Mind you, this was all going on while the USAC board was dismantling NORBA...
Dear UCI,now that you're about to lose an assload of money....
- Thread starter SCARY
- Start date
I bet Mickey is not wearing any pants today.
I've barely worn pants since 1999.
the plot sickens
I pissed some poeple off here a few years back by suggesting that perhaps we should embrace doping. Make it transparent, get it out of backrooms so athletes could be assured the best/safest products. Also, maybe most importantly, so top level athletes don't have to lie and live in constant fear just to be competitive.
I really would love to know what percentage of the road circuit dope. Talking about the high profile riders of course but in my mind, Lance's accomplishments are not diminished as I feel it highly likely that most, if not nearly all the riders that make it to the Tour are partaking. There are just so many being busted that it has to be like cockroaches, for every one you see there are hundreds you don't. So I hear at least.
^yeah, personally the performance enhancements are not a problem. It's the secrecy, deception, & corruption that make this so ugly.
95%-99% in one way or another would be my bet. It's probably like MMA where they are almost encouraged to use PED's, then just cycle off for testing.
I'm almost certain every single pro sport player, especially NFL/NHL/NBA are on PEDs most of the time. Just look at how fast they come back from injuries still bulked up. Anavar does a lot for someone with a broken leg who can't work out..... impossible to maintain the muscle mass and not hit atrophy if you're 100% natural.
Can't wait to see the implications this causes. I'd love to see the top brass at the UCI get what they deserve.
I'm almost certain every single pro sport player, especially NFL/NHL/NBA are on PEDs most of the time. Just look at how fast they come back from injuries still bulked up. Anavar does a lot for someone with a broken leg who can't work out..... impossible to maintain the muscle mass and not hit atrophy if you're 100% natural.
Can't wait to see the implications this causes. I'd love to see the top brass at the UCI get what they deserve.
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No, what really makes it ugly is how many riders were forced out of competition (and thus their cycling careers) because they refused to dope.
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Couple thoughts - I wonder if it would then largely boil down to who has (i.e. can afford) the best doctors? Say you take 2 athletes who are roughly equivalent in terms of ability and skill, one guy is on a team that can afford Dr. Ferrari (<-- best doper doctor name ever?) and another less well funded rider gets a lesser physician who while competent and won't turn said rider's blood in viscous sludge, doesn't have nearly the experience and overall knowledge base as the Italian sports car guy does. I guess one could say some forms of auto racing are already like that in terms of a certain engine being significantly superior to all others, but still, it would suck if it (mainly, not entirely) became a contest of chemistry rather than pure ability. Although, the more I think about it, the more it seems its already like that - I just don't see how "legalizing" it will change that. Second, I also wonder about what kind of message that sends to non-professional riders? Would the fast Cat2 guys be more willing to try it since it's no longer taboo? If so, do they have the resources and wherewithal to do it safely? I have been told that doping already occurs in non-pro categories, but I do not believe it is widespread, so are there potential problems with encouraging it through legalization? And since we're going to allow doping, what about 'roids and HGH? Are they cool too as long as a doctor is involved? So then do teenagers pick up the needle as well to get ahead? If cycling is allowed to do all the PEDs, do the rest of the endurance sports get the same? As a disclaimer, I'm not completely opposed to the concept, but I think there could be some serious consequences associated with it that would need to be considered.
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when doping gets introduced, it pretty much becomes ALL about who has the most money, and how much risk you're willing to take. More money = better drugs and more of them, better doctors for it, bigger bribes to keep people quiet, etc.
The problem isn't the doping it's the high-level criminality.
We're talking about multi-million dollar money laundering operations in at least 4 countries, smuggling, witness intimidation, perjury, etc.
This is a problem for US mtb and gravity people- because these corporate criminals targeted our sports, tore them down and laughed about it all the way to the bank.
If you're interested in reading the sealed Justice Department findings from the whistle blower case the NYDN cracked it and released it for download at this link
This whole thing effected MTB racing a lot- and it did take money out of the pockets of all of our athletes.
You'll notice that one of America's largest bike companies is mentioned in the DOJ documents, for instance.
We're talking about multi-million dollar money laundering operations in at least 4 countries, smuggling, witness intimidation, perjury, etc.
This is a problem for US mtb and gravity people- because these corporate criminals targeted our sports, tore them down and laughed about it all the way to the bank.
If you're interested in reading the sealed Justice Department findings from the whistle blower case the NYDN cracked it and released it for download at this link
This whole thing effected MTB racing a lot- and it did take money out of the pockets of all of our athletes.
You'll notice that one of America's largest bike companies is mentioned in the DOJ documents, for instance.
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If I told you that some people - like Armstrong - are hyper-responders to dope, would you still think it's a level playing field? The level playing field argument is just as stupid as the lie itself.
Talented athletes who trained just as hard but who were already near the top of the scale physiologically were pushed out of the sport because doping didn't provide them with as much of an advantage as tools like Armstrong.
We have some fairly reliable competition and testing data on Armstrong's non-doped baseline. He's still world-class, but not as world-class as his results indicated.
read tyler hammiltons book. Shed some light on all you could ever want to know on road cycling...
Partial reason as to why Gwinn switched?
I blame this all on Arnold. The guy was massive and could take down a hostile alien with improvised jungle weapons. Who wouldn't want to be just like him?
