[bizutch]

That championchip doesnt look major expensive, because it has rfid it would be efficient to use, wonder if it has a pc interface.... any idea of prices?

It was used at a couple Dh races here, in the dry and results were INSTANT since your chip has a number specific to you. Riding across mat #1 triggers your time, mat #2 triggers your finish. Infinite number of riders can be on course. (Not sure what happens when a 100 or more muddy tires coat the mats). They use ChampionChip at every single road running race my wife has done in the past two years with hundreds of riders starting simultaneously. It works perfect for those because all they do is tie it to their shoelace.

For bike races, they have a neoprene/velcro ankleband that the chip drops in.

I talked to the guy who runs it. He said he charges $500.00 per race plus free room and board for the event. He has something like a $2-3.00 charge per person over a set number of participants. You cross the finish, go into a corrall and drop your chip in a bucket, walk over and your time is on the printout.

 

[JohnnyBoyDH]

Charge a few more buck to race and hire a 3rd party to do it. I thank god that we have a dude doing our race series. He has a$5000 or so TAG timing system. Same thing used in WC skiing. Times to the thousandth of a second.

 

[davet]

It was used at a couple Dh races here, in the dry and results were INSTANT since your chip has a number specific to you. Riding across mat #1 triggers your time, mat #2 triggers your finish. Infinite number of riders can be on course. (Not sure what happens when a 100 or more muddy tires coat the mats). They use ChampionChip at every single road running race my wife has done in the past two years with hundreds of riders starting simultaneously. It works perfect for those because all they do is tie it to their shoelace.

For bike races, they have a neoprene/velcro ankleband that the chip drops in.

I talked to the guy who runs it. He said he charges $500.00 per race plus free room and board for the event. He has something like a $2-3.00 charge per person over a set number of participants. You cross the finish, go into a corrall and drop your chip in a bucket, walk over and your time is on the printout.

I wonder how close the chip has to be from the ground/mat. The website shows it being attached to the downtube or fork, but I wonder if it could be permanently attached the the number plate, making it extremely easy for organizers to track the chips and maybe less vulnerable to crashes.

 

[bizutch]

I wonder how close the chip has to be from the ground/mat. The website shows it being attached to the downtube or fork, but I wonder if it could be permanently attached the the number plate, making it extremely easy for organizers to track the chips and maybe less vulnerable to crashes.

Number plates being less vulnerable? You obviously don't race with the knuckleheads I do.

Not sure about the height requirement. I've always wanted to test it out, but ideally the best place would be on the bar or stem since ripping either one off would mean you're not gonna finish either way.

The guy wanted us to wear them on our ankles and had 3 mats staggered up top and 3 mats staggered down at the bottom...just in case the first or second mat didn't capture your time, the third would.

 

[jbogner]

The guy wanted us to wear them on our ankles and had 3 mats staggered up top and 3 mats staggered down at the bottom...just in case the first or second mat didn't capture your time, the third would.

The chips are unpowered and draw a charge from the mat itself when they pass within range. Hence them needing to be low and close to the mats. I've read of higher power systems used for endurance moto events with readers suspended above the racers at the finish, but haven't been able to find much about them online.

Not sure I'd ideally want to be timed that way if I were paying for it- in a DH race where hundredths of seconds can separate places, I'd hate to be the guy whose time registered on the third mat while the guy ahead of me registered on the first mat. And I'm pretty sure their systems don't calibrate for the difference in position of the mats. But the redundant chip system mats are definitely necessary to avoid missing a rider's time. (obviously, any of these systems are better than the stopwatch method).

Breaking a single beam in a consistent location like the Tag systems will ultimately provide you with more accurate times, although less convenience in start-order...

 

[bizutch]

Yeah, I've been curious about the chips for some time, but the capacity for accuracy during a DH race just isn't there either.

Plus the thing I would like to do if I decide to run my own timing company is add a split timer part way down the course.
And I realized today that going with chip timing kills your ability to run dual, dual slalom or MTNX formats.

 

[davet]

And I realized today that going with chip timing kills your ability to run dual, dual slalom or MTNX formats.

How so?

