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D3.1 and Alpine III build notes

Discussion in 'The Shop' started by ohio, Jun 24, 2003.

  1. ohio

    ohio The Fresno Kid

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    This should probably go in the Mech Forum, but given the components, it's probably more useful here...

    So last night, I finally got away from work early enough to lace up the new wheelset: D3.1s, Hope Bulbs, DT Alpine IIIs, 16mm brass nipples. They didn't get tensioned for two reasons:
    1. The rims don't come with a wrench for the proprietary nipple inserts
    2. It took friggin an hour and a half just to lace both of them up...

    DT lists a minimum spoke hole size of 2.3mm for hubs if you plan to use the Apline IIIs. The Hopes are 2.6mm and I cannot imagine building them up if the holes were any smaller. Each spoke was a squeeze, especially the elbows-in spokes where you had to flex a 13G spoke to clear th other flange while pushing it through the spoke hole. Normally, I'll lace the spokes the the hub and the rim one at a time. With these, you HAVE TO lace the whole hub first.

    Also, mavic doesn't do the best job of chasing the threads for the nipple inserts, and since there are 32 holes per rim, that is a lot of opportunities for cross threading. It only takes one screw up to bung the whole rim, so that can be a tedious process, especially when about 4-5 holes on each rim have rough threads that just don't want to accept the insert straight.

    Normally I enjoy building wheels, but in this case (especially with the potential for ruining an expensive rim), I'd say it's worth it to let your LBS do it for you.

    Anyway, now that it's laced up, the rest of the process should be easy, just like any other wheel. I just need to swing by the LBS to borrow their Mavic spoke insert wrench, and loctite the inserts all the way in...

    Fortunately I don't need them until next week.
     

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  2. ssaddict

    ssaddict Monkey

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    Yup, I've had much the same experience with the few sets of X3.1's and D3.1's I've built. They do take some extra time and care, but I really love how easy they are to run tubeless so it's worth all the effort in my book. If you havn't built many wheels you really should let someone else do it for your though.

    FYI Do NOT Over Tension The Alloy Adapters, they will snap and ruin your day and the rim. (I didn't do it, but one of my buddies at the shop did after he put on red loctite :eek: )
     
  3. MikeD

    MikeD Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists

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    Do you put all the nips and adapters in the rim prior to lacing, or do you screw each adapter in as you lace??

    And are you saying to use red locktite, but not to overtighten it, or should you use blue or none at all?

    (this is why I had someone else build my x3.1s!!)

    MD
     
  4. - seb

    - seb Turbo Monkey

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    Yes it's annoying that they don't come with a tool, but to be expected I suppose......

    I had no problems with cross-threading on mine, maybe you got a bad one.


    One at a time.
     
  5. ssaddict

    ssaddict Monkey

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    Mavic recomends Blue loctite, not like there is a huge difference and if you were to overtighten it and snap the head off your still going to be more or less screwed unless you can figure a way to get it out. Problem is they are reversed threads, so you can't even use a tool like an easy out to remove them. They just need to be snug, its not too difficult.

    Lace the hub, then place an adapter onto each spoke, then the nipple, and then thread into appropiate hole in the rim with a little bit of blue loctite. Its just more time consuming than a standard wheel, it takes about twice as much time the first couple you build till you get the hang of it.
     
  6. Ian F

    Ian F Turbo Monkey

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    I'd agree with that. I normally build my own wheels, but it didn't take too many stories like yours to convince me to have my LBS build the three D3.1 wheels I have up for me. $30 per wheel well spent. I'll probably not build wheels again. I simply don't build them often enough to get proficient, so every build is like the first time and it shows. :rolleyes: A better-built wheel lasts longer.
     
  7. Brian HCM#1

    Brian HCM#1 MMMMMMMMM BEER!!!!!!!!!!

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    Great to know, how do they look so far?
     
  8. ohio

    ohio The Fresno Kid

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    Funny, seeing as the spokes are curving all over the place from lack of tension...

    I'll give a full ride report, when everything is built. That'll also include the El Jefe, and the 8.5" mod for '00 DHRs.
     
  9. Brian HCM#1

    Brian HCM#1 MMMMMMMMM BEER!!!!!!!!!!

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    Cool, can't wait:thumb:
     
  10. VooDoo

    VooDoo asshat

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    Weren't those one's 9with the bolt on shock mount) prone to cracking? You made a new shock mount right? what size chock are you now using??? (2.75, 3.0?)
     
  11. ohio

    ohio The Fresno Kid

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    Yup.

    And it's a 2.75. That allows me to use the stock linkage... just playing with a new frame mount I get a very good compression curve and extra .75" of travel. Gives a touch more BB clearance too which is nice on the East Coast.

    Once I'm sure I'm happy with the mounting point, I'll mill them out of Ti to ensure durability...
     
  12. dw

    dw Wiffle Ball ninja

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    Thanks for the info man

    dw
     
  13. peter6061

    peter6061 Turbo Monkey

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    I agree with you guys. Be careful when threading the nipple inserts. I was showing a co-worker how to build up his Kings on some x3.1s and ran into one set of threads that was not very smooth. Fortunetly, I got there before he had cross threaded it.