Good point on the hyper-responders, I am not aware enough to know if that is the case or not. But really, what is a level playing field when it comes to road cycling sport? I don't mean to be argumentative but there really is no such thing if you start looking at details. Money, the root of it all. With money comes connections, resources, access to tools legal or not that make the field impossible to be level. Drugs are just a part of that. There are legal high altitude simulation trainers, dietitians, mental and physical therapists, etc that when you can combine all, give you more of an advantage than those who can't afford.
Somebody used Formula 1 as an example and that is an example of my point. Without breaking the rules of the sport, it is possible to have a car that is significantly better made possible by the budget. It is a side effect of having a popular sport.
I am not condoning PED's, I think they are a black mark on any sport and a horrible example to the youth. As well as outright lying. I am not defending Lance either. I just think people ignorant of the real problem and by the general populace focusing on him, it makes it easy to think of him as the problem and as soon as he gives up his money/awards/accolades, problem solved. He was just another guy in the group and I fear him being made a scapegoat.
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Scapegoat? He was by and far the worst offender in the decades that doping took place. The doping program he ran was more sophisticated than any before it or since then.
and possibly among any other sport too.
Did he run it? I don't know all the details regarding whether he was a user or manufacturer type. I know he was the winningest and that makes him easy to focus on. Where are details coming in from regarding the sophistication and hierarchy of this debacle?
please read tylers book. I know it is one side of the story but it sheds some srs light on dope in the roadie world.
the USADA report, based on the testimony of his former teamates and many others.
yes. ran it, enabled it, enforced it.
Tyler Hamilton's book is a good read if you're genuinely interested.
Yes, he ran it. And let's make it clear, he wasn't just casually doping to gain an edge. It was a fundamental part of his strategy to win, and win more than anyone else in the history of the tour.
From what I've read, if a rider wasnt willing to dope, they didn't make the team.
Sounds like he wanted it the most, and worked the hardest at it, and won in a crowd of other dopers. I say more props to him.
he was just the best funded and the most ruthless d-bag.
oh you mean how he conveniently made over $100k in donations to the UCI coincidentally right after a positive test occurred (which was conveniently explained away).
Go read all the info that's out there. UCI is implicated. WADA is implicated. It reads like a freakin' Tom Clancy novel.
Wow, a ton of hearsay being thrown around here as fact. And to demonize someone who could have possibly been given a bigger edge through drugs (although that's not been proven, either)... 
Seems like you have axes to grind, so whatever you claim to know for certain should be even more suspect.
Seems like you have axes to grind, so whatever you claim to know for certain should be even more suspect.
All this info is available in the usada decision file. Not hearsay.
To be fair, its not a light read at over 1,000 pages. The 33 page whistleblower suit linked from the NY Daily News article that Mickey posted would be a faster read.
And all 100% fact?
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Yes. Until there are official reports of others that are funded more and bigger d-bags than him, it will remain a fact.
i'd say the $30 million of taxpayer money he got from the USPS would indicate so.
And by every single account i've ever read about encounters with him, he is a d-bag (and in the running for the biggest in the universe). haven't met the guy. Then again, I've never been to outer space, but I have no reason to doubt other first hand accounts that gravity is zero.
Kinda,
Named party Tom Weisel(postal team owner, USAC mucky-muck) actually piloted the venture capital firm that gave Amgen the money they needed to bring EPO onto the market.
Talk about a vested interest in doping!
For me the doping is only a small part, I can stomach what he did there. What I find completely reprehensible is what he did to innocent people who merely tried to tell the truth. Bullying, intimidation, threats of harm, fincancial and emotional harship. Kathy and Greg LeMond, Emma O'Reilly, David Walsh, Paul Kimmage, Mike Anderson, Betsy and Frank Andreau.
There are all people he used his public and media profiles, money, power and legal resources to silence, belittle, ridicule and defame all in the name of hime perpetuating his lie.
I woke up to him after reading the USADA Reasoned Decision, I only wish I had been awake earlier. So in my books he's not a bad guy for taking drugs but he is morally and ethically bankrupt for what he did to others. And this guy deserves eveything coming his way and then some. I keep having to remind myself not to have sympathy. The only ones I feel for are his kids.
On the UCI topic I hope he dumps everthing he knows and we can sweep the broom through the corrupt organisation that happens to run the by-product sport DH. We can then hopefully raise the profile of our great discipline and get it the exposure it deserves. But in the meantime a wrecking ball has just gone through cycling.
There are all people he used his public and media profiles, money, power and legal resources to silence, belittle, ridicule and defame all in the name of hime perpetuating his lie.
I woke up to him after reading the USADA Reasoned Decision, I only wish I had been awake earlier. So in my books he's not a bad guy for taking drugs but he is morally and ethically bankrupt for what he did to others. And this guy deserves eveything coming his way and then some. I keep having to remind myself not to have sympathy. The only ones I feel for are his kids.
On the UCI topic I hope he dumps everthing he knows and we can sweep the broom through the corrupt organisation that happens to run the by-product sport DH. We can then hopefully raise the profile of our great discipline and get it the exposure it deserves. But in the meantime a wrecking ball has just gone through cycling.
...and these are only the people who spoke up. Who knows how many others remained silent.
Prejudice: because it's way easier than actually thinking for yourself...
The problem is you can't really embrace it. Yes you can make more stuff legal but you want to make legal even the most dangerous products? Because there will be some people willing to risk their health just to win