[JimmyTwoTimes]

 

[caputo1989]

Its called advil NyQuil and Sudaphed.

 

[stevew]

btw, have you and knuck formed a tin-foil hat operation in Worcester together?

I think Knuckleslammer is Tom Cruise.

 

[DRB]

I think Knuckleslammer is Tom Cruise.

It completely makes sense now.

 

[Toshi]

wow. i'm jumping in this one a bit late, since i had to go to witch doctor school all day long

anyway, there is little to no evidence that chiropractic helps. here's a study i came up with in 2 minutes of searching on "systematic reviews":

Efficacy of spinal manipulative therapy for low back pain of less than three months' duration.

School of Physiotherapy, University of Sydney, Australia.

OBJECTIVES: To review the efficacy of spinal manipulation for low back pain of less than 3 months duration.Data sources Randomized clinical trials on spinal manipulative therapy for low back pain were identified by searching EMBASE, CINAHL, MEDLINE, and the Physiotherapy Evidence Database (PEDro).Study selection Outcome measures of interest were pain, return to work, adverse events, disability, quality of life, and patient satisfaction with therapy.Data extraction Methodological assessment of the trials was performed using the PEDro scale. Trials were grouped according to the type of intervention, outcome measures, and follow-up time. Where there were multiple studies with sufficient homogeneity of interventions, subjects, and outcomes, the results were analyzed in a meta-analysis using a random effects model.Data synthesis Thirty-four papers (27 trials) met the inclusion criteria. Three small studies showed spinal manipulative therapy produces better outcomes than placebo therapy or no treatment for nonspecific low back pain of less than 3 months duration. The effects are, however, small. The findings of individual studies suggest that spinal manipulative therapy also seems to be more effective than massage and short wave therapy. It is not clear if spinal manipulative therapy is more effective than exercise, usual physiotherapy, or medical care in the first 4 weeks of treatment. CONCLUSIONS: Spinal manipulative therapy produces slightly better outcomes than placebo therapy, no treatment, massage, and short wave therapy for nonspecific low back pain of less than 3 months duration. Spinal manipulative therapy, exercise, usual physiotherapy, and medical care appear to produce similar outcomes in the first 4 weeks of treatment.

here's another:

Chiropractic spinal manipulation for neck pain: a systematic review.

Complementary Medicine, Peninsula Medical School, Universities of Exeter & Plymouth, Exeter, United Kingdom. Edzard.Ernst@pms.ac.uk

Chiropractic spinal manipulation (CSM) is often used as a treatment for neck pain. However, its effectiveness is unclear. The aim of this article was to evaluate systematically and critically the effectiveness of CSM for neck pain. Six electronic databases were searched for all relevant randomized clinical trials. Strict inclusion/exclusion criteria had been predefined. Key data were validated and extracted. Methodologic quality was assessed by using the Jadad score. Statistical pooling was anticipated but was deemed not feasible. Four studies met the inclusion/exclusion criteria. Two studies were on single interventions, and 2 included series of CSM treatments, both with a 12-month follow-up. The 2 short-term trials used spinal mobilization as a control intervention. The 2 long-term studies compared CSM with exercise therapy. None of the 4 trials convincingly demonstrated the superiority of CSM over control interventions. In conclusion, the notion that CSM is more effective than conventional exercise treatment in the treatment of neck pain was not supported by rigorous trial data.

so chiropractic works as well as exercise or PT for neck and back pain. that is, when the chiropractor doesn't screw up your neck:

Cervical artery dissection--clinical features, risk factors, therapy and outcome in 126 patients.

