[slimshady]

I 100% agree with the underlined portion.

I knew we would step on common ground there. Again, it's a matter of trade-offs and concessions. If you can bare the risk of living in a country where the risk associated with so many guns in the streets, that's OK with me, as long as it's not the country I'm living in. The same applies to asshats driving over their skills (although that one is much more closer in my case, and we are currently pushing for stronger traffic/vehicle laws down here).


Now, back on topic again, this issue got some cross-posts with the Ft Bill thread. I know it has been stated the athletes know the risks they are facing when they decide to do their thing, but this is just another case where I'd like to have an organisation (such as the UCI, the National Federation overseeing the races, or whoever puts them together) overseeing the consequences of hard crashes. We all tend to loose all self preservation instincts while being pumped on adrenaline, so if you mean to keep pushing it after giving your noggin a pretty beating, that authority should ban you from competing in the interest of you being able to do it again in the future.

 

[jonKranked]

How many of those suicides could have been prevented if we had a slightly less dogshit mental health care system in this country? Take the methodology out of the equation and just look at the numbers, we've got a lot of people killing themselves in this country. Even people who can afford health care don't get it, that's quite a bit more embarrassing than the fact that their preferred methodology is a constant source of bickering.

agree on the mental health system 100%, but that's not the point i'm trying to make here.

Methodology is absolutely worth pointing out, because while the US is #50 in the world in suicides per capita overall, we are #1 for suicides by firearm per capita.

 

[jonKranked]

I 100% agree with the underlined portion.

part of me sometimes wonders if people should be less focused on regulating the purchasing / acquisition of firearms, and more focused on regulating training for said firearms.

 

[kickstand]

part of me sometimes wonders if people should be less focused on regulating the purchasing / acquisition of firearms, and more focused on regulating training for said firearms.

I think it is OK to require additional training classes to purchase certain classes of weapons, as well as go through additional background checks. Similar to CCW and CPL laws.

I am 100% on board with the focus on training and education requirements for certain guns. I see this as a very fair compromise between the hardcore 2nd amendment folks and the hardcore anti gun folks.

 

[jonKranked]

I think it is OK to require additional training classes to purchase certain classes of weapons, as well as go through additional background checks. Similar to CCW and CPL laws.

I am 100% on board with the focus on training and education requirements for certain guns. I see this as a very fair compromise between the hardcore 2nd amendment folks and the hardcore anti gun folks.

kinda like how there's additional requirements to get a CDL over a regular drivers license, if we're gonna work with the car analogy.

 

[jonKranked]

also, i'd be 100% on board with mandatory training for certain classes of firearms too.

one other thing i think would help is harsher punishment for straw buyers.

 

[maxyedor]

agree on the mental health system 100%, but that's not the point i'm trying to make here.

Methodology is absolutely worth pointing out, because while the US is #50 in the world in suicides per capita overall, we are #1 for suicides by firearm per capita.

It really shouldn't be a surprise that we're #1 in firearm suicides, we're #1 in gun ownership. I agree with it being worth pointing out, but I believe people place far, far too much importance on it, even going so far as to say the method used is the main reason for a suicide in some cases. Yes firearms are an efficient way to kill yourself and others, but by the time you get the motivation to kill yourself and others, you've lost you way a long, long time ago.

We're back to debating gun control in the Dave Mirra thread, but I absolutely agree with more training over more regulations. We have more guns than people in this country, but we don't teach gun safety, we won't even talk to our kids about them for fear that simply knowing they exist will inspire them to become murders. Even if you don't have one, and never intend to fire one, you should probably know how to safely handle one. For those of us that do choose to own a gun, we owe it to ourselves and those around us to be as competent as humanly possible with it.


Back on the topic at hand, Rogan is a bit nutty, but this episode with Dr. Mark Gordon is worth a listen

The brain trauma he's helping treat in combat vets shares a lot of similarities with that of action sports athletes. Ultimately I doubt his research and hormone treatment will be the end-all be-all, but he's light years ahead of his peers and a really interesting guy as well.

