DH/FR/Trail bike

WheelieMan · Aug 9, 2005

Kanter said:
I want a bike I can DH/FR/trail ride. It must have 2 rings and a front derailer and be reasonably priced.

I really love my 02.5 Fly. It is getting older and I am thinking of getting a new frame. I really want a 4 bar but NO Specialized.

I like the Knolly Vtach and the 06 Highline but what else is there in a 4 bar. I guess the Divinci. What else? The Knolly is a little spendy and when the hell is the Highline going to come out.

I don't mind the Fly, being a single pivot with a floater, but I wana try a 4 bar. Any thoughts?

How is a "4 bar" going to perform any better than your single-pivot Fly? Unless there is anything wrong with it, why replace it?

kidwoo · Aug 9, 2005

Kanter said:
The 4 bar should perform better than my single pivot Fly. Plus my Fly is getting a little old. I just want something new.

Check my signature. Tell me your desires and your reservations.

WheelieMan · Aug 9, 2005

Kanter said:
The 4 bar should perform better than my single pivot Fly. Plus my Fly is getting a little old. I just want something new.

How will it perform better? A single-pivot with a floater is a pretty darn good setup.

Brian HCM#1 · Aug 9, 2005

Yep, Kanter you too can have an official Kidwoo signature series frame :thumb:

kidwoo · Aug 9, 2005

WheelieMan said:
How will it perform better? A single-pivot with a floater is a pretty darn good setup.

Pure and simple.......climbing. That's why I got the norco. That's why I've been on fsr frames for xc bikes for years. The only other systems that have felt as good to me climbing up rocks is the dw link and some of the vpp frames (not blurs though).

Regardless of what specialized would have you believe, the rear end on most fsr bikes is pretty foward arcing. It sounds stupid but this really does help the wheel scoot over things better on climbing. There's also a bit of squat which helps compress the rear end making it more sensitive to bumps at really slow speeds. I'm all about the fsr but for the exact opposite reasons specialized will tell you.

kidwoo · Aug 9, 2005

Brian HCM#1 said:
Yep, Kanter you too can have an official Kidwoo signature series frame

I haven't ridden this thing enough to be signature series. It still smells like paint and grease.

WheelieMan · Aug 9, 2005

kidwoo said:
Pure and simple.......climbing. That's why I got the norco. That's why I've been on fsr frames for xc bikes for years. The only other systems that have felt as good to me climbing up rocks is the dw link and some of the vpp frames (not blurs though).

Regardless of what specialized would have you believe, the rear end on most fsr bikes is pretty foward arcing. It sounds stupid but this really does help the wheel scoot over things better on climbing. There's also a bit of squat which helps compress the rear end making it more sensitive to bumps at really slow speeds. I'm all about the fsr but for the exact opposite reasons specialized will tell you.

Nah, I don't believe that horst-link bikes climb any better than single-pivots, that's a bunch of BS. Believe it or not, the pivot placement on the Fly is not that different from the Norco.

buildyourown · Aug 9, 2005

According to Turner, production has begun on the Highline. When they will be available, who knows.

How about a 6 pack. A lot more trail bike than DH but they are plenty capable and can be built up pretty light.

kidwoo · Aug 9, 2005

WheelieMan said:
Nah, I don't believe that horst-link bikes climb any better than single-pivots, that's a bunch of BS. Believe it or not, the pivot placement on the Fly is not that different from the Norco.

Dude the main pivot on my norco is in the exact same spot as the fly......and they climb completely differently. I rode 2 different flys on an xc ride outside of portland because I wanted one......right before I bought the norco.

How many fsrs have you owned as xc/climbing bikes? Trust me, I'd much rather deal with a stiffer simpler single pivot..... and on my DH bike, I do.....but on the upside....there is a difference.

WheelieMan · Aug 9, 2005

kidwoo said:
Dude the main pivot on my norco is in the exact same spot as the fly......and they climb completely differently. I rode 2 different flys on an xc ride outside of portland because I wanted one......right before I bought the norco.

How many fsrs have you owned as xc/climbing bikes? Trust me, I'd much rather deal with a stiffer simpler single pivot..... and on my DH bike, I do.....but on the upside....there is a difference.

Hmm, must be the shock setup. If the pivot is in roughly same spot (FSR has a virtual pivot so of course it won't stay in the same spot the whole time) then they shouldn't pedal very differently.

kidwoo · Aug 9, 2005

buildyourown said:
According to Turner, production has begun on the Highline. When they will be available, who knows.
.

Plus you'll get the added benefit of letting your friends ride underneath you with the 15" bottom bracket.

That's the ONLY thing keeping me from sitting on my hands waiting for that frame.

oly · Aug 9, 2005

kidwoo said:
Plus you'll get the added benefit of letting your friends ride underneath you with the 15" bottom bracket.

That's the ONLY thing keeping me from sitting on my hands waiting for that frame.

