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Discussion in 'Downhill & Freeride' started by Mo(n)arch, Feb 20, 2015.
or swap it for a bong
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or at least keep it out of sight in your VPP shed
I should get me a VPP bong.
If I remember right, it has a certain VPP leverage curve?
I've covered that in post #45 here, there are some relevant posts before and after that too.
Screw the corset, I want to know more about "Vorsprung Suspension's Measuring Jig"
Actually I'd love to see a nomad with a debonair vs. Fox with corset or the new fox air sleeve mapped out on whatever you're adding to the linkage app.
Damn, I should have ordered one when I first read this post because now they are out of stock until the end of the month.
We'll see. I haven't really ridden the bike all that much but enough to know that despite Craig trying to work his magic, still has issues with the initial and mid strokes. Craig had warned me that the frame had a funny leverage. This sleeve looks like it might be able to address those issues...hopefully.
should have called it the wizard's sleeve
glad to see such success for a monkey member.
Hey guys, Steve here - appreciate the coverage and the discussion. We're stoked about the reception the Corset has had, to say the least!
We've had so many questions about "will this work on my particular frame" that it seemed more efficient to write a small novel on how the Corset interacts with the various linkage types out there than to try to answer each question individually. It's a big, in-depth tech post that's arguably a touch large to reproduce here, but if you're interested in reading it the link is here - How Will The Corset Work With My Frame? I've also made an effort to be as frank as possible about what the Corset can and can't do for you.
If you're not sure exactly what kind of leverage rate your frame runs, check out Antonio Osuna's Linkage Design blog here - http://linkagedesign.blogspot.com - he has quite a range of frames on there with a some good technical discussion. Note that while not all the leverage rate curves in there are 100% precise, Osuna makes an effort to make them as accurate as possible, and for the purposes of explaining how they interact with the Corset it's more than enough. Keep in mind that a leverage rate change of less than about 8% across the entirety of the travel is basically considered linear (while an 8% change across 20% of the travel would be quite substantial!), so while some bikes like the SB66 look like they have a really funky leverage rate curve, in actual fact it only varies by a couple of percent.
As far as shipping times - yep, we're way behind. Really sorry for the delays to all the guys who have already ordered, we didn't anticipate this volume nor rate of sales, as a result we blew through our inventory of a lot of stuff. Currently we're waiting on seals to arrive back in stock from our vendors, which will be later this week. Once we have those, we'll be shipping like madmen. Apologies once again, nobody wants to wait this long for something they've paid for. Sold-out sizes should be back in stock in roughly 4 weeks.
Any other questions, please feel free to hit me up on steve at vorsprungsuspension dot com.
How does it work on a Klein Mantra?
No, only the Bow-Ti
Basically the end result of putting a Corset on a Mantra is that your 60 yr old girlfriend will run far too much sag (because let's face it, you're riding something older than you probably should be).
that was a nice dump you laid on vpp bikes.....
I'm curious why VPP makers would make the shock rate curve like that. There has to be a reason behind it?!
geometry is a bitch. ?Unless you drive the shock from the bottom you are stuck with it. Ahh vpp, seems like vpp owners are pigs wallowing in shit.
Looking at the blog post I think its helping me understand what you are trying to do. Its basically making the spring more neutral so you can better work with sag, volume reducers and damping setup. So @Steve M I presume you will have to make changes in your compression damping setup?
I got mine yesterday and it's a nice little piece of kit for sure. Unfortunately they sent me the wrong size... ah well. I'll just have to swap it. I'm tempting to just drive up to Whistler for an afternoon and swap it in person. I can't wait to try it out.
How about "push-sprung" or "vor-ush"?
Got it mounted and one ride in today.
1) Showed up in a plastic bag with one layer of bubble wrap and the receipt jammed inside the sleeve. For $150 it would be nice for it to show up in a box, and maybe even some instructions or notes?
2) Install was good, ano on the threads got a bit rough so I put some grease on to prevent full on seize mode. I service the stock air sleeve often, and 5 years later the threads are still perfect. But no biggie...
3) Had to add almost 100 psi over previous pressure to get same sag. Kinda sketchy running 300 psi (I weigh 175 lbs), but it works so far. I don't know what pressure they are rated to, but seems like big guys will be 350+ psi!