 

[bizutch]

How so?

How would you like to watch two guys come across the line and one push his front wheel across in plain sight faster than the other, but the winner had his chip on his back foot...so he lost because 2nd place had his on his front foot.

 

[A.P]

How would you like to watch two guys come across the line and one push his front wheel across in plain sight faster than the other, but the winner had his chip on his back foot...so he lost because 2nd place had his on his front foot.

So then make people put chips on their bike on a fixed point, like strapped to the fork lowers or something.

 

[bizutch]

So then make people put chips on their bike on a fixed point, like strapped to the fork lowers or something.

I didn't see any indicator on the Champion Chip site indicating the precise instant that the chip activates on the mat. So what's to say one chip activates within the first inch of the mat..and the other activates 2 inches onto the mat.

Photocells are the only way to time Dual Slalom. First knob across wins.

 

[CRoss]

So then make people put chips on their bike on a fixed point, like strapped to the fork lowers or something.

The Mountain States Cup tried chip timing this year and it failed miserably. Thank god they went back to CJ timing. People didn't get there chips some people had two, and the mats were anything but accurate. One race had five mats laid out, so the first mat could pick you up or the fifth. I also heard that at higher speeds 20+mph it was very easy for the chip not to be sensed at all.

 

[ChrisKring]

That's strange that they are having issues with the chip systems. Moto uses a different system with a similar concept. I think the transponders are powered though. Never heard of an issue with timing on that.

 

[bizutch]

That's strange that they are having issues with the chip systems. Moto uses a different system with a similar concept. I think the transponders are powered though. Never heard of an issue with timing on that.

Actually...apparently there are two types of transponders. Champion CHip has the powered ones pictured on their site, but makes no technical mention of them, only the receiver style glass ones that runners put on their shoe.

I found this site, who the AMA uses, then found this transponder and it's features and most importantly RANGE! 3 Feet high is it's max. Plus, they allow your club to sell the chips permanently to individual riders....pretty cool.

http://www.amb-it.com/chipx-transponders-c-1_3.html

This company has some serious technology that someone like you could comprehend more than me.

 

[CRoss]

I was going to mention RC car racing timing systems. It looks like the link you have does that also.

I think the powered transponders would be the way to go. Having a range and a max speed beyond what a typical DH race would see at the finish line. 3' range and 46mph max speed.

For $100 I would pick up a personal transponder with out much complaint.

With this system it looks like you could have up to 3 split times also on the course. That would be really nice to have.

 

[JohnnyBoyDH]

AMB is the way to go if you are using transponders....But at the cost to set it all up I think you can buy a real timing system (Like a TAG system) no?

 

[bizutch]

AMB is the way to go if you are using transponders....But at the cost to set it all up I think you can buy a real timing system (Like a TAG system) no?

Not sure yet. I am getting a price quote because I am very seriously looking into getting the system. The part I like best about the AMB is two-fold.
1. You can BURY the finish line detector for ski/snow/mtb races.
2. Instant results that are viewable online.

It's neat that you can buy your transponder and every race you go to that I time, you are automaticly recorded.

Downside would be total cost to get the system (which I can't find any pricing of) and a BULK of transponders in the 250-500 unit range.

I love the Tag photocell system, for sure, but if you've ever ran a race or volunteered to be a timer..you know the most stressful thing is looking at a fruit loop flying by out of control and say "What's your #?" , especially if some other racer just ran them down.

 

[davet]

I love the Tag photocell system, for sure, but if you've ever ran a race or volunteered to be a timer..you know the most stressful thing is looking at a fruit loop flying by out of control and say "What's your #?" , especially if some other racer just ran them down.

This was my thought as well.

While the Tag system may be more accurate, it also takes a couple or few people to man the system full time while the race is on. You consider a 5 minute DH track with the elite class starting on 30 second intervals, you've got 10 racers on the track at any given time. It's fine as long as no one crashes, passes or DNF's but we all know how that goes. The guy running the show better have his game on.

The transponder system seems like it would run itself almost, so an average hack could set it up for club racing.

 

[bizutch]

...

The transponder system seems like it would run itself almost