 

[jonKranked]

It really shouldn't be a surprise that we're #1 in firearm suicides, we're #1 in gun ownership. I agree with it being worth pointing out, but I believe people place far, far too much importance on it, even going so far as to say the method used is the main reason for a suicide in some cases. Yes firearms are an efficient way to kill yourself and others, but by the time you get the motivation to kill yourself and others, you've lost you way a long, long time ago.

i'm not trying to correlate the method to the main reason, but moreso that when combined with the impulsive behavior common with brain trauma and the instantaneous nature of suicide by firearm, it raises they question were they truly suicidal or simply acting impulsively due to the brain injury? most other methods of suicide aren't as instantaneous, making it less likely to be an impulsive decision.

We're back to debating gun control in the Dave Mirra thread, but I absolutely agree with more training over more regulations. We have more guns than people in this country, but we don't teach gun safety, we won't even talk to our kids about them for fear that simply knowing they exist will inspire them to become murders. Even if you don't have one, and never intend to fire one, you should probably know how to safely handle one. For those of us that do choose to own a gun, we owe it to ourselves and those around us to be as competent as humanly possible with it.

i like shooting (a lot actually) and fully plan on teaching my kid(s) to shoot and safely handle a firearm, even if they never plan on owning one either. just a valuable life skill. that being said i don't own a firearm, nor do i plan to.

 

[kickstand]

kinda like how there's additional requirements to get a CDL over a regular drivers license, if we're gonna work with the car analogy.

I can work within that sort of frame work. Makes logical sense to me.

That said, we do have measures in place regarding fully automatic weapons, it's difficult to get approved for one, and I don't know any of the details...but I don't see why something couldn't be put in place for other firearms that have large capacity semi auto capabilities.

It's harder to buy a handgun than it is a hunting rifle (more so on the used market).

We do require classes and certification for concealed carry currently.

In general we are regulating towards that type of path, but more could be done with out taking away any rights of those of us who qualify to own and purchase and carry.

 

[kickstand]

i like shooting (a lot actually) and fully plan on teaching my kid(s) to shoot and safely handle a firearm, even if they never plan on owning one either. just a valuable life skill. that being said i don't own a firearm, nor do i plan to.

Me too, from the pellet gun, to the hand gun, to the shot gun to the AR-15 they are all very fun to shoot in a safe and controlled environment, putting holes in paper is a lot more fun that I ever expected it could be.

 

[toowacky]

 

[jonKranked]

Me too, from the pellet gun, to the hand gun, to the shot gun to the AR-15 they are all very fun to shoot in a safe and controlled environment, putting holes in paper is a lot more fun that I ever expected it could be.

the guy i shoot with most often has a 50 cal that's a blast. he only brings it out occasionally because a box of 10 rounds is like $100.

 

[kickstand]

the guy i shoot with most often has a 50 cal that's a blast. he only brings it out occasionally because a box of 10 rounds is like $100.

Never shot a 50 cal, but would love to.

 

[slimshady]

Never shot a 50 cal, but would love to.

I did! I used to date a girl whose whole family was into guns. They had their own private arsenal, including several FN FAL rifles, 9mm Glocks and two Desert Eagle frames, convertible between .357, .44 and .50. Her brothers used those for practical shooting (in the .357 variant). The .50 was pretty hard on the wrists, and as JK said, the rounds were expensive as shit (not as much as the rifle ones I guess).

I liked the guns more as machines than as firing devices to be honest. For three years in my early 20s my weekends were like this: reload rounds on Saturdays, and fire them at the firing range on Sundays. I used to ride my bike from my house to the local train station, ride the train to her town (a 40-min trip) and then ride my hardtail again to her house.

One of those Sundays, when I was preparing to go back home, a local scumbag jumped over the backyard's fence of her house and stole my bike. One of her older brothers saw him, and screamed at me "hey, some scumbag is stealing your bike!". I ran to the front door and saw the guy pedaling his ass off (I left the bike in the granny ring). I started running after him, and soon the brother was chasing him too. When he got next to me, he handed me a Glock, and kept running. I starting thinking what the heck was I supposed to do with it, the darn thing was heavy as fuck, I was just using a pair of swimming bermuda shorts (which couldn't keep the gun to my waist) and a t-shirt since it was summer, and above all I wasn't interested in shooting anything but paper silhouettes.