Dept. of Neurology, University Hospital of Munster, Albert-Schweitzer-Strasse 33, 48129 Munster, Germany. dziewas@uni-muenster.de

The highly variable clinical course of cervical artery dissections still poses a major challenge to the treating physician. This study was conducted (1) to describe the differences in clinical and angiographic presentation of patients with carotid and vertebral artery dissections (CAD, VAD), (2) to define the circumstances that are related to bilateral arterial dissections, and (3) to determine factors that predict a poor outcome. Retrospectively and by standardised interview, we studied 126 patients with cervical artery dissections. Preceding traumata, vascular risk factors, presenting local and ischemic symptoms, and patient-outcome were evaluated. Patients with CAD presented more often with a partial Horner's syndrome and had a higher prevalence of fibromuscular dysplasia than patients with VAD. Patients with VAD complained more often of neck pain, more frequently reported a preceding chiropractic manipulation and had a higher incidence of bilateral dissections than patients with CAD. Bilateral VAD was significantly related to a preceding chiropractic manipulation. Multivariate analysis showed that the variables stroke and arterial occlusion were the only independent factors associated with a poor outcome. This study emphasises the potential dangers of chiropractic manipulation of the cervical spine. Probably owing to the systematic use of forceful neck-rotation to both sides, this treatment was significantly associated with bilateral VAD. Patients with dissection-related cervical artery occlusion had a significantly increased risk of suffering a disabling stroke.

it's true that the practice of medicine has its flaws, and some of the practices are indeed unsupported by evidence. however, and this can not be emphasized enough, we as a community recognize this and utilize the proper tools to weed out what doesn't work. (with the proper tools coming from evidence based medicine: therapies based on double blind placebo or current-practice controlled trials.)

chiropractic doesn't have this ethic to back it up, and as i have shown with the quoted abstracts actually is associated with an increased risk of injury to arteries in your neck. i personally would not go to a chiropractor for neck manipulation under any circumstances. if i had chronic back pain unresponsive to "normal" therapy, sure, i might give it a try.

personally i'm also open to acupuncture, since there's a mixed bag of studies showing its possible efficacy for treatment of pain (in addition to lots of anectdotal evidence)...

so to cut this ramble short a list of summary points:
a) don't call people names
b) chiropractic may well screw up your neck. don't drink the kool aid
c) "traditional" medicine has its shortcomings but, like science in a broader sense, those shortcomings are always being addressed. it's not like researchers just sit around and maniacally devise ways to bilk the public out of more and more money. incidentally, if you're sick about rising health care costs blame everyone and their mom who is obese, hypertensive, and type II diabetic due to total lack of physical activity...

 

[Toshi]

F modern medicine, it's useless. Everyday I hear

"oh, a new ******g drug to lower cholesterol"

note : MIGHT CAUSE STROKE

funny you mention drugs to lower cholesterol: there is only so much you can do with diet + exercise (and positive thoughts or whatever you feel like doing). statins have completely changed the ballgame, and many more people are alive for them due to the decreased risk of heart attack when they get their LDL cholesterol down...

 

[robdamanii]

wow. i'm jumping in this one a bit late, since i had to go to witch doctor school all day long

anyway, there is little to no evidence that chiropractic helps. here's a study i came up with in 2 minutes of searching on "systematic reviews":


here's another:

so chiropractic works as well as exercise or PT for neck and back pain. that is, when the chiropractor doesn't screw up your neck:

it's true that the practice of medicine has its flaws, and some of the practices are indeed unsupported by evidence. however, and this can not be emphasized enough, we as a community recognize this and utilize the proper tools to weed out what doesn't work. (with the proper tools coming from evidence based medicine: therapies based on double blind placebo or current-practice controlled trials.)

chiropractic doesn't have this ethic to back it up, and as i have shown with the quoted abstracts actually is associated with an increased risk of injury to arteries in your neck. i personally would not go to a chiropractor for neck manipulation under any circumstances. if i had chronic back pain unresponsive to "normal" therapy, sure, i might give it a try.

personally i'm also open to acupuncture, since there's a mixed bag of studies showing its possible efficacy for treatment of pain (in addition to lots of anectdotal evidence)...

so to cut this ramble short a list of summary points:
a) don't call people names
b) chiropractic may well screw up your neck. don't drink the kool aid
c) "traditional" medicine has its shortcomings but, like science in a broader sense, those shortcomings are always being addressed. it's not like researchers just sit around and maniacally devise ways to bilk the public out of more and more money. incidentally, if you're sick about rising health care costs blame everyone and their mom who is obese, hypertensive, and type II diabetic due to total lack of physical activity...

And doctors are great.

Vioxx was a great drug wasn't it? And you'd have prescribed it too.

I know it works, and funny that NONE of your research is by an American journal. Interesting.

