allow it to pump nearly as efficiently as the DHR, however, the plusher suspension of the Cuervo out shined both of the other bikes when pumping through rock gardens.
Pedaling was the area that surprised me the most. I thought the V10 would pedal very well and it did, but the Turner pedaled just as well. Again, some of this could have been the slightly stiffer spring on the Turner. Either way both bikes pedaled so well I couldn't ask for more from a DH bike.
The V10 and the DHR sprinted better than any DH bike I have ridden to date. The Cuervo as was a good sprinter, but just a bit behind the other two bikes. Considering how plush the suspension was, the pedaling abilities are quite acceptable and with a stiffer spring would rival the other two bikes.
The V10 was equipped with a floating brake, which I doubt it needs, but its braking performance was good. The DHR is a single pivot (no floating brake) that was fine for me even in the biggest braking bumps. If I really paid attention the V10 was a bit smoother in the braking bumps, but the floating brake caused the rear end to ride a bit higher when entering turns with the rear brake on. This is something I really dont like about neutral braking suspension designs. I prefer a bike that squats down a bit when entering corners or taming steep chutes.
When braking the Cuervo performed much like the DHR, as you would expect from two similar suspension designs, staying very level in the bumps giving the rider great control. In the biggest bumps the deeper suspension feel of the Cuervo kept it on the ground a bit better than the DHR, again spring rate differences probably play a role in this.
I can't say much about jumping either bike because I didn't actually hit any DJ style jumps, but did do a couple of 5' speed drops. Both bikes took the landing fine, but I preferred the rider compartment of the Turner when in the air.
I have had the chance to jump the Cuervo more than the other two bikes. Like all DH bikes you have to push into the face of BMX style rhythm jumps to keep the bike flying level. Otherwise, the Cuervo is very comfortable in the air and lands large drops exceptionally well.
As for build quality I prefer the Turner. It was stiffer, lighter and probably more reliable due to the less complex design.
Like all Ventana bikes the Cuervo is over the top in quality. There are more complex machined parts then I can count. The welds are the best in the business. There are 4 bearings in the main pivot and even all three of the linkage pivots have 4 bearings each. The massive tubing and gussets are more then most any rider will ever need, yet the frame weighs 10.9 lbs. with a Ti spring equipped Romic shock. All of these features add up to one very stiff chassis that should withstand years of DH abuse.
Overall I respected the V10 and would probably happy riding a small (shorter WB) version of that bike. If you race mostly wide open courses with some pedaling this bike would be hard to beat. The price is good and from what I have heard the reliability is above average for a DH bike. The suspension did a great job of leveling most anything in its path even though it didnt feel so deep. My only detractions for this bike are the slightly less stiff rear end, than the DHR, and the not quite centered between the wheel feel.
Overall I loved the Turner. I prefer bikes that are sharp in the corners, and that is what the Turner is all about. If flew straight over the rocks and in the air, had enough suspension for racing, pedaled great and was level on the brakes. This bike would really excel on tight twisty courses where you sprint from one corner to the next, yet was still quite stable at speed. The layout of the DHR is balanced between the wheels giving the rider confidence in most any situation. There is one draw back to such a sharp handling bike and that is the 67 degree head angle that is about 1 degree steeper than most DH bikes and can be a bit unsettling for a novice on steep terrain.
That's my take on those two bikes. Others will certainly feel differently and that's good. I always say there is no one perfect bike for every rider.
Yah thats right I loved the El Cuervo. As I said, I prefer a sharp handling bike that corners like its on rails; the Cuervo is very much that bike. It is not as sharp as the Turner, do to its 1 degree slacker head angle and plusher suspension, but makes up for it on rough terrain and descending steep chutes. The Cuervo also exudes balance between the wheels. There is no need to ride off the back of the bike or constantly weight the front wheel, just get centered and rip. Overall the Cuervo is very easy to ride, instilling confidence in novice riders and allowing pros to shave precious seconds off their race times. The one area the Cuervo fell behind these other two excellent bikes was pedaling. It was only noticeable on longer up hill sections and could be equalized with a couple clicks of compression damping or a slightly stiffer spring.
Well there you go. I had a blast riding all three of these bikes and hope you had some fun, and learned a bit, from reading my review.
Scott @ www.GO-RIDE.com
Hardcore products for real riders!