All I could think was "some neighbor will see me running with a gun in my hand, call the police and I'll be immersed in shit to my chin". We eventually lost the thief and returned to her home, where I almost got the older brother deaf with insults about how stupid he was for handing me that gun. But that situation gave me a pretty good idea of how a rush of hot blood to your head could get you in trouble with a gun. That's why I concur with the idea of educating everyone in gun use and control. That asshat of my girlfriend's brother was eager to shoot anyone, and deserved to spend a lot of time with a psychologist.

Oddly enough, I recovered that same bike (a '98 Karakoram with purple paintjob and HS33 Maguras) two years after, when I saw a guy riding it, faced him and claimed it was mine.

 

[maxyedor]

iit raises they question were they truly suicidal or simply acting impulsively due to the brain injury?

I'm not sure I see the difference. I know there are lots of people who threaten to kill themselves, or even attempt to and fail, which we chalk up to a "cry for help" and maybe my view on this is too black and white, but I'd consider all suicide (save for assisted suicide for medical reasons) a cry for help. I forget the name of the doc. but there's a movie out there somewhere that interviews a bunch of people that jumped off the Golden Gate but survived, almost every single one of them realized they'd made a mistake the second after they jumped. So I see where you're coming from in asserting that, had they not had such a quick method of killing themselves, there's a chance they could have been saved and then received the treatment they need, but at that point we're counting on a miracle, never a good idea when it comes to health issues. Yes, it would likely save some lives, but IMHO, targeting guns to reduce suicide is the last step, not the first. Wait to exhaust all other options that only effect those contemplating suicide before you start restricting everybody's rights. The same applies to any and all rights.

Never shot a 50 cal, but would love to.

You definitely should, but try to find a really, really long range to shoot it at. One of my local spots has a 75 yard rifle range, and will let you shoot their .50 for $15/round. Sort of defeats the point. Shoot one at 1500yards, and things start to get really interesting. I shoot .30 cal at 1000-1100 yards regularly, and it's pretty tricky, but even with the faster heavier bullet, being able to reach out to 1500+ is a whole different level. There's allegedly guys who shoot at a range out in the desert on weekdays so they can fire over the parking lot and normal firing line and run out to 2k+, that makes my brain itch thinking about those shots.

 

[jonKranked]

I'm not sure I see the difference. I know there are lots of people who threaten to kill themselves, or even attempt to and fail, which we chalk up to a "cry for help" and maybe my view on this is too black and white, but I'd consider all suicide (save for assisted suicide for medical reasons) a cry for help. I forget the name of the doc. but there's a movie out there somewhere that interviews a bunch of people that jumped off the Golden Gate but survived, almost every single one of them realized they'd made a mistake the second after they jumped. So I see where you're coming from in asserting that, had they not had such a quick method of killing themselves, there's a chance they could have been saved and then received the treatment they need, but at that point we're counting on a miracle, never a good idea when it comes to health issues

this is basically what i'm getting at. not so much they're counting on a miracle, but because of the impulsive decision, it's one that they immediately regretted. and this kind of impulsive behavior is a well documented symptom of brain damage.

and yes, i agree that banning guns won't solve it; not only do we need better access to mental health care, our society needs to stop treating it as such a taboo subject.

 

[cecil]

I'm not sure I see the difference. I know there are lots of people who threaten to kill themselves, or even attempt to and fail, which we chalk up to a "cry for help" and maybe my view on this is too black and white, but I'd consider all suicide (save for assisted suicide for medical reasons) a cry for help. I forget the name of the doc. but there's a movie out there somewhere that interviews a bunch of people that jumped off the Golden Gate but survived, almost every single one of them realized they'd made a mistake the second after they jumped. So I see where you're coming from in asserting that, had they not had such a quick method of killing themselves, there's a chance they could have been saved and then received the treatment they need, but at that point we're counting on a miracle, never a good idea when it comes to health issues. Yes, it would likely save some lives, but IMHO, targeting guns to reduce suicide is the last step, not the first. Wait to exhaust all other options that only effect those contemplating suicide before you start restricting everybody's rights. The same applies to any and all rights.





