[Jm_]

Shim preload adjusters are for HSC. The needle bleed adjusters are for LSC. They're both as real as steel, but do different things.

I find the bleed adjusters to be more useful for myself. I also think most riders are best off with only external low speed damping adjustments, with high speed/shim preload adjustments as an internal adjust/revalve feature.

I think there's a range where the preload can be useful, it's just a very small range, to really effect the proper change, a re-valve is necessary. The stack should be tuned correctly to start, then play with preload. You could though just build in as many circuits as you want, the valving would get more and more complex, but you could have multiple mid-valves and adjustments, blah blah, it would get exponentially complex and past the point of benefit quickly most likely.

Magnets.

 

[kidwoo]

Shim preload adjusters are for HSC. The needle bleed adjusters are for LSC. They're both as real as steel, but do different things.

Yeah yeah. It's just in what should be a transition it feels like they're using quarters for shims. It never feels like you're really blowing off the LSC on those things to me. So backing off the shim stack would be nice.

Or at least using more worn out quarters.

 

[dcamp29]

Responses inside:

-Make the air valve replaceable, else it's going to bite you guys down the road.
Why- you are worried about them breaking off?
-Countermeasure is dumb, pls remove.
can't do that
-Increase neg air volume.
maybe
-Make air sleeve kits cheaper, they are retardedly expensive. Also please tell the Taiwan peeps to include the main air can o-ring (the one that really seals the air can to the eyelet) in the kit.
like a new air can? or just the seal kit? the seal kit is cheap in USA?
-WHY 7wt? Should have gone with 3wt, meh.
Noise
-Get rid of the RL dish design, sucks.
yes

Other than that, they seem to be working well and we haven't seen weird shit in our service center yet.

I don't think you'll ever see the preload spring on a shim-stack for HSC. Doesn't seem to ever work quite right- to change HSC you'll need to re-shim RS product. Sorry.

I think 3 position is stupid- more stuff is going to 2 position with open adjustment like the superdeluxe rct

 

['size]

 

[mtg]

I don't think you'll ever see the preload spring on a shim-stack for HSC. Doesn't seem to ever work quite right- to change HSC you'll need to re-shim RS product. Sorry.

Thank you.

 

[Udi]

Okay wow.
Let's not let the loss of some key members here on RM drive us into the stone age of compression damping. The purpose and usefulness of a HS preload adjuster in compression has been discussed at depth before, particularly in the pre-Vorsprung Steve era.

There is value to having an external HSC adjuster that preloads the outer shim / larger shims of the compression stack. The benefit is allowing us to generate a digression knee in the compression curve (by preloading the larger shims), which from a practical standpoint means that we can run less LS damping (i.e. more LS port area open) for a given level of support in the shaft speed range where it's actually needed. This means better sensitivity, less bump transfer to the rider and better traction while maintaining support.

Adding shims to a conventional compression shimstack does NOT achieve this goal, because the curve (w.r.t shaft velocity) still remains relatively linear, unless you implement either a ring shim arrangement or a dished compression piston. Many products without a HS adjuster *do* do this, however, rarely does anyone nail the curve - particularly for every rider (but often even for any rider). "Fine tuning" the curve then involves choosing different sets of ring shims, not an easy task, so an external HS preload adjustment with sufficient range is far more useful.

Of course there's the caveat that not everyone knows what to do with the adjusters and can end up worse off, but really, this is the DH forum and I presume at least some members are still concerned with ultimate descending performance. My personal take is that for applications including uphill, a lockout/firming lever (if needed) should be implemented alongside a conventional and uncompromised LS/HS adjuster.

With that said, there have been many dampers in the past that implement this system poorly. Anyone can build a damper with two compression adjusters, but plenty of brands make a mess of having those two dials adjust in a correct or useful range. I've found both BOS and RS to do a terrible job of this in the past. Fox did an excellent job in their RC2 (fork) and final RC4 (shock) dampers. Sadly in the new X2 products not so much.

But "often done poorly" doesn't mean "let's all switch to a 2/3 position compromise adjuster".
As for RS, I'll side with atrokz on this one and let guys like tacubaya/mtg make the suggestions, since decisions will affect them.

 

[mtg]

@Udi
There are really two camps of riders being discussed here. And, I'm in no way trying to regress suspension performance. It's the opposite.

What I was talking about is better for 90%+ of mountain bikers. Most high speed damping adjustments are marketing gimmicks, and the vast majority of riders would have a better performing bike sans HSC and HSR adjusters, and instead have a more sorted shim stack with only bleed adjusters. That's where I think Rockshox has done a good job. They ditched the old 4 way adjust damper and went to a more sorted 2 way adjustable unit, and it's superior.

Now, you and @kidwoo are certainly exceptions to that rule. You guys are the folks that are at home revalving a shim stack to tailor it to you. Or, if you want the best damper with everything externally adjusted, open your wallet, because here is your solution:

 

[kidwoo]

I just want RS base valve compression tunes to not suck and if they do (they do) then let some adjustment in there. That's all I was suggesting.

I will say the HS/LS damper interaction on one of the 11-6 shocks I've ridden was the awesomestest thing ever. Made a squishy bike jump and pump while still allowing the plow.

 

[tacubaya]

Responses inside:

-Make the air valve replaceable, else it's going to bite you guys down the road.
Why- you are worried about them breaking off?
Yes I've seen them get damaged.

-Countermeasure is dumb, pls remove.
can't do that
Lol.

-Increase neg air volume.
maybe
Moaaaar neg volume pls.

-Make air sleeve kits cheaper, they are retardedly expensive. Also please tell the Taiwan peeps to include the main air can o-ring (the one that really seals the air can to the eyelet) in the kit.
like a new air can? or just the seal kit? the seal kit is cheap in USA?
Seal kit. It's everything but cheap, MSRP of a DebonAir basic service kit is $17, Deluxe/Super Deluxe kit is $43. WTF.

-WHY 7wt? Should have gone with 3wt, meh.
Noise
Hahahahahaha.

-Get rid of the RL dish design, sucks.
yes
Gracias.

 

[dcamp29]

-Make the air valve replaceable, else it's going to bite you guys down the road.
Why- you are worried about them breaking off?
Yes I've seen them get damaged.
we see a few- mostly OEM's packaging them poorly and front wheel disc rotor chops it off, but it eliminates some other issues with the thread-in valves.

-Countermeasure is dumb, pls remove.
can't do that
Lol.

-Increase neg air volume.
maybe
Moaaaar neg volume pls.

-Make air sleeve kits cheaper, they are retardedly expensive. Also please tell the Taiwan peeps to include the main air can o-ring (the one that really seals the air can to the eyelet) in the kit.
like a new air can? or just the seal kit? the seal kit is cheap in USA?
Seal kit. It's everything but cheap, MSRP of a DebonAir basic service kit is $17, Deluxe/Super Deluxe kit is $43. WTF.
That's messed up. I'll ask aftermarket why.

-WHY 7wt? Should have gone with 3wt, meh.
Noise
Hahahahahaha.
???

-Get rid of the RL dish design, sucks.
yes
Gracias.

 

[kidwoo]

So 3w oil is noisy? Like literally it's the audio that made you guys not use it?

also hahahahhahaha then