You're not going to follow the PSP method and launch yourself into outerspace to check then?
Dear UCI,now that you're about to lose an assload of money....
- Thread starter SCARY
- Start date
I absolutely agree. From my original list I forgot Christopher Bassons a man who Armstrong ended his pro cycling career after breaking the peleton omerta.
Tommy Danielson took collegiate MTB championships from two really good friends of mine.
People nobody ever heard of again...
Tommy on the other hand, well, he bought a nice house and some fast cars with lies.
It's not just one man- it's a GIGANTIC freaking criminal operation run by ruthless animals.
Drugs are only criminal because we (governements at least) say they are criminal. Nothing really intrinsically wrong with doping, especially if every competitor is doing it anyways.
You mean every single DH racer, MX rider, pro (american) football player, rugby player, non-doping cyclist, etc. Almost EVERY professional sport has serious, serious health and safety risks. Doping is probably wayyyyyy down on the list of dangers they face in cycling.
Call me crazy but weaving in between motorcycles while descending some twisty alpine road at 60+ mph wearning nothing but lycra anda 100g helmet is probably a bit more dangerous to your health and safety then taking a few performance enhancing drugs under the supervision of a doctor.
The problem is you think the doctors would stop some athletes from using stronger drugs that are untested or linked to hormone problems or even worse heart problems. A small minority of cyclists are f'ed up in their old years because they hit a tree. There are many ex steroid users with serious health issues later in their years. Yes you can sanction some of the steroids that under supervision of a doctor and with cycling are moderately safe but what would prevent some riders from going to harder stuff that can really damange their body?
Friend of mine, was up at a certain energy/snack bar event a couple months ago, a variety of road and mtb riders were there. A certain pro road racer sat next to friend of mine and they got to talking about road/doping (go hand in hand dont they?). So like most racer industry people, we all have known all of these dark and dirty secrets about USPS/Lance, for YEARS...but what this roadie guy told my friend was news to me. He said not only was Lance the kingpin, spent the most on dope and doctors, but he was ALSO paying the doctors of his competition, to administer incorrect doses, placebo drugs, and poor quality drugs! Some of the doctors were making more from Lance, than they were from their own clients!!
CEO and Chief scumbag, the Bernie Madoff of sports.
CEO and Chief scumbag, the Bernie Madoff of sports.
Ok, no offense but that sounds a bit over the top. This thread has been a great read and in a lot of ways enlightening but certainly need to keep the critical thinking hat on.
I couldn't agree with you less.
Doping is about desperation, salvation and exploitation.
Dont make any mistakes, everybody has a choice, a lot of tasty gristle in their teeth seeping sweet victors-blood pushes the vulnerable over the edge.
Just like Pantanis handlers filled him with enough cocaine and EPO to get him back on the bike over and over again until he killed himself, and Vandenbroucke offed himself from the shame and confusion of a life built on lies and Ulrich lost himself in drugs and depression- and countless other stories of suicide and self-destruction among some of the brightest hopes of a generation of cyclists, doping kills young people.
Armstrong WAS doping culture, enforced doping culture, and did everything possible to build an empire off of it.
Doping kills people, sometimes physically, always mentally.
For every Armstrong or Hincapie there are dozens that didn't survive the shame, anxiety and depression- living lies is not healthy and it is not acceptable. Some people washed out, others were mentally destroyed and not just by Armstrong's machine but by their own hidden secrets. Performance enhancing drugs make you feel... enhanced.
Coming down is mentally very difficult- especially if you try to quit cold turkey.
A mythologized a$$wipe like Armstrong needs to be publicly shamed, jailed, brutally eviscerated and destroyed in public until heis debased to the slimy, selfish prick he is and always has been.
Yes, I am vindictive, bitter and a little jealous and I have every right to be, because I've held a racing license for 20 years and it's been widely known the entire time that Armstrong is a sociopath and that the US governing bodies have been implicit in every one of his debacles, from the first time they injected him with cortisone and testosterone as a junior.
The "men" who organised and funded this are already criminals and were criminals long before they got involved with Armstrong or USAC. That the same jerkbats took over American bike racing and still control it seems to be a fact lost on many people.
Icarus.
. Now I'm showing my age. For the young ones have a look on youtube.
Credible dudes, and this side of the story will probably come out too. People thought the **** we learned 4 months ago was 'over the top' until USADA report came out.
'Critical thinking'...haha, you do realize you are talking about Lance Armstrong, right?
There is so much of the story and saga to come this is merely the tip of the iceberg. From the cycling news forum:http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323783704578246001221628488.html
Defines 'conflict of interest'.
If any of you guys want to get up to speed The Clinic on Cycling News is a treasure trove, just need to time to read it all.
You could be right, It is all just so "like a Tom Clancy novel" as to be nigh unbelievable at times. A lot of guys I respect (yourself included) are stating similar things. Doesn't make it necessarily true, just more likely to be so if you know what I mean.
But seriously good info and opinions being presented here. Appreciate everybody's involvement.
"Sociopath" is probably the perfect word.
I guess we should be thankful that he hasn't killed anyone(that we know of) but I'd bet he'd be really good at it.
I wanna see the movie version of all this.You know it's gonna happen.
Wonder what the title would be?
"Brass Ball"?
"The Douche in Tights"?
"Brian Lopes,Time to Reassess his Bad Reputation "
I guess we should be thankful that he hasn't killed anyone(that we know of) but I'd bet he'd be really good at it.
I wanna see the movie version of all this.You know it's gonna happen.
Wonder what the title would be?
"Brass Ball"?
"The Douche in Tights"?
"Brian Lopes,Time to Reassess his Bad Reputation "
Lance Armstrong, and doping in cycling. I'm not sure there are too many scenarios that aren't at least within the realm of possibility. With the personalities and money involved, double agent doctors doesn't sound too far fetched.
