You will dig them in the front, destroy them in the rear.jacksonpt said:
The magic 8 ball says so.
debate time - Tubeless: yes or no?
- Thread starter jacksonpt
- Start date
The magic 8 ball says so.
Don't bother, you're not missing out.jacksonpt said:
Good mud tires, and good tires if you have some kind of perverted urge to run a 3.0... Other than that, the rubber compound is mediocre and the knobs are so tall that they fold over under hard cornering...
I was taken in by the cool, aggressive looking tread, and in the soft stuff/mud they sink right in, but they're just not good for much else.
And loco, I carry a few grams worth of tire patches. Not that I have to use them, considering the latex sealant will seal any holes I have. No walks out of the woods for me, eh?
J
JRB
Guest
Every flat I had on tubeless required a boot and a tube. Messy too. How do you get them to stick with sealant on the tire?binary visions said:
20PSI?!?jacksonpt said:
Do you run big, wide tires with beefy sidewalls? Holy moly. If I ran 20PSI I'd have 8 pinch flats per *day*
-S.S.-
Only ever had to do it once, and I just scraped off the inside of the tire and used a little water from my pack to clean it. Pat dry, and glue the patch on. You can't really use the self-stick patches - the adhesive isn't strong enough.loco-gringo said:
It is a little messy but if you take the wheel off and let it sit for 10 seconds with the area to be patched at the top, most of the latex drips to the bottom of the tire.. Easy.
jacksonpt said:
Good tires, but the knobs tend to rip off easily.
98%?? I think you're being generous. It's more constructive to simply ignore MTBR altogether..............loco-gringo said:
-S.S.-
I'm sure they work really well if you don't *actually* ride.......Knuckleslammer said:
-S.S.-
Overall, I LOVE the tubeless for XC/trailriding, but I have heard that when you run tubeless on DH with low pressure, you are more likely to "burp" the tires when going hard into a corner.
Just don't be lulled into the false security of "no pinchflats" - because it *is* possible to pinchflat a tubeless tire.binary visions said:
-S.S.-
I've been using the UST systems since it came out (5 years?). In that time I have had 2 flats. 2 flats in 5 years. I think that speaks for itself.
I'm sure tire quality makes a big difference and I have been using Hutchinson Pythons the entire time. I am scared to try another tire because I've had so much success with the Pythons.
This weekend I hit a sharp rock very hard. It sliced the side of my tire half way through and carved a little groove in my rim. When the tire was compressed against the rim, half the air in the tire escaped but the tire resealed itself before all teh air was lost. I only had to put some air back in the tire and I was riding again. Any other tire would have been sliced wide open. Tubless tires have thicker sidewalls.
Cons:
Flats are a bitch to fix. You have to carry a spare tube just in case.
You can't run the tires as long as a standard tire. They will start to leak when the casing has taken a beating - so plan on replacing your tires more often. They last a long time - but if you are the type that runs tires until the threads are hanging out - you can forget that with tubeless.
I'm sure tire quality makes a big difference and I have been using Hutchinson Pythons the entire time. I am scared to try another tire because I've had so much success with the Pythons.
This weekend I hit a sharp rock very hard. It sliced the side of my tire half way through and carved a little groove in my rim. When the tire was compressed against the rim, half the air in the tire escaped but the tire resealed itself before all teh air was lost. I only had to put some air back in the tire and I was riding again. Any other tire would have been sliced wide open. Tubless tires have thicker sidewalls.
Cons:
Flats are a bitch to fix. You have to carry a spare tube just in case.
You can't run the tires as long as a standard tire. They will start to leak when the casing has taken a beating - so plan on replacing your tires more often. They last a long time - but if you are the type that runs tires until the threads are hanging out - you can forget that with tubeless.
Well, true, but it usually happens when you are running your pressure way too low and are bottoming out the tire on the rim all the time. It's really, really hard to pinchflat a good set of UST tires. I'd give my rim a good thorough looking over if I ever did, simply because I'd expect either a large dent or a crack in the rim.SkaredShtles said:
If you are talking about for upfront. I highly recommend WTB Weirwolf Race tires. The older ones say they are 2.5's the new ones say 2.35 (more realistic), it fits nicely on my Talas. Either way they are ~ 700grams I believe non UST (but I use them with some stans) and I dont see myself trying another front tire for a very long time.jacksonpt said:
<shrug> I dunno - I dropped my pressure from my usual 40PSI down to about 30 and pinchflatted. Luckily no dents/cracks. Maybe it was just crappy luck. It was my third ride on tubeless, so I naturally started :mumble:binary visions said:
Ritchey is talking about UST ZMax, so maybe I'll give 'em another try when those are available.........
