Quantcast

Demo's not for DH?

miuan

Monkey
Jan 12, 2007
396
0
Bratislava, Slovakia
Since Demo came out, people seemed to have been divided into two groups. Those who rode Demos and liked them, and those who didn't ride them and regarded these either huck or freeride bikes (e.g. not DH worthy).

Let's face it. No one I ever knew was complaining about the ride quality of these frames, provided they rode the correct size. Having test ridden one, I have to confirm that for its high speed stability (slack, long), the chassis was quite lively and held the lines well. I mean yeah, for most of us, the small size is long enough and a large is probably going to be much too long for anyone but the tallest, but then again it's a DH frame. The seat is also pitched more forward which requires use of a layback post. But apart from this, and considering it's much cheaper than comparable boutique frames, why does the majority seem to mistrust the Demos by default?

This thread has nothing to do with Sam's team riding for Specialized. There's been a thread or two discussing this recently on RM. While I believe Sam can choose any sponsor he points at, and he is more than capable of telling a good frame from the average, he needs to earn money in the first place, so his choice is not relevant.
 

stumpjump

Monkey
Sep 14, 2007
674
0
DC
People love to complain, I've ridden many DH bikes in the past few years and I definitely regard Demo's as a very decent DH rig. Sure there are better out there in the opinions of many, but they are just that...opinions. People are always going to hate on brands just because.

It's better just to find what you like and what you feel good on and not give a sh1T what all the haters say.
 

jackalope

Mental acuity - 1%
Jan 9, 2004
6,079
2,588
in a single wide, cooking meth...
Personally, I think the Demo 8's are (and have been) fine DH frames. I think maybe the heft and geo of the original Demo 9 left many people with the impression that "Demos" aren't DH frames, but burly huck frames instead. The Demo 8's that I have ridden have been appropriately set up for DH and I doubt they would hold a rider of my caliber back. Some riders complained of short chain stays, loose shock bushings, and maybe some of the early 8's were a little heavier than some other company's DH offerings. I also recall that some 8's had cracking issues, but I believe Spesh took care of this as they usually do. In fact, I like that fact that Spesh has been constantly changing the Demo 8's to match what (most) riders want (e.g. improved axel path, less weight, better geo, etc...)

I rode one this past year at Whistler for a few days, and it was fine for me. I *prefer* my V-10, but the parts spec has a lot to do with that. IMO, a Demo 8 is a solid DH frame. I mean, Kidwoo rocks one, so how bad could it be? :)
 

demo 9

Turbo Monkey
Jan 31, 2007
5,911
45
north jersey
I have the original demo 9. (ive owned 2 of them) right now its set up for DH race. its VERY stable and it just plows anything. the downside is when u get off ur line it really bogs down. strait edge hits are terrible. i do like how it corners alot though. another thing that gets overlooked i think is there the weight is. all the weight is behind u and super low on the bike. that has got to be worth something.

*i do not like more than the yeti*
*yeti rides better*
*i would sell the yeti before the demo 9*



*fyi ive ridden this bike for 3 years now and nothing brakes-it wont die
 

BigHitComp04

Monkey
Jun 20, 2005
587
2
Morgantown, WV
Also on my second Demo. Love it for racing DH (thats mainly what i use it for). Will probably get a 2010 Demo when they come out. Maybe Sam and Brendan winning on them will change peoples minds. And yes...they will win some... :)
 

jackalope

Mental acuity - 1%
Jan 9, 2004
6,079
2,588
in a single wide, cooking meth...
Heckled, my guess is that some feel that bikes with a forward moving axel path do not take square edged hits well. If you really look at a long travel FSR design, the whole "vertical axel path" claim seems like typical marketing fluff (e.g. SC's claimed "S" shaped axel path, which somehow made it better than baby Jesus). It may be vertical for a nanometer or 2, but not enough to matter IMO (btw, my opinion is basically worthless). I would think a Demo's axel path is a lot closer to a low forward like a DHR rather than a Orange 224 or Yeti 303. However, if I am not mistaken, Spesh has massaged the Demo 8 linkage to get a "better" axel path for square edged hits.