You're wrong. You have your discipline, I'll have mine. And I'll be satisfied that I'm helping people in MY way, and you can help them in YOUR way.

 

[Toshi]

NEVER did I say penicillin did nothing for mankind, stop putting words in my mouth. I said that there CERTAINLY is empirical evidence for the efficacy of chiropractic manipulation and it's beneficial effects on the human body.

prove me wrong, see two posts up.

 

[Toshi]

Yeah, name calling is cool. As is calling an entire legitimate profession of DOCTORS quacks, liars, witch doctors, etc.

note to the audience. chiropractors are NOT DOCTORS. don't let anyone tell you otherwise. (and neither am i, just for the record. still have some years ahead.)

 

[Toshi]

if i got seriously ill in beijing, i'd take my chances getting treatment from someone like Toshi rather than the some guy w/ an impressive array of dried tiger penises and bear gall bladders.

but that's just me.

<throws collection of tiger penii out of window>

 

[robdamanii]

Toshi, you're coming from a completely different school of thought. I consider your school of thought wrong. Deal with it. You're wrong in my eyes. My profession has shown me that more people have benefeited from chiro care than medical care. That's my evidence, and it's purely my opinion.

 

[MtnBikerChk]

That's my evidence, and it's purely my opinion.

 

[Toshi]

Toshi, you're coming from a completely different school of thought. I consider your school of thought wrong. Deal with it. You're wrong in my eyes. My profession has shown me that more people have benefeited from chiro care than medical care. That's my evidence, and it's purely my opinion.

you're certainly entitled to your opinion, but as you state three times in the above post it's simply that. not backed up by evidence, not supported by controlled trials, but rather just a belief.

you know what that sounds like? CREATIONISM. by trying to sidestep the lack of evidence for your chosen belief you reduce yourself to the level of the frothing fundamentalists.

And doctors are great.

Vioxx was a great drug wasn't it? And you'd have prescribed it too.

I know it works, and funny that NONE of your research is by an American journal. Interesting.

You're wrong. You have your discipline, I'll have mine. And I'll be satisfied that I'm helping people in MY way, and you can help them in YOUR way.

do you know why Vioxx led to an increased risk of cardiac events? or are you just picking at a low hanging fruit of which you know a bit about?

altho merck did admittedly do some shameful things to try to suppress early research showing the harmful effects of the drug, the eventual response was to remove it from the market. come talk to me when chiropractors stop doing neck manipulation, which (i'm guessing) probably has a higher risk of adverse outcome than popping a vioxx every day.

 

[DRB]

Toshi, you're coming from a completely different school of thought. I consider your school of thought wrong. Deal with it. You're wrong in my eyes. My profession has shown me that more people have benefeited from chiro care than medical care. That's my evidence, and it's purely my opinion.

So the scientific method is wrong? Actual doctors and hospitals are wrong? You already said the following:

Would I say an acupuncturist will cure cancer? No. Would they cure HIV or AIDS? No. Will they fix a gunshot wound? No. To say otherwise is lunacy.

Will what you are learning do any of that? Will if fix a lacirated spleen? How about a torn ACL? Gun shots?

What if tomorrow you woke up spitting up blood?

"Normal" doctors fixed each of those for me. Could you?

 

[Changleen]

...1...

 

[Changleen]

...0...

 

[Toshi]

I know it works, and funny that NONE of your research is by an American journal. Interesting.

actually, none of those pubmed abstracts i quoted listed the journal, just the academic institutions of the authors.

for the record:

Dziewas et al's article was published in J Neurol. 2003 Oct;250(10):1179-84.
Ernst was published in J Pain. 2003 Oct;4(8):417-21.
Ferreira et al's article was published in J Manipulative Physiol Ther. 2003 Nov-Dec;26(9):593-601.

not that it matters but the journal of pain is an american publication, the journal of neurology is a european rag, and J Manipulative Physiol Ther. actually is run by chiropractors from the US.

 

[Changleen]

0.4675? Maybe?

I personally have been helped by 'modern medicine' and 'new age type stuff'.