-S.S.-
My $0.02:
I like tubes because of the minimal hassle. I've had very few pinch flats in the past 2 years (though I do tend to run higher pressures than most), and I don't need a compressor to fix a flat if I do get one. What I learned from Echo, tubeless wheels are a pain to build, and are more costly with the little extras involved like the valve. Then you have the tire costs too.
Echo may have been able to run another lap after his puncture, but he also spent a couple hours the following week trying to fix it when it re-flatted, and had to end up using a tube.
I like tubes because of the minimal hassle. I've had very few pinch flats in the past 2 years (though I do tend to run higher pressures than most), and I don't need a compressor to fix a flat if I do get one. What I learned from Echo, tubeless wheels are a pain to build, and are more costly with the little extras involved like the valve. Then you have the tire costs too.
Echo may have been able to run another lap after his puncture, but he also spent a couple hours the following week trying to fix it when it re-flatted, and had to end up using a tube.
I just bought a set of Vertical Pro 2.3 UST tires for my Yeti Lawwill DH-6 for my trip to Whistler last week. Absolutely LOVE them for XC. :love: Very good grip and roll great. They were awesome to mount as well - I seated both tires in the condo with a mini-pump.jacksonpt said:
For DH, I switched to a set of Michie Comp 16 2.5's. I wanted a heavier, beefier tire for riding the mtn and I didn't want to beat up my new tires doing DH runs. With a mini-pump, I wasn't able to seat the Comp 16's, but fortunately Fanatyk Co. (and their compressed air) was 100 feet away from our condo.
The one time I did try the Conti's on the mtn they weren't so great. They simply don't grip like the Michie's do (despite the Michie's being 1.5 years old) and the lighter casing proved to be the end for the rear tire - I hit a sharp rock the wrong way and cut the tire. I should be able to fix it with some rubber cement and an auto patch kit. We shall see.
I have found it's better to run higher than normal DH pressures with UST tires. At least with the Michelin 2.5" Comp 16. I run the front and rear between 28-30 psi. Any lower and the tire rolls slower, feels vague under hard cornering and offers no advantage whatsoever as far as grip. Because I didn't have a gauge and was going by feel, I didn't have enough pressure and rolled the rear tire on A-Line and burped air out of it. I'm not 100% sure of the pressure I ran the Conti's at, but I'd say closer to 40 psi. Again, there was a noticable reduction in performance with too little air - I added air to the tire on the trail once and it immediately gripped better.
For additional comparison, the fork is a 7" Boxxer. Rims are D3.1's. I weigh about 165 in full gear and have been riding/racing Expert DH since '99. And I am familiar with running lower pressures with DH tires. I ran Intense 909's and had to keep them below 20 psi for them to grip well. However, they also rolled like bricks at that pressure. The Comp 16's at 30 psi roll much smoother and grip better than the 909s did.
Try the Conti's or the Mich. wildgripper UST.Ridemonkey said:
I have had very good luck with both.
Yeah, all Michelin tires should be run at slightly higher than normal pressures. Michelin recommends it and I found the same thing to be true - when I went tubeless I had to experiement with super low pressures just because I could, and found that they actually lost some grip.Ian F said:
I also heard that. Something like, "our tires are designed properly so they don't have to make for design flaws with lower air pressures..."binary visions said:
Hey Ian, where's your Whistler trip report? How ya been?
Well, obviouslyIan F said:I also heard that. Something like, "our tires are designed properly so they don't have to make for design flaws with lower air pressures..."
Actually, I think a lot of it is the fact that they don't make an 1800 gram, quintuple-reinforced, uber-bullet-proof sidewall like Intense, so the tire actually deforms to the terrain without having to run 2.39 psi...