All that said, I don't know how much of that matters to most riders. If the shock is set up properly, I think they're OK on square-edged hits. Like a lot of monkeys, I feel that a comfortable geo/fit & a well functioning fork mean more than rear suspension design.
 
Last edited:

DirtMcGirk

<b>WAY</b> Dumber than N8 (to the power of ten alm
Feb 21, 2008
6,417
1
Oz
My first year coming back to racing (2006) after a long hiatus in the south I raced a Demo 9.

I rode that thing into the ground.

My observations went like this:
- Great once you got it up to speed.
- The spec from Specialized was in need of some revision.
- Slow is not a speed that bikes like.
- Heavy is a word you could use, but with a few revisions it was reasonable.
- Changing the HA on that bike to something a bit more steep was a bad, bad idea.
 

demo 9

Turbo Monkey
Jan 31, 2007
5,911
45
north jersey
how? - please explain...
its a straight and foward wheelpath. it basically "hangs up" if u smash a square rock or a waterbar. (compared to my 303, jedi, and a sunday i rode)i like it alot but i feel that when i smashed a huge rock it really slowed down. (could weight factor in?) my 303 seems to just roll over it better and faster. the advantage to a foward/vert wheel path is that it corners great and it jumps fantastic.
 

Heckled

Chimp
Feb 1, 2006
19
0
its a straight and foward wheelpath. it basically "hangs up" if u smash a square rock or a waterbar. (compared to my 303, jedi, and a sunday i rode)i like it alot but i feel that when i smashed a huge rock it really slowed down. (could weight factor in?) my 303 seems to just roll over it better and faster. the advantage to a foward/vert wheel path is that it corners great and it jumps fantastic.
Try more high speed compression and less bottom out resistance on your shock - the older demo's had much more ramp on the leverage than the new ones - this is virtually the only difference between the current demo 8 and the old 9 (+ a few bags of sugar!).
 

jackalope

Mental acuity - 1%
Jan 9, 2004
6,079
2,588
in a single wide, cooking meth...
djamgils,

Just to satisfy my own curiosity, how would properly read your graph? B/c I am dumb and drink too much, I was assuming you would really start reading the graph at the sag point (i.e. say 30% sag, or roughy 60 mm or so). Thus, the Demo would start getting into a forward axel path pretty quickly compared to the Banshee or 303, which don't get into a forward path until much later in the travel.

Is that right, or should I forget about it and continue to drink crappy beer and mumble "MOAR SHIMZ" to basically any question?
 

NoUseForAName

Monkey
Mar 26, 2008
481
0
Comparing with the Banshee is a little rough i think - isn't that bike designed to have a super duper rearward axle path?
How does the Demo compare with Morewood,
dirtmag said:
Orange 224 THE BESTEST DH BIKEZ EVAR
or maybe the new commencal?
 

DirtMcGirk

<b>WAY</b> Dumber than N8 (to the power of ten alm
Feb 21, 2008
6,417
1
Oz
I rode a Morewood for a year
Morewood beat it hands down every day of the week.

Lighter, simpler, more lively ride.
However, it had the same problem with the squared off hits.

Now my 303 on the other hand? Its like pure sex on silk.
 

djamgils

Monkey
Aug 31, 2007
349
0
Holland
The commencal is very similar to the banshee legend when looking at axle path altough the banshee is a bit more rearward in the first part and a bit more forward in the second part.
And just to point out, Linkage is far from accurate most of the times.



Please correct me if I have something wrong in the following.
The idea behind a rearward axle path is that the force of the obstacle is pointed towards the axle from the point of contact. So hucking would be comfortable with a vertical axle path and a 5inch high rock would be more comfortable with a rearward axle path.
When you roll over and go trough your travel the force will be pointed more and more vertically so it isnt necesarry to have a extremely rearward axle path trough the entire travel. And with a extremely rearward axle path you would also have a lot of chain stretch/pedal kickback.
But I must say, I have a socom with a axle path that is roughly comparable to a demo but I never experienced it hanging up on square edges. But I also never ridden a bike with a extreme rearward axle path so maybe I just cant feel it because I dont know of the difference.
 
Last edited:

miuan

Monkey
Jan 12, 2007
396
0
Bratislava, Slovakia
I rode a Morewood for a year
Morewood beat it hands down every day of the week.