You definitely should, but try to find a really, really long range to shoot it at. One of my local spots has a 75 yard rifle range, and will let you shoot their .50 for $15/round. Sort of defeats the point. Shoot one at 1500yards, and things start to get really interesting. I shoot .30 cal at 1000-1100 yards regularly, and it's pretty tricky, but even with the faster heavier bullet, being able to reach out to 1500+ is a whole different level. There's allegedly guys who shoot at a range out in the desert on weekdays so they can fire over the parking lot and normal firing line and run out to 2k+, that makes my brain itch thinking about those shots.

I think its called the bridge

 

[sethimus]

how many would be killed if you crazy ppl only had sticks and stones to kill each other?

 

[sethimus]

http://www.theonion.com/blogpost/its-honor-continue-being-valued-over-countless-hum-53094

 

[TrumbullHucker]

Dave Mirra thread turned into gun debate.

fucking
out

 

[sethimus]

Dave Mirra thread turned into gun debate.

fucking
out

looking at the usa from the outside a gun debate is what the country needs the most right now, more than talking about concussions.

 

[TrumbullHucker]

looking at the usa from the outside a gun debate is what the country needs the most right now, more than talking about concussions.

yeah maybe in "firearms & mac and cheese" subforum of ridemonkey?

were talking about concussions in here

 

[kidwoo]

yeah maybe in "firearms & mac and cheese" subforum of ridemonkey?

were talking about concussions in here

Meh. Concussions that lead to depression and suicides, just like Mirra's case. The relative ease of acquisition of the means of carrying out the suicide part is a component of what happened. It's easy to forget how unusual this society is regarding guns when you live here. It's not unreasonable to think that if it were a bigger pain in the ass to get guns in america, a few more people might still be alive, including Mirra. It's just as relevant as talking about health care here. Both are part of the equation in what happened. You may not like it but it's true.

 

[bdamschen]

Woo has a solid point. A lot of people don't seem to realize that some symptoms of people who have experienced a lot of traumatic brain injuries is depression and impulse control issues. Many suicidal people who have survived their attempts or have been talked down later report that they want to live and regret the attempt. Basically the urge to kill themselves is temporary and if they can get help, or wait long enough it may pass. Where the gun argument fits into all of this is how quickly and easily you can kill yourself with one. Load the gun, put it to your head, pull the trigger. It can be done privately in your own home with no one around to try and help you.

If a gun was not available to someone, most other methods of suicide either take longer to implement or take longer to kill you and leave open the possibility of someone intervening before the act (say a guy climbing over the railing on a bridge) or medical aid saving their life later(rushed to the hospital for ODing on pills).

Do I want to get into the gun debate for the population as a whole? No way. Am I a gun owner who wants to keep his right to own guns and buy other if I choose? Yes.

I do still believe that issues like these should enter into the conversation and cannot be ignored. Maybe along the lines of- identifying symptoms of someone suffering the effects of too many TBIs and limiting their access to guns and getting them proper care, I don't know. What I do know is the sooner we talk about things like this, the more likely we are to save a life in the future.

 

[TrumbullHucker]

Okay okay.. I do see the point; it does seem like it is the easiest and quickest way out... I just got hot real fast cause I'm sick of my reading my dumb high school friends arguing on facebook.. at least its a proper discussion here

 

[c.o.d51]

The brain injuries lead to more than simply depression. While it can appear as depression, there's a very good chance that it's not. TBI's make your brain produce less serotonin and the serotonin that is produced is sucked back up in all sorts of random amounts at random times. Because of that, you end up with randomly occurring, gigantic, uncontrollable mood swings. You could be having the greatest time, doing something you think you love, and then just break down crying, wondering why you bother with anything at all when we're all going to die anyways (morbid).