4) The ride-> Very plush off the top, coil like for sure. Actually feels better than some coil shocks I have used on this bike. Much more controlled mid stroke, stays up in the travel and does not get bogged down and harsh in the chunder. Definitely feels smooth and controlled, with an ultra plush top end and no harsh bottom (with 30+% sag).
5) For Speshy (Horst style) bikes this is a huge improvement over stock Fox can for sure! It is on Enduro now, but I have a Stumpy Evo to try on as well. Figure it will work just fine there also....
So far very impressed, really is a nice piece of work. I like how the positive/negative pressure is equalized, this thing has a massive air volume and looks pretty mean.
Good job Canada!
Great review! This is just what I needed. I ordered one without any reviews available for my Enduro. Based on the ones available now I'm convinced that I have made the right decision. And seeing it on your bike I'm relieved that it'll fit the frame without any issues. (I heard Ti springs rub on Enduros so I was worried) May I ask what size frame is yours?
That is a medium frame. I had a Ti spring rub in small Enduro, but this can clears!
However, when I checked pressure this morning it was 220 psi, down from 300 the day before.....
Where is that review Udi? Anyone else losing pressure?
That just seems like it shouldn't be.
Corset pressure loss update:
Pulled the sleeve off to check o-ring in the eyelet and it did the whole stuck-down-negative-spring-problem thing when I let the air out.
Blew the can off on removal and took a backing ring with it.
There is now a nice chunk missing from the quad seal which suspiciously matches the size of the transfer ports in the sleeve. I am sure the seal was good on initial installation. Running my finger over the sleeve ports they do seem quite sharp. I don't know if this happened while riding, or when the can blew off. In any case something is wrong.
Yes I have some emails in to Steve, but no reply yet.
** Reply from Vorsprung, possible assembly issue. Replacement parts on the way.
Soooooo, maybe it was not losing pressure. but instead leaking air from positive to negative chamber.
Got a fresh seal kit from the LBS and going round two tonight.
Really hope this thing works out, it feels awesome when it holds air correctly!
How to service via Fox dude
As per our emails, and more for the reference of anyone else reading this - the quad ring seal has almost certainly been damaged when the can was removed. Those ports don't have the piston sliding over them during use, only during installation/removal (same as Fox XV system), and with no pressure on the seal you'd have to be very unlucky to catch the seal hard enough to do that during installation. It is possible that o-rings were damaged during installation and that the sleeve isn't holding air as a result, or that the pressure the shock has been set at initially has released a substantial amount of pressure into the negative chamber as it equalises initially (this can be quite a bit of pressure - 20% or more). Either way, we've got a new air sleeve seal kit & o-ring kit en route to you.
It's also necessary to ensure the can equalises properly when removing, which means lowering pressure slowly rather than just pressing the valve core and dumping all the air. You will notice that when the sleeve is first installed, when you first pump it up, it will top out, and you have to compress it a few times (or very very slowly) for the positive and negative chambers to fully equalise The equalisation port between pos/neg chamber is specifically designed to slow the rate of air transfer so that you don't get that dead spot and the resulting annoying notch in the travel that pretty well every other air shock has. If the shock becomes stuck down, it's because air was released fast enough for it to move past the equalisation point without fully equalising air pressure between pos/neg chambers. I've updated the installation instructions to include all this information - sorry it wasn't made clear originally, that's my fault.
With the small eyelet cans I would also recommend experimenting with volume spacers to increase end stroke ramp up, otherwise you may find the end stroke a bit too easy to get through and/or end up running very high pressures. Our volume spacer kits are in production at the moment and should be available shortly, otherwise the stock Fox ones will work fine with this.
I think you're mistaken on how the equalization process works. When you pressurize the positive air chamber, the air will stay there until you push down on the shock to equalize the negative air chamber. So initially, you might have put in 300psi, but once you sat down and equalized the two chambers, the resulting PSI was around 220psi. I also say around 220psi because lots of people have a hard time understanding how pressure is lost when you attach a shock pump.
And like Steve said, the resulting "bang" removal of the air can likely damaged your seals.
Lastly, if the Vorsprung can is anything like the Fox and Debonair cans, the sag point is now set to 30% (In the Debonair's case) regardless of the PSI put in the shock. The equalization process requires this. So, in theory, whether you have 200 or 300psi in the shock, it will still sag at 30% but you might have a hard time achieving full travel with 300psi.
On my bikes, I've seen differences of 25-30psi between regular cans and these new cans in order to get that mid stroke and end stroke support, an increase not possible before due to compromising the small bump performance with higher pressures.