Lighter, simpler, more lively ride.
However, it had the same problem with the squared off hits.

Now my 303 on the other hand? Its like pure sex on silk.
Another evidence than the actual ride performance is mostly up to the shock, not the frame. If the axes on the graph had the same scale, one could barely see a difference between most axle paths. A strongly rearward axle path is also not desirable for several reasons. First, wheelbase in tight berms/g-outs when your suspension squats should be shorter, not longer. Second, to keep high speed traction, you want your suspension to rebound fast and bite into terrain, which is easier achieved on a forward axle path bike. Coming off that square edge on a rearward pivot, you are losing traction for a longer time period as the wheel lands farther behind the obstacle.

DirtMcGirk: What size Demo/Izimu did you ride? A Large Izimu is just a couple mm longer than a small Demo, hence the "playfulness" of a short bike.
 

boogenman

Turbo Monkey
Nov 3, 2004
3,438
159
BUFFALO
Specilized Sucks

Sam Hill is a tool

Specialized likes to screw people

Specialized likes to practice POOR business ethics

Sam Hill rides for specailized for one reason only:


The Demo is a turd

This thread is retarded

Sam Hill can ride any bike and do well

Specialized likes Himm

Sam Hill is going to sell lots of Dh bikes for Specialized

Specialized will now be able to pay off Ned's plastic surgery


to:
 

schwaaa31

Monkey
Jul 30, 2002
893
378
Clinton Massachusetts
Specilized Sucks

Sam Hill is a tool

Specialized likes to screw people

Specialized likes to practice POOR business ethics

Sam Hill rides for specailized for one reason only:


The Demo is a turd

This thread is retarded

Sam Hill can ride any bike and do well

Specialized likes Himm

Sam Hill is going to sell lots of Dh bikes for Specialized

Specialized will now be able to pay off Ned's plastic surgery

to:
Sh!t. Where were you 2 months a go when I ordered mine? Now I have to sell it. Crap on a stick.
 

Patan-DH

Monkey
Jun 9, 2007
458
0
Patagonia
I remember that the FSR design was made arround seat-stay brakes back in the day, and reason of the chainstay pivot close to the dropout, Imao is better that the chainstay or lower link to be as small as possible and as short as possible to avoid FLEX.
 

Old_Sckool

Monkey
Jun 5, 2007
187
0
Another evidence than the actual ride performance is mostly up to the shock, not the frame. If the axes on the graph had the same scale, one could barely see a difference between most axle paths. A strongly rearward axle path is also not desirable for several reasons. First, wheelbase in tight berms/g-outs when your suspension squats should be shorter, not longer. Second, to keep high speed traction, you want your suspension to rebound fast and bite into terrain, which is easier achieved on a forward axle path bike. Coming off that square edge on a rearward pivot, you are losing traction for a longer time period as the wheel lands farther behind the obstacle.

DirtMcGirk: What size Demo/Izimu did you ride? A Large Izimu is just a couple mm longer than a small Demo, hence the "playfulness" of a short bike.
Excellent points overall, but let me play Devils advocate for a moment.

Both designs have desirable and undesirable traits. You pretty much listed the desirable traits of a vert or forward path axle and seem to be making the point that it is better then a rearward based on these traits.

The reality is you have to decide how you want your bike to ride and choose the one that fits your style and terrain.

All your points are valid. But I think too few people look at the bike as a whole.

Take for example the Brooklyn Race Link. There is a lot of talk about it's "dated" geometry. But there were practical reasons for most of it geo. The Link has nearly 3" of "true" rearward axle path. Keeping the HA steeper helps to keep the bike nimble in the twistys, especially since the bike probably won't be deep in its travel. The extending wheelbase keeps the bike stable on big hits, even though the HA isn't as slack as some now want. Not everyone will agree with this, but for some reason the bike is great on really steep tech, despite the HA. This might just be me, cause I'm tall and have a long torso, so I can easily get way back over the rear, which also helps to sink the bike more into it's travel.

I guess my point is.....Looking at things like axle path, BB height, HA, really don't mean a lot, unless you consider them as a whole, any single trait isn't beneficial, unless they work together to compliment each other.