Go ahead a be sceptical, but don't be surprised.
I've been discussing this whole topic on and off for years with Mickey. Everything he told me that, at the time, sounded like a bunch of tin foil conspiracy theory bs showed up in the usada judgement. Corroborated by over two dozen people who witnessed it all first hand, in statements provided under oath. Seriously, go read it.
Here's the link:
http://cyclinginvestigation.usada.org
And/or just had the best access to and support for it (from his team, from officials, etc). It's no longer a level playing field when you introduce an unofficial, unregulated factor, and I think that is the issue that will remain no matter which way you look at it.
Anyone know about what a team at the tour costs for one go? And also how much does a years worth of doping/epo/etc cost relative to the whole enchilada? Lance supposedly paid Ferrari $1mil for all 7 years, no?
That 'bet' is just your opinion backed up with zero facts.
I wasn't making an argument in either direction, just pointing out your flawed logic. What would be fair is either prohibiting drugs or making them legal on an equal playing ground. Access to the drugs is just one small component of the operation and similar access doesn't mean a similar chance of getting away with it (test avoidance, having a blind eye turned to known doping, etc).
My point stands - without regulation, it's not only cheating, but also not necessarily a fair win like you imply.
In the USADA Reasoned Decision it describes how USPS did it better than anyone else. Even within the team was a pecking order and LA had access to the best stuff of course. There weren't too many other riders around with the deep pockets that LA had.
Surely you can't really be so dense? Equating training, nutrition supplements, sports drinks, etc to be on the same spectrum with full scale systematic doping (in clear violation of specific rules) takes a serious degree of mental-midgetry.
If doesn't even pass the most basic test of legality, ie if the behavior is illegal outside of sport it was no acceptable place in competition.
Possession of a controlled substance
Prescription fraud
Etc, etc...
The products used for doping are intended to treat a specific medical condition, among which 'failure to win races' is not an acceptable diagnosis.
No one is suggesting that everything can be regulated or should be. What gets regulated are the borders of acceptable practice, and what goes on inside those borders is fair game (competition). Outside those borders is cheating.
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Phrase of the month for me.
There was an interesting suggestion a couple of years back on how to avoid or control doping. The main idea was to set limits on certain parameters of bodily functions, e.g. the hematocrit. If it is set at 50% then it doesn't matter how you reach it, natural, with doping etc.. In the end you are only admitted to a race if your level is below this number. Similar to a minimum weight of the bikes. Would be easy to control and level the playing field if all parameters that are performance related can be defined and monitored.
Only caught the first half. Based on what I saw, I don't think the entire truth came out. Lance is far too shrewd and strategic to cash in all his chips on a tv interview when he knows there's a very high probability that the federal case against him well be reopened.
^^^ What Micky said in #89
What ever happen to sport being about measuring the capability of the human body and mind in a raw, natural form? I guess this died when sport and money collided...
As for the interview last night, saw some of it, clearly guarded half-truths, got to see a sociopath megalomaniac in action for about 10 minutes before I turned it off because of the 3 minute ad breaks for every 3 minutes of interview.
What ever happen to sport being about measuring the capability of the human body and mind in a raw, natural form? I guess this died when sport and money collided...
As for the interview last night, saw some of it, clearly guarded half-truths, got to see a sociopath megalomaniac in action for about 10 minutes before I turned it off because of the 3 minute ad breaks for every 3 minutes of interview.
You saved me a post. Spot on.
That was about 1/3 truth. At least he didn't outright deny the hospital incident.
money and greed fvcks everything up
Couldn't agree more. Add selfishness and power and you've cut all of humanity's problems down to the core in four words.
lance and his connections..... http://velorooms.com/files/ArmstrongBusinessConnections.pdf
this is why this is way bigger than just him doping. It was a vast conspiracy that made a lot of people a lot of money. The only thing he's sorry about is getting caught, and he's obviously still very much pissed off at those that let the cat out of the bag.
this is why this is way bigger than just him doping. It was a vast conspiracy that made a lot of people a lot of money. The only thing he's sorry about is getting caught, and he's obviously still very much pissed off at those that let the cat out of the bag.
Statute of limitations ran out on most of the older stuff. The 2009, 2010 Tour he lied about, he could still face serious charges/lawsuits for those if he admitted anything. Also on the UCI topic i think he sidestepped opening a ugly can of worms. He did take drugs other guys didn't have on the "A-Team", at least according to Tyler Hamilton.
Interesting timing to the whole thing, Foyd Landis whistlerblower case is due to expire in the next couple weeks. I was wondering why he didn't wait til that date was past.....
my understanding is that the statute is up for perjury charges, but they could still go after him for obstruction of justice.
and those charges are separate from the whistleblower case that landis filed for fraud - which concerns the $30 million they received from the USPS and their contract that stipulated the team wouldn't dope.
I want Lions, Cheetas chasing the cyclists. Ride fast or die. Ditch the money all together....
Yes......listen to the Tyler Hamilton information that has come out. Tyler got bad blood on a few key occassions just as his speed was starting to rivals Lance's. Lance and his cronies knew where everyone went to for blood and drugs. He had the ability to influence ad control the sitautions before the race even started.
It was all very mafia, double agent stuff. Lance controlled as many outcomes as he could. He prob got off on it.....as much as the winnning.
Neither of us know the exact details.....but i agree with you, he was not being totally truthful. I don't think he wants to go to jail or lose every penny he has.
There are some area he knows to be careful in what he is saying....
I thought i heard on the news the Whistlerblower case was set to expire in the next week or two.......which i thought was made the timing of this odd. Lance got a team of lawyers, i guess they knew the ropes...