    Sucks about the tool not coming with the rims. All we had at the shop were some for the Crossmax and Ksyriums(smaller).

    Great rims though! I've been riding some tubeless for the last month and just switched to non tubeless tires with Stan's(No rim strip) and they're holding up fine. Super light too.
     
  14. VooDoo

    VooDoo asshat

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    Sweet... if i get a DHR i'll know who to call... (Ghostbusters that is!)
     
  15. ohio

    ohio The Fresno Kid

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    So this weekend was the first real riding I've put on the wheels. Can't say I noticed much about them. The bike had previously been ridden with WTB DH wheels, followed by a 521/magura rear Singletrack/Onyx front... all 14/15 32x except the 521 which was 36x. Weight wasn't super noticeable... the 10mm rear hub was a bit of a squeeze into the drops and won't fit on my hardtail, which means my wheelsets are no longer perfectly interchangeable.

    Tubeless was super nice. The same tires (Mobster 2.7 ST, High Roller 2.5 SR) were ridden once on the old wheelset, and they definitely felt more planted this time around. BTW, latex and water wasn't enough for a seal; I needed to use Slime "for tubeless" which worked great even at half the recommended dose. The tires go on easy with just bare hands, which is a godsend after the WTBs. Airing up was a crapshoot, the supplied shraeder valves don't work if I tighten then all the way down, and even set up correctly, I had to fiddle a little with tire positioning to get it to pop to the rim. Once it's there, the rest is easy. I aired them up to about 65psi (which is what it took to get the bead to fully seat), and swished around the slime inside... no problems at all after that.

    While I'm at it, I should say that my DH3 is a HUUUUGE improvement over my Boxxer. So far I'm very pleased with it... but I haven't had to service it yet.
    edit: also I promised a report on the El Jefe... unfortunately it still hasn't arrived, so that'll have to wait.
     
  16. Brian HCM#1

    Brian HCM#1 MMMMMMMMM BEER!!!!!!!!!!

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    Glad everything worked out well? You have a WB DH3?
     
  17. ohio

    ohio The Fresno Kid

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    Yeah, I got rid of my boxxer at the beginning of this season. It was pretty beat, and I wanted to try something different. The boxxer never felt great and I wanted a slacker HA and taller BB. The WB is the best feeling fork I've ever been on, once it's cycled a few times... beats every Shiver, Boxxer, S7/MX6 and Monster I've ever tried. I haven't spent enough time on an S8, Avy, Dorado, or Foes to compare, but the damping is amazing. At 7.0lbs catalog weight (I never weighed mine. I don't weigh things), it's pretty raceable too.

    The fox RC in the back balanced nicely with the boxxer. Now I notice that the rear isn't as planted as the front. May go to a 2.5/2.5 tire combo for the next race to even things out, until I replace the shock.
     
  18. VooDoo

    VooDoo asshat

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    have you tried the new dh2.0?
    it feels EVEN BETTER than a DH3, ****ing awesome (you can feel the damping)...
    one thing on the DH3, make sure to burp it once a week (on the brake side) my cousin has blown his seal on that side so many times i cant count... then he figured out it was gaining pressure causing the seals to blow... so try to burp it as often as you can to keep the seals good...
     
  19. ohio

    ohio The Fresno Kid

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    Haven't been on the 2.0, but the forks are basically identical except for the spring stack length, unless you have an older DH3 without the metallic bushings.

    Thanks for the heads up on burping the seals... haven't done that yet.
     
  20. spincrazy

    spincrazy I love to climb

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    STICKY THIS THREAD PLEASE.

    Great info Ohio and others. I'm having some built up fairly soon.
     
  21. Repack

    Repack Turbo Monkey

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    I built a set of x3.1's last night. I ended up putting the spokes in the hub in sets of 8, just like I do every other wheel I build. I found it worked best to put the insert and then the nipple on the spoke as each set of 8 was put through the hub, and then thread the insert in. I was a little concerned at how long the spokes seemed to be. It was strange not being able to use a nipple driver-couldn't gage how much I was tightening the spoke. I just put about 3 full turns on each nipple going every fourth spoke until it began to tension. It probobly took 4 passes like this. I started by tightening the spokes until the threads were covered. For a few spokes I tried putting the nipples and inserts in to the rim first, but that was a bad idea. In the end, they built up just like any other wheel, you just need to proceed with the same level of caution you used for the first wheel you ever built. The one "trick" I found was to tighten the insert as I put it in. More room that way.
     
  22. Brian HCM#1

    Brian HCM#1 MMMMMMMMM BEER!!!!!!!!!!

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    Thats interesting, I have a 2000 DH<2 and I actually like it, very plush, the only negitive is the rebound adjustment is worthless, not much range at all.
     
  23. oldfart

    oldfart Turbo Monkey

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    I wouldn't use red locktite, that's too permanent. How would you replace a broken spoke? What I did was pretty much the same as everyone else, but I ran the nopple up to the threads then threaded the inserts in a about one turn by hand. Once I had all the inserts in, I placed the wheel on its side and put a drop of blue locktite on each insert, then threaded then all in at one time. I think its a bit faster this way. The last pair built up in about 3 hours start to finish. That was because I had a moment of dislexia and put the long spokes on the freewheel side and had to relace the damn thing after I discovered it wasn't going to build right.
     