At least, that's what happened to me after a severe TBI. I don't remember a week of my life, relearned how to read, walk, etc, and Jr Seau taking his life makes sense to me. From what I've been reading, TBI's and CTE are closely intertwined. TBI probably leads to CTE (especially after previous concussions{that'll probably suck, eh? haha, oh well}). We need to get quite a bit more information on brain injuries and CTE because we don't know the long term affects of brain injuries yet, nor do we really know much at all about CTE. We can't even diagnosis it while people are alive. Concussions need to be taken much more seriously too because having a 30 second short-term memory really, really sucks. You don't want that. What also sucks is knowing you have memories, or you should, but you can't actually recall any of them. Point being, don't fuck with your head, you really do only get one of them.

During the first year when I was recovering from my TBI, I was suicidal more than once. I had times where I thought everything was pointless, knew none of that made sense, and couldn't do anything about it. This was do to the huge mood swings that came with the TBI (separate from depression, but you can have both, and at the same time). Had I had access to firearms during that time, I might've taken my life. Thankfully, I didn't have access to them. Oh, yeah, during that time, I wasn't allowed to drive either (while it was for multiple reasons, the whole wanting to die thing was one of them).

Going through all of that, I can say that, without a shadow of a doubt, I'll never own a gun because I see it as a risk that I don't want to take. I'm good now, but will things change in the future? Will CTE kick in, bringing back the mood swings and uncontrollable behavior? I don't know, nor does anyone else. I won't risk it though, and I hope no one else does either. With that in mind, I do think that limiting access to firearms post TBI is a really, really good idea. Hindsight is (sadly) 20/20.

 

[slyfink]

A bit of investigative journalism from Pinkbike? http://www.pinkbike.com/news/brain-injuries-in-mountain-biking-are-we-doing-enough-2016.html

 

[slimshady]

Came here to post the same stuff. Pretty daunting data there. Let's hope the awareness drives more money into CTE research, and some time in the future its true causes would be unveiled.

 

[mrgto]

I guess the question I would ask is if Daves family and friends knew he was having issues why they allowed him to keep his firearm?

I went thru some serious health issues and was not myself for a while. I was on some serious meds. My father took my firearms from me without my knowledge because he cared for me and my safety. HE saw I was not in the mindset to be trusted with a firearm a HE took the initiative to protect me.

I think people should take care of their friends and family and quit asking the government to fix it.

 

[slimshady]

I guess the question I would ask is if Daves family and friends knew he was having issues why they allowed him to keep his firearm?

I went thru some serious health issues and was not myself for a while. I was on some serious meds. My father took my firearms from me without my knowledge because he cared for me and my safety. HE saw I was not in the mindset to be trusted with a firearm a HE took the initiative to protect me.

I think people should take care of their friends and family and quit asking the government to fix it.

Well, as said before in this thread, education plays a major role when it comes to guns. That implies educating the populace in the ways you describe. Most of the education efforts seem directed to avoid harming other people than the gun owner, and TBH as an outsider clinical depression doesn't seem to be well acknowledged in the US.

 

[slyfink]

I guess the question I would ask is if Daves family and friends knew he was having issues why they allowed him to keep his firearm?

I went thru some serious health issues and was not myself for a while. I was on some serious meds. My father took my firearms from me without my knowledge because he cared for me and my safety. HE saw I was not in the mindset to be trusted with a firearm a HE took the initiative to protect me.

I think people should take care of their friends and family and quit asking the government to fix it.

I hesitated a lot before responding because I really don't feel like derailling this thread any further, but I guess I just can't help myself. But my question to you is why can't we have both? Obviously your option is the best option, but when that fails, then what?

And to bring it back to the Pinkbike post, what happens when it's not family supporting you at a race, but rather your team/sponsors. They have commercial interests at play, not just personal bonds. There needs to be mechanism to make sure the individual is protected when their friends and family aren't there, and commercial interests are at play. I believe this is what the Pinkbike article was getting at.