That's good to hear. I should have them out for their first run tomorrow afternoon.Ian F said:
Another tire I want to try, but man them buggers are expensive.-BB- said:
You don't want to hear it but I'm going to say it anyway - go Stan's. I'm going on 3+ years of running NoTubes with my only flat being in Sedona last year, cutting the sidewall on a Python Airlight jumping from a ledge on to some sharp rocks. I put a tube in and continued to ride around Sedona and Flagstaff for the next 3 days. As I've mentioned to you before, NoTubes was invented just up the road from you and we ride the same trails. With the exception of the trip last year, the only tires I've ridden on my XC bike are Mosquito Golds. Stan has been running nothing but Kenda Karmas for the trail and really seems to like them. Some of the others run Continentals with great success.jacksonpt said:
As far as trailside repairs go, should you ever actually have to make one, just open the bead, remove the rimstrip and install a tube. It's just plain easy. The sealant is milky in consistency and will pour right out of your tire and it's all natural "stuff" in there so you're not hurting anything.
By the way, I can't ride this weekend (wife's b-day) but the following two weekends I'd be up for getting together for a ride and letting you try out NoTubes for yourself. We may ride Letchworth the weekend of the 21st if you up for that.
But mmmm... Michelin tire compounds rock...jacksonpt said:
I've been running tubeless (UST and stans) for a few years now - its definately a better system. Last year I had no flats. This year running tubes again I have a flat every other ride again.
This year I built up some new wheels, but didn't go UST cause the rim choices suck (I do think the new arrow system has potential), there aren't too many tire choices, and didn't buy some new stan strips cause they are WAAAAY overpriced. I wish I had bought some the maxxis strips before they discontinued them - that is what a rimstrip system SHOULD cost. There is no way you can justify the Stan's markup not to mention Stan's attitude if you interact with him much...
This year I built up some new wheels, but didn't go UST cause the rim choices suck (I do think the new arrow system has potential), there aren't too many tire choices, and didn't buy some new stan strips cause they are WAAAAY overpriced. I wish I had bought some the maxxis strips before they discontinued them - that is what a rimstrip system SHOULD cost. There is no way you can justify the Stan's markup not to mention Stan's attitude if you interact with him much...
I have been tubeless for a few months and probably woill never go back to tubes. Finding a tire you like might be an issue as you do the trial and error thing. My first set was Continental vertical pros - for me they were excellent as far as grip and confidence but - they wear very quickly. If you so any sorty of mileage on fire roads I would not get them. They are also heavy and have a significant amount of rolling resistance. I still have them and will use them in winter when I primarily ride on forest trails.
My newest set are Kenda Karma 1.95s. They are inexpensive, roll fast and can take pressure to 70 PSI if you are feeling lucky - personally I keep them at 40PSI for everything I ride. I have not tried these on anything wet - I suspect they will not measure up to the Vertical Pros in those conditions. I feel that I have compromised grip but... at the end of an epic I'm thankful for fast rollers.
I got a puncture in the Kenda's the first week out - didn't notice it on the ride and patched it the next day.
I've got over 40 hours on the Kendas and they show no signs of wear, the Continentals showed wear after the first week.
My newest set are Kenda Karma 1.95s. They are inexpensive, roll fast and can take pressure to 70 PSI if you are feeling lucky - personally I keep them at 40PSI for everything I ride. I have not tried these on anything wet - I suspect they will not measure up to the Vertical Pros in those conditions. I feel that I have compromised grip but... at the end of an epic I'm thankful for fast rollers.
I got a puncture in the Kenda's the first week out - didn't notice it on the ride and patched it the next day.
I've got over 40 hours on the Kendas and they show no signs of wear, the Continentals showed wear after the first week.
Thanks for all the info everyone.
At this point, I think I'm going to stick with tubes. The predominant benefit to tubeless is clearly the lack of flats. Since that's not an issue for me, it's not really worth the extra cash. Plus, I did some quick looking, and it seems that the only UST rim that would be a good rim for me is the Mavic XM819 - not exactly a lot of choice in the all-mountain UST category.
I'm hoping to build up a hard tail next summer with most of the parts off my old bike. If i do, I'll look into tubeless then, and move my current tubed wheelset to the hardtail.
At this point, I think I'm going to stick with tubes. The predominant benefit to tubeless is clearly the lack of flats. Since that's not an issue for me, it's not really worth the extra cash. Plus, I did some quick looking, and it seems that the only UST rim that would be a good rim for me is the Mavic XM819 - not exactly a lot of choice in the all-mountain UST category.
I'm hoping to build up a hard tail next summer with most of the parts off my old bike. If i do, I'll look into tubeless then, and move my current tubed wheelset to the hardtail.