Addition: Since the time I wrote this review I have had a chance to test the Cuervo with a floating brake. Yes, the floating brake does have a slight improvement in braking smoothness. This is only noticeable in the most sever braking bumps. However, for myself I prefer the slight squatting of the rear suspension when braking without a floating brake. The slight squatting allows the bike to tackle steep chutes easier and enter corners with both ends level. If you not sure, I would recommend getting the free floating brake that Go-ride offers and judge for yourself.
Here's a pic of my El Cuervo being tested with a floating brake, Go-ride Lowrider 888 crowns and Go-ride 50mm 888 stem.
I had a chance to ride both a '03 V10 and a '04 DHR on the same Bootleg Canyon trails. The V10 was equipped with a Manitou Dorado fork and a Progressive 5th Element shock. The DHR was equipped with a Marzocchi Super T fork and a Romic RD shock. Other than those differences the bikes were completed with comparable DH race builds.
The same week I tested the V10 I also rode my El Cuervo, on the same Bootleg Canyon trails. The Cuervo was equipped with a Marzocchi Super T fork and I tested with both a Romic RD shock and a Swinger 6 way shock.
First off, a few comments on the differences between these two frames. The DHR utilizes a single pivot suspension and a very progressive shock linkage. The pivot placement on the DHR is fairly low, meaning that as the suspension compresses the rear wheel moves towards the frame and the wheelbase gets smaller. The head angle on the DHR is about 67 degrees and the bottom bracket height is around 14.5. The V10 utilizes a seemingly complex VPP suspension with a slightly falling rate shock linkage. Essentially, the V10 is a unique looking 4 bar suspension that initially moves the rear wheel away from the frame lengthening the wheelbase and then vertically the second half of the travel.
I definitely noticed the longer wheel base of the V10 (med. with 45.75" WB) compared to the Turner (med. with 45.0 WB). The V10 still felt good in the corners, but didn't have the balanced between the wheels feel that the Turner has. The Turner would change directions with just a look of the eyes. You look and you go. The V10 was a bit more stable, but you needed to give more input and plan your direction changes earlier. In longer rocky sections, on the V10, it seemed better to go straight over what you could rather than flow through with some direction changes, like the DHR is capable of.
The medium Cuervo has the same 45.0 wheel base, with the Super T fork, as the Turner, but about a 1 degree slacker head angle than the Turner. Like the Turner it is very easy to change directions on, but the slacker HA makes it a bit more stable at speed, down chutes and when pinging through rock gardens.
As for suspension the V10 has a reported 10" and the Turner 8.5", but they felt pretty similar to me. I guess its the extra 1" of sag the V10 runs that makes it feel more like a 9" bike than 10", but overall the V10 was a bit plusher than the DHR. However, I think I could have used a 50 lbs. softer spring on the DHR, where the V10 felt spot on for my weight.
The Cuervo has a deeper suspension feel than either the V10 or the DHR. Even though, the Cuervo only gets ½ more travel than the DHR and about 1 less than the V10 it still rides much smoother than either of these bikes. That deeper suspension feel results in a less jarring ride that lets you look farther down the trail and leaves you less fatigued at the end of a run. Again, I think a 50 lb. softer spring on the Turner would have been better for me. One thing that has surprised me about the Cuervo is that I have ridden it with a 350 lb., 400 lb., and 450 lb., spring on the Romic shock and liked it with all three. Obviously, there are differences in sag and ride height, but due to the progressive suspension I was able to ride all three spring rates quite well. In the end I prefer the 400 lb. for all around DH and my weight of 170 lbs.
One difference I did notice between the suspensions was pumping through whoops or over rock sections. The more active Romic shock carried more speed when pumping, where the V10 preferred to be pedaled. Some of this is the 5thE vs. the Romic and some is the suspension design differences (ie: wheel path). The DHRs rear wheel path accelerates the bike when pumping whoops or exiting corners. The V10s rear wheel path has a bit of the opposite effect and exaggerates its long wheel base.
Like the Turner, the shorter wheel base and active shock of the Cuervo allowed it to pump much better than the V10, but the stiffer suspension of the Turner made it even a bit better than the Cuervo when pumping smooth rollers. Increasing the Cuervos spring rate by 50 lbs. would allow it to pump nearly as efficiently as the DHR, however, the plusher suspension of the Cuervo out shined both of the other bikes when pumping through rock gardens.
Pedaling was the area that surprised me the most. I thought the V10 would pedal very well and it did, but the Turner pedaled just as well. Again, some of this could have been the slightly stiffer spring on the Turner. Either way both bikes pedaled so well I couldn't ask for more from a DH bike.