I regularly see a masseur for RSI, and it really works. I've also taken homeopathic medicines which have worked really well, and I've also 'thought' my way back to health like Knuckleslammer. (Human Brain = R0x0rz) I also use modern hay fever medecines, and they work too!

It's all good people. Different cures for different problems. I think if you go to a homeopath for 1st aid on a gunshot wound you're pretty dumb though. Horses for courses. The right tool for the job.

 

[Toshi]

it's actually interesting how much complementary and alternative medicine we're taught in (allopathic) med school. we're nothing if not aware... and massage, acupuncture, and chiropractic for back pain (and naturopathy for some non-serious ailments) are all worth a try imo. like i've written several times already in this thread, however, don't go to a chiropractor for neck manipulation, and don't expect homeopathy to do jack squat.

oh yeah, and tell your doctor what herbs/over the counter junk you're taking. it may not hurt you directly (or help you, as they're not FDA regulated and may contain any number of substances which may or may not include the one which is on the label, etc.) but they sometimes do interact negatively with prescribed meds by messing with metabolism in the liver and whatnot.

 

[Westy]

I think you said:



Or this



Or from above



For someone so sensitive about their choices of professions you are very quick to judge MDs, their motivations and their abilities. So using your logic and your gf I think y'all should get off their backs until you have the same level of education and experience as they do in their chosen fields.

And the PD forum heavies come out. Make sure you dot your i's and cross your Ts because your going to get owned.

 

[robdamanii]

0.4675? Maybe?

I personally have been helped by 'modern medicine' and 'new age type stuff'.

I regularly see a masseur for RSI, and it really works. I've also taken homeopathic medicines which have worked really well, and I've also 'thought' my way back to health like Knuckleslammer. (Human Brain = R0x0rz) I also use modern hay fever medecines, and they work too!

It's all good people. Different cures for different problems. I think if you go to a homeopath for 1st aid on a gunshot wound you're pretty dumb though. Horses for courses. The right tool for the job.

Exactly. You take the route that works for you.

Modern medicine has not worked for me or for a great number of people I've know, and I personally choose not to use it except in the most extreme circumstances.

Problems with that opinion?

 

[JimmyTwoTimes]

And doctors are great.

Vioxx was a great drug wasn't it? And you'd have prescribed it too.

I know it works, and funny that NONE of your research is by an American journal. Interesting.

You're wrong. You have your discipline, I'll have mine. And I'll be satisfied that I'm helping people in MY way, and you can help them in YOUR way.

Which brings us back to my point. Merck knew Vioxx could kill, yet they still pushed it.....and who says drug cos. are doing whatever is best for the people? Just ask the thousands who died from Vioxx.

 

[robdamanii]

Which brings us back to my point. Merck knew Vioxx could kill, yet they still pushed it.....and who says drug cos. are doing whatever is best for the people? Just ask the thousands who died from Vioxx.

Yeah, but even things like that aren't good enough to consider alternative means of healing. *shrug* To each their own.

 

[JimmyTwoTimes]

Yeah, but even things like that aren't good enough to consider alternative means of healing. *shrug* To each their own.

I'm with ya.

 

[Wumpus]

 

[narlus]

you know, w/ this whole Refco investment scandal, i think that the entire financial services industry is a bunch of shady dealings and should not be allowed to exist.

 

[BikeGeek]

<throws collection of tiger penii out of window>

How is tiger penis usually prescribed....orally?

:devil:

 

[DRB]

How is tiger penis usually prescribed....orally?

:devil:

Depends if the tiger is alive or not.

 

[BikeGeek]

Depends if the tiger is alive or not.

So it could be an injection?

 

[DRB]

So it could be an injection?

Well if the tiger is alive, its going to be given pretty much how he wants you to get it.

 

[SilentJ]

Frankly, unless you're actually a member of said profession, you do NOT know the educational philosophy or the physiological reasoning behind what we do. That's the nature of the beast. It's not nearly as readily available as WebMD.

Is this something that you'd tell a patient if they asked you why you were going to bend them in a certain way? So I have to go to chiro school to understand what is being done to me?
"Sorry, you're not a chiropractor so you just wouldn't understand." - I suppose a lot of people are satisfied with that answer...