You are likely correct regarding the equalisation of pressures after initially pumping the shock up, especially once you factor in reconnecting the pump to check pressure the 2nd time.
As far as the sag point however - what you're saying is partly correct in that the Corset's sag is less sensitive to air pressure than the stock sleeves, but it isn't a fixed amount regardless of pressure. The difference is that with the Corset, sag is quite linearly (inversely) proportional to pressure, whereas the Fox sleeves are highly nonlinear in that respect. The Debonair's function is similar to the Corset in this regard.
I am quite aware of how the negative chamber pressurizes, I equalize every 100 psi or so. Pumping it straight to 300psi makes it damn near impossible to push to the sag (equalization) point without any negative spring helping.
So anyway, look at this from Vorsprung before you install!
It was not available when I got mine so I was inadvertently turning the outer sleeve to try and tighten the can into the shock eyelet. O-rings between the sleeves got a bit buggered which is why the pressure was leaking into the negative chamber.
I pulled the outer sleeve, checked and re-greased o-rings and she seems to be working correctly now.
Buuut, I am still at 300+ psi with decent sag. It feels quite good but I can hit bottom a little easy (like Steve mentioned) and will play with vol spacers to fine tune this. My pump only goes to 300, so I am currently at 300psi + 12 strokes!
This sleeve really feels like a coil on this bike (I have tried RC4, and X-Fusion coils on this frame), with the same "kinda easy to bottom but feels pretty good" action.
Difference with this is I can tune with vol spacers to more effectively change bottom out ramp (I hope) than with IFP pressure/volume on a coil shock.
Coils felt really good for 80% of the travel, but would always bottom too easy (because the frame is designed for an air shock).
Anyway, sleeve seems to be performing correctly now with proper pos/neg pressures and no pressure loss.
Much thanks to Steve M for the support!
Let me know what you think when you try it out on the Stumpy EVO. I was going to get a Monarch soon, but this may be a good alternative.
They are quite different (monarch and this v-sprung can+fox). The monarch works really well and has a good spring curve for FSR bikes. I have run it on the Enduro in the past.
The corset can feels more like a coil shock, more plush and sensitive than a monarch. Monarch feels muted and controlled (but works well), corset is playful and responsive and smooooooth.
Corset+Enduro ride update:
Pressures are all holding where they should be. Adding vol spacer today.
Noticed how much better the bike climbs tech stuff yesterday. Just so plush it has traction everywhere, and really not any more bob/squat than before.
Pedals surprisingly well, kills the DH and makes my formerly adequate fork feel like a turd!
Glad to hear it's sorted and working well! I think you'll like it even more with a volume spacer in there too
Ordered mine. SB66 improvement. Very curious to see if I have the skill to feel the difference.
Dans bike, with the new sleeve
Looks like its in two pieces? Several tuning options?
I think the Vorsprung Corset looks better not that I look much on my rear shock.
bike: YETI SB66c
Shock: FOX Float X
What I liked about the original shock:
really active on everything. Works great.
Pedals great even with open (D on CTD)
What I didn’t like on the original shock
bottoming too easy.
got the air sleeve in a plastic bag...(WTF)
install was easy.
got the air pressure to the right SAG, cycle it few times and add air. And set SAG again
after riding around my house a bit, got the sag to too much, and added air again.
The negative chamber is big, so it takes some time to equalize.
Rode my bike this weekend on many trails.
First impression was that the 30% of the travel become really soft and the bike had more traction, in turns and all.
The end stroke is great too. Because the bike is not bottoming.
But, the rest of travel, the middle of it, changed a lot from what I liked about it,
Now its harsh, and feel a bit harder an rocks and roots.
I wonder if the negative chamber can be modified to be smaller,
Then it will need less air pressure, and it will work good on small bumps, and wont loos its middle travel.
The end travel can be progressive with bigger volume spacer of course
What do you think?
did you check the ones you got?
Steve is running his Corset with about 31% sag .
for me its too much....
works really nice on my bronson. supple & grippy. pulled the volume reducer as per steve's suggestion. got mine set up on the soft side which seems to work well with the suspension kinematics / air spring curve (ie, doesn't wallow, nor bottom perceptively despite a plush setup). great stuff; highly recommended.
saruti, it sounds like you want the old can, with volume reducers...
Or he might need the shock re-tuned for the new can, or try running 30-33% sag.