The V10 and the DHR sprinted better than any DH bike I have ridden to date. The Cuervo as was a good sprinter, but just a bit behind the other two bikes. Considering how plush the suspension was, the pedaling abilities are quite acceptable and with a stiffer spring would rival the other two bikes.
The V10 was equipped with a floating brake, which I doubt it needs, but its braking performance was good. The DHR is a single pivot (no floating brake) that was fine for me even in the biggest braking bumps. If I really paid attention the V10 was a bit smoother in the braking bumps, but the floating brake caused the rear end to ride a bit higher when entering turns with the rear brake on. This is something I really dont like about neutral braking suspension designs. I prefer a bike that squats down a bit when entering corners or taming steep chutes.
When braking the Cuervo performed much like the DHR, as you would expect from two similar suspension designs, staying very level in the bumps giving the rider great control. In the biggest bumps the deeper suspension feel of the Cuervo kept it on the ground a bit better than the DHR, again spring rate differences probably play a role in this.
I can't say much about jumping either bike because I didn't actually hit any DJ style jumps, but did do a couple of 5' speed drops. Both bikes took the landing fine, but I preferred the rider compartment of the Turner when in the air.
I have had the chance to jump the Cuervo more than the other two bikes. Like all DH bikes you have to push into the face of BMX style rhythm jumps to keep the bike flying level. Otherwise, the Cuervo is very comfortable in the air and lands large drops exceptionally well.
As for build quality I prefer the Turner. It was stiffer, lighter and probably more reliable due to the less complex design.
Like all Ventana bikes the Cuervo is over the top in quality. There are more complex machined parts then I can count. The welds are the best in the business. There are 4 bearings in the main pivot and even all three of the linkage pivots have 4 bearings each. The massive tubing and gussets are more then most any rider will ever need, yet the frame weighs 10.9 lbs. with a Ti spring equipped Romic shock. All of these features add up to one very stiff chassis that should withstand years of DH abuse.
Overall I respected the V10 and would probably happy riding a small (shorter WB) version of that bike. If you race mostly wide open courses with some pedaling this bike would be hard to beat. The price is good and from what I have heard the reliability is above average for a DH bike. The suspension did a great job of leveling most anything in its path even though it didnt feel so deep. My only detractions for this bike are the slightly less stiff rear end, than the DHR, and the not quite centered between the wheel feel.
Overall I loved the Turner. I prefer bikes that are sharp in the corners, and that is what the Turner is all about. If flew straight over the rocks and in the air, had enough suspension for racing, pedaled great and was level on the brakes. This bike would really excel on tight twisty courses where you sprint from one corner to the next, yet was still quite stable at speed. The layout of the DHR is balanced between the wheels giving the rider confidence in most any situation. There is one draw back to such a sharp handling bike and that is the 67 degree head angle that is about 1 degree steeper than most DH bikes and can be a bit unsettling for a novice on steep terrain.
That's my take on those two bikes. Others will certainly feel differently and that's good. I always say there is no one perfect bike for every rider.
Yah thats right I loved the El Cuervo. As I said, I prefer a sharp handling bike that corners like its on rails; the Cuervo is very much that bike. It is not as sharp as the Turner, do to its 1 degree slacker head angle and plusher suspension, but makes up for it on rough terrain and descending steep chutes. The Cuervo also exudes balance between the wheels. There is no need to ride off the back of the bike or constantly weight the front wheel, just get centered and rip. Overall the Cuervo is very easy to ride, instilling confidence in novice riders and allowing pros to shave precious seconds off their race times. The one area the Cuervo fell behind these other two excellent bikes was pedaling. It was only noticeable on longer up hill sections and could be equalized with a couple clicks of compression damping or a slightly stiffer spring.
Well there you go. I had a blast riding all three of these bikes and hope you had some fun, and learned a bit, from reading my review.
Scott @ www.GO-RIDE.com
Hardcore products for real riders!
Addition: Since the time I wrote this review I have had a chance to test the Cuervo with a floating brake. Yes, the floating brake does have a slight improvement in braking smoothness. This is only noticeable in the most sever braking bumps. However, for myself I prefer the slight squatting of the rear suspension when braking without a floating brake. The slight squatting allows the bike to tackle steep chutes easier and enter corners with both ends level. If you not sure, I would recommend getting the free floating brake that Go-ride offers and judge for yourself.
Here's a pic of my El Cuervo being tested with a floating brake, Go-ride Lowrider 888 crowns and Go-ride 50mm 888 stem.