And finally, to bring the two points together, how do you know the family didn't try and intervene? Or maybe the family didn't really understand the relation between CTE and suicidal tendencies, and would have intervened had they known? I think "the unknown unknowns" are another big factor in this situation.

And while I'm glad your dad did what's right for you, your post sounds a lot like victim blaming.

 

[Gary]

I think people should take care of their friends and family and quit asking the government to fix it.

in an ideal world we would have BOTH...

Depression or infact any mental illness can have the side effect of pushing away friends and family. Partly through lack of understanding/education. Partly because no matter how much you care it's fucking hard being there for someone who's mental and In the grand scale of things most governments don't really give a fuck about individuals.

Your Father sounds like a good guy. Not all are.

it ain't easy.

[Posted same time as you @slyfink ]

 

[Nick]

Your Father sounds like a good guy. Not all are.

it ain't easy

 

[mrgto]

I hesitated a lot before responding because I really don't feel like derailling this thread any further, but I guess I just can't help myself. But my question to you is why can't we have both? Obviously your option is the best option, but when that fails, then what?

And to bring it back to the Pinkbike post, what happens when it's not family supporting you at a race, but rather your team/sponsors. They have commercial interests at play, not just personal bonds. There needs to be mechanism to make sure the individual is protected when their friends and family aren't there, and commercial interests are at play. I believe this is what the Pinkbike article was getting at.

And finally, to bring the two points together, how do you know the family didn't try and intervene? Or maybe the family didn't really understand the relation between CTE and suicidal tendencies, and would have intervened had they known? I think "the unknown unknowns" are another big factor in this situation.

And while I'm glad your dad did what's right for you, your post sounds a lot like victim blaming.

The laws are in place. http://www.ncsl.org/research/civil-and-criminal-justice/possession-of-a-firearm-by-the-mentally-ill.aspx

The problem is, you have to be " diagnosed" before the law will take effect.

My question is if how do you stop the people that haven't been "diagnosed" yet?

There is no law that will ever be that will protect a person from themselves or people that wish to do us harm.

If the commercially interested people pushed Dave too hard without regard for his health just to make a dime off of him, i would like to know who they are because I'd never spend my dime with them again.

No victim blaming here. I've seen first hand what suicide does to people on both sides. I just don't pretend a law will solve the problem.

 

[Gary]

There is no solution man. But anything that helps has to be a good thing

 

[sethimus]

holy shit

http://www.gq.com/story/inside-federal-bureau-of-way-too-many-guns

what a backwards country

 

[Bikael Molton]

http://www.rollingstone.com/sports/dave-mirras-suicide-cte-and-extreme-athletes-w438361

 

[dump]

holy shit

http://www.gq.com/story/inside-federal-bureau-of-way-too-many-guns

what a backwards country

Learn something new every day. Amazing. So backwards it hurts.

 

[mykel]

Good Read

https://www.outsideonline.com/2108551/impact-zone?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=facebookpost

 

[Muddy]

Good Read

https://www.outsideonline.com/2108551/impact-zone?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=facebookpost

No doubt Medical Data can illustrate damage to the central nervous system and then provide a case-basis analysis of the possibilities. What it cannot make separate are the trigger mechanisms and behavior patterns which corrupt one's Free Will.

This is sad knowing Dave Mirra made a choice which then stole his life from everyone he knew. I'd seen this first hand in my own life - had a Suicide be committed with me the intended-witness. Horrific stuff to be made a memory for anyone.

People within high-tier Sports are forced to perform, easily can lose their own self-identifiers with fame, money and, expanded excess. It'd be understandable to assume periods of low self esteem, self worth as demands for one's time and attention strip away the support once known and once maintained.

Dave Mirra was posthumously given diagnosis and also the first sports figure to be diagnosed with his affliction. But - no one is able to make known the recurring pressure weighing upon Dave Mirra (RIP) and assuming the entire tragedy to be strictly Neurological is unjust.