 

[SilentJ]

you know what that sounds like? CREATIONISM. by trying to sidestep the lack of evidence for your chosen belief you reduce yourself to the level of the frothing fundamentalists.

Has there been a debate on creationism vs. evolution? I'm sure it'd get interesting...

 

[narlus]

Well if the tiger is alive, its going to be given pretty much how he wants you to get it.

ouch!

 

[Knuckleslammer]

funny you mention drugs to lower cholesterol: there is only so much you can do with diet + exercise (and positive thoughts or whatever you feel like doing). statins have completely changed the ballgame, and many more people are alive for them due to the decreased risk of heart attack when they get their LDL cholesterol down...

YEAH, statins. LOL. Look, there's no talking to you doctors. You guys are brainwashed by drug compainies and textbooks. When someone decides they want to lower their cholesterol, your saying that they have no other alternative than to take toxic drugs ha? Why? The initial blueprint for humans is perfection. We have deviated from that due to the environment and our reactions to the environment. Look, I'm not saying that they're aren't genetic propensities that exist that could manifest into disease states. But it is the our attitudes and reactions to the environment that triggers the propensities to manifest. Now that's some good info that your doctor (GUESSER) would never tell you, because they are just clones, reading from the same textbook.

GOOD DAY

 

[DRB]

YEAH, statins. LOL. Look, there's no talking to you doctors. You guys are brainwashed by drug compainies and textbooks. When someone decides they want to lower their cholesterol, your saying that they have no other alternative than to take toxic drugs ha? Why? The initial blueprint for humans is perfection. We have deviated from that due to the environment and our reactions to the environment. Look, I'm not saying that they're aren't genetic propensities that exist that could manifest into disease states. But it is the our attitudes and reactions to the environment that triggers the propensities to manifest. Now that's some good info that your doctor (GUESSER) would never tell you, because they are just clones, reading from the same textbook.

GOOD DAY

And next time I laceriate my spleen how do I fix it mentally?

 

[Knuckleslammer]

Ask Buddha to fix it.

Look, I still go to the doctor. I have taken acid reflux meds for years and I'm glad for it. I would get heartburn from water.

Then, I edjucated myself. Do you realize that most hospital visits for severe heartburn occur on Sunday evening and Monday morning?

Why is this. What do people usually eat a lot of on Sunday? Remember what most people do on Sunday. Plant their ass on a couch and waste 4 hours of valuable time watching a bunch of illiterate morons pound their heads together and throw a ball around. Not my idea of fun, but to each his own.

Usually this activity results in people eating large quantities of potato chips and doritos.

Now your doctor wont tell you this, but when you don't chew up those chips properly, your spincter muscle in your stomach gets damaged, cut, ripped and eventually can't operate correctly.

Now to cure this and get off the prilosec I was taking, I decided that instead of masking the problem (as does the prilosec) I was going to fix it.

I stopped eating hard sharp foods for 2 weeks, I ate only eggs, cottage cheese, breads, salads and any other soft food. Before and after each meal, I would take 1 tbsp of unprocessed raw pure unpasteurized honey and a glass of water.

I did this for 2 weeks and my heartburn is gone. No more medicine. Now if I do eat hard foods like potato chips and doritos, I chew them properly.

I haven't had hearburn since. You want to fix something, you have 2 options
1. Take some medicine that will usually only mask the symptoms of the problem. (there is no medicine that you take that will cure something - your on it for life usually)
2. Edjucate yourself and fix it yourself.

Yeah, if I ruptured my spleen, I would go to the hospital. That's common sense. However, I am not going to take some frign pill because some GUESSER (who usually relies primarily on lab results) tells me it's my only option.

Tom

 

[Knuckleslammer]

OH and furthermore

Doctors are no better than mechanics in my opinion.

SLIMEBALLS


Tom

 

[Greyhound]

I need a shower after reading all this......

 

[stevew]

illiterate morons pound their heads together and throw a ball around..................


2. Edjucate yourself and fix it yourself.

There is a "u" missing in there somewhere.

 

[narlus]

OH and furthermore

Doctors are no better than mechanics in my opinion.

SLIMEBALLS


Tom

do you have the name of a good holistic auto healer? i think my cv joint's on the way out.