HAHA., just wait till high BB's come back into fad.

kidwoo · Aug 9, 2005

WheelieMan said:
Hmm, must be the shock setup. If the pivot is in roughly same spot (FSR has a virtual pivot so of course it won't stay in the same spot the whole time) then they shouldn't pedal very differently.

I know how to set up bikes. It's not the shocks. It's also not every FSR....turners feel nothing like specialized bikes which feel kind of like titus bikes which are a little different than the old intense bikes which are almost like norcos....cept less progressive.

Truth be told, they climb better because the ones I like behave more like a single pivot than a single pivot can...because the instant center is some whacked out spot that would make a very inconvenient frame design. You and I both know that little horst link barely moves at all.....but it does change the virtual pivot location(s).

Quit sitting on your high horse and open yourself to a little discussion. I'm probably up there with some of the most anal people you will ever meet when it comes to bike setup. I'm happy this is so cut and dry in your mind but just because you don't believe that an fsr can behave differently than a single pivot doesn't mean you're right.

It's probably the most licensed, copied, and further tweaked system that has ever taken hold in mtb suspension. Taking it on with your design means you get a flexy ass frame, more weight from bearings and that stupid specialized sticker. I'm not the only one who thinks there is something there that is worth all that crap. I'm not some blind follower, I just take a lot of bikes on test rides before I buy one. Ask anyone here who has ridden with me and I promise you.....at some time or another we have switched bikes.

Sorry Kanter :monkey:

kidwoo · Aug 9, 2005

Kanter said:
I use to ride a 2000 Big Hit before my FLY. It had the MRP 6" kit on it in the rear and a 7" 02 Super T. The bike weighed in the 35-37 range and was a great DH/FR/trail bike but didn't have enough travel and was a little flexy. I loved the 4bar linkage. Norcos are sweet but I want something out of the normal. I like having a bike not many people have like my FLY. Maybe thats weird but its just me. I really love the Knolly but $3200 is a lot for a frame.

Oh man I'll be the first one to tell you: If you've got the cash get a knolly. Those are some of the most beautiful frames made. I begged a guy at whistler to just let me sit on it and pedal it around at the bottom of the fitzsimmons chair last year. I can't comment on the ride quality but good gawd was that thing solid.

The only thing I would worry about is the weight. 14lbs for the frame......that's more than most DH rigs.

WheelieMan · Aug 9, 2005

kidwoo said:
I know how to set up bikes. It's not the shocks. It's also not every FSR....turners feel nothing like specialized bikes which feel kind of like titus bikes which are a little different than the old intense bikes which are almost like norcos....cept less progressive.

Truth be told, they climb better because the ones I like behave more like a single pivot than a single pivot can...because the instant center is some whacked out spot that would make a very inconvenient frame design. You and I both know that little horst link barely moves at all.....but it does change the virtual pivot location(s).

Quit sitting on your high horse and open yourself to a little discussion. I'm probably up there with some of the most anal people you will ever meet when it comes to bike setup. I'm happy this is so cut and dry in your mind but just because you don't believe that an fsr can behave differently than a single pivot doesn't mean you're right.

It's probably the most licensed, copied, and further tweaked system that has ever taken hold in mtb suspension. Taking it on with your design means you get a flexy ass frame, more weight from bearings and that stupid specialized sticker. I'm not the only one who thinks there is something there that is worth all that crap. I'm not some blind follower, I just take a lot of bikes on test rides before I buy one. Ask anyone here who has ridden with me and I promise you.....at some time or another we have switched bikes.

Sorry Kanter

I never said it was your lack of knowledge setting up shocks. The progressivity/feel/travel/model of the shock could be enough to make one bike pedal better than another.

The horst-link causes frames to be more neutral under braking compared to single-pivots, I do not believe that it makes them pedal any better.

WheelieMan · Aug 9, 2005

I love the V-Tach, really cool frame. The pricetag is kinda hard to swallow though...

kidwoo · Aug 9, 2005

Kanter said:
The Knolly is a little over 12 lbs. .

Really?

I'd hit it.

Edit: for some reason I think I remember Noel on mtbr saying this frame weight was without the shock......I might be wrong though......give him a holler. It may make me a convert too.

go-ride.com · Aug 9, 2005

I've been really liking my 7Point. I have it built up at 38 lbs, but it handles a lot lighter than that. Last Saturday I did about 35 miles of backcountry shuttles at Brianhead, UT and the 7Point never let me down. It's efficient enough to make the climbs easy and durable enough to handle full out DH runs.

I'll have to post a full review and some pics this week.

kidwoo · Aug 9, 2005

WheelieMan said:
I never said it was your lack of knowledge setting up shocks. The progressivity/feel/travel/model of the shock could be enough to make one bike pedal better than another.

Absolutely. I take that into account. Most of what I'm talking about is not any behavior that shock valving would change.....scoot scoot.

WheelieMan said:
The horst-link causes frames to be more neutral under braking compared to single-pivots, I do not believe that it makes them pedal any better.

I do......because it makes them behave like better single pivots.

I need to clarifiy though....only as an active suspension system over rocks. Riding up a fireroad, you can make any bike behave like anything with some shock adjustments. I'm only talking about the really steep rough parts on an uphill.

kidwoo · Aug 9, 2005

go-ride.com said:
I've been really liking my 7Point. I have it built up at 38 lbs, but it handles a lot lighter than that. Last Saturday I did about 35 miles of backcountry shuttles at Brianhead, UT and the 7Point never let me down. It's efficient enough to make the climbs easy and durable enough to handle full out DH runs.

I'll have to post a full review and some pics this week.

Do you ever feel like it sits too high to get into turns really hard? The 14.5 BB kind of turned me off on that frame.

Radarr · Aug 9, 2005

4-bar: are you talking about a Horst link (BigHit) or a single-pivot with a glorified linkage (Kona)?

I rode a Jamis Dakar for a long time, and it was a really tough bike. 5" front and rear, it could handle most descents without too much complaining. Throw a 150mm 66 on there and you're good to go for most anything. If you're thinking more along the lines of burly, try one of DW's famous 7-points. I hear they're great for pedaling. You could probably build one up light, but that might cost a bit.

Other than that, the only bike I can think of that is awesome at everything is an AS-X. Light, strong, and really good customer service. I've got my medium built up with a DH ring setup at about 38 lbs, and that's with DH tubes and tires.

Jesus · Aug 9, 2005

kidwoo said:
Do you ever feel like it sits too high to get into turns really hard? The 14.5 BB kind of turned me off on that frame.

But is the high bottom bracket really bad?

My Uzzi SLX is supposed to have a really high BB, but I never notice unless I put a big fork on it. With my Firefly, it feels good. Shiver...not good. :eviltongu

Brian HCM#1 · Aug 9, 2005

kidwoo said:
I haven't ridden this thing enough to be signature series. It still smells like paint and grease.

That's not paint & grease, it's Acadian :blah:

Registered · Aug 9, 2005

That Knolly looks tits, for sure. Pricey though.

What about a Wilson frame with a short 7" single crown (ie, next year's 66, etc) to steepen the HA somewhat? I gave this combo some serious consideration before I bought my SX trail. Beautiful frame, comes with 2 sets of dropouts (to run 150 or 135 mm spacing) and very affordable (I believe the frame with a DHX is less than $2000 CAN). 8.5 lbs without shock.

WheelieMan · Aug 9, 2005

Registered said:
That Knolly looks tits, for sure. Pricey though.

What about a Wilson frame with a short 7" single crown (ie, next year's 66, etc) to steepen the HA somewhat? I gave this combo some serious consideration before I bought my SX trail. Beautiful frame, comes with 2 sets of dropouts (to run 150 or 135 mm spacing) and very affordable (I believe the frame with a DHX is less than $2000 CAN). 8.5 lbs without shock.

Well unless you buy it in Canada, you get the single-pivot version, which the original poster doesn't want.

Nick · Aug 9, 2005

if you can manage with "only" 6 inches of almost-perfect travel ...

I love my RFX and until DH runs get really gnarly I can hang with my friends on DH bikes. I recently got to ride a VPFree and think it's the cat's youknowwhat too.

Radarr · Aug 9, 2005

kidwoo said:
I'm only talking about the really steep rough parts on an uphill.

Who actually rides uphill anymore?

OGRipper · Aug 9, 2005

Why not a vp-free or Uzzi? I'm partial to the SCB bikes but either one will do what you want. My free is set up basically as a DH bike but with a double chainring (888, big tires, etc.). It's a super versatile rig depending on how you set it up. I've seen a lot of people running a 66 or a Fox 36 for less weight, steeper angles, etc. You get a full seatpost and can run a triple ring if you want. The knolly is really sweet but damn that is a lot of cake...a free would be about 1/2 the cost...

xy9ine · Aug 9, 2005

i was about to suggest the devinci (ollie or wilson). very highline-esque.

dlb · Aug 9, 2005

I got to ride my Bullit and 6 Pack/RFX just about back to back on the same trails with the same parts build, fork and wheels. I do feel like the Bullit is a good climber, the rear end will bite hard until it breaks free, but the RFX seemed to just track better over rougher ground with less pedal feedback. Like climbing over a large root for example. I now have a VPX and I must say that it is amazing at all aspects of pedaling, and desending. Im having a hard time keeping the Turner around, its just a bare frame now and I have been thinking about a Nomad or a 6.6 as a trail bike, just cant seem to get enough guts to sell the Pack though!

Monkeybidnezz · Aug 9, 2005

Kanter said:
The Canadian version of the Wilson isn't too bad.

Yeah, I would consider the Canadian version. I've seen them at the shops and think they look much better in person when fully built up. Hey, if you decided that you can live with the single pivot...go back to your original idea of getting the new Fly. 2 lbs lighter, and and inch more travel. I personally really like the way the Fly pedals, and the jury is still out on my Demo since I don't have the shock set up yet.

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