  24. NastySid

    NastySid Monkey

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    My Mavic supplyer is very cool.. Called him up and ordered a D3.1 and then 20 minutes later he calls back and ask if we have the tool.

    It's a pretty costly and well made tool tho. Can understand why they dont send one out with every rim..

    Was a real baddie to build too.. Normal wheel takes aprox 25 minutes from scratch.. THis was over an hour..

    Dont like red loctite very much.. Was changing the cylinder linings in a old MF tractor.. Took almost all day to wrench them out using a extractor..

    THen when the new ones are on their way in... The stuff prematurely hardens leavinb 1/3 of the lining sticking out the block :/
     
  25. punkassean

    punkassean Turbo Monkey

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    My D3.1's came with the tool and so did my Ksryiums? That's wierd...

    But then again my Saint cranks didn't come with the needed tools and XTR's did?

    Who knows:confused:

    As far as the building process goes, I laced 'em up 1 spoke at a time, first sliding the nipple bucket over the spoke and then greasing and threading the nipple on part way. I then greased the bucket and carefully threaded it into the rim. On rough threads after tightening the bucket all the way, I backed it all the way out and added more grease to the threads and then re-tightened the bucket. I also used 12mm nipples contrary to Mavic's 16mm recommendation and they work fine. There is plenty of head to grab with a spoke wrench if you gently pull an arc into the spoke. I didn't find it to be much more work tahn a normal wheel-build however some of the bucket threads were rough as you described, just take your time and go slow. You will be rewarded with a great set of wheels!:cool:
     
  26. Repack

    Repack Turbo Monkey

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    Mavic resomends using loctite on the inserts. They do loosen. I used spoke prep and they are staying in. Mavic recomsnds the use of 16mm nipples to keep them from falling into the rim while building. It does suck about the tools. The x3.1's I laced came with nothing.
     
  27. punkassean

    punkassean Turbo Monkey

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    I know why Mavic recommends the use of 16mm nipples but I wanted people to know that 12mm nipples will work fine and since a lot of us are going tubeless primarily to save as much weight as possible, using 12mm alloys can save weight over 16mm alloys or even more over 16mm brass. As far as the spoke buckets loosening, I ride my bike upwards of three times a week and that includes jumps and drops and lots of climbing. I have yet to have one come loose after 6 months 9with grease and not loctite). But more important than all of that is the tool scenario, Mavic needs to supply the needed tools for proper building with every rim purchase, even if it means $2-4 more per rim. I was very mad at Shimano for not sending any tools with my Saint cranks, Luckily my shop had XTR's in stock that were sent with tools, but I still can't service my cranks at home. There is nothing worse than waiting for special tools to install new product on your ride. Especially after you've already waited days/weeks for the product itself.
     
  28. Salami

    Salami Turbo Monkey

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    Keep in mind when changing the nipple length the spoke length needs to be adjusted accordingly.
     
  29. Repack

    Repack Turbo Monkey

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    Not nesessarily. All of the 16mm nipples I have seen have the threads in the same place as on a 12mm nipple. Just the flats for the spoke wrench have been lengthened to allow the nipple to clear a thicker rim. Mavic recomends using 16mm nipples with their tubeless rims to prevent the nipple from slipping into the rim and to allow the flats to clear the nub that holds the nipple. But the size/shape/length/location of the threaded portion remains the same.
     
  30. Salami

    Salami Turbo Monkey

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    Not true. I am assuming you have used DT nipples before, correct?

    I was told the same thing by a few wheel builders and it also said the same in an older QBP catalog.

    Bottom line get out a spoke ruler and any length spoke, and a 12mm and 16mm DT nipple. Thread them all the way on and measure to where the beveled edge of the nipple (where it would sit against the grommet). Do it with both size nipples and you will get a difference of about 2-3mm.


    DT's new spoke calculator also makes changes in spoke lengths as you change the nipple size.
     
  31. afroboy

    afroboy Chimp

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    To those upset about Mavic not supplying the tool for the nipple 'buckets', here is a question for you: do you think tools grow on trees? Even if they did, would anyone need more than one? No. The onus is on you to get your s**t together and get yourself the tool if you are going to run the rims. I can see Shimano including the plastic tool for the cranks - you might very well run your cranks for years. But there is one crankset per bike, not two. And people tend to replace more rims than cranks. So, don't sweat it, just get the tool, once. And try to remember that riding requires placces to ride, and most of us like to ride in the woods. Keep in mind that you consumption impacts everything and everyone. It helps to make efforts to minimize the accumulation of junk, and extra spoke wrenches count as junk.
     
  32. Repack

    Repack Turbo Monkey

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    Which is why I said
    instead of somehting like always/never.
     
  33. Salami

    Salami Turbo Monkey

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    What are you talking about?

    Go re-read your previous two posts and my previous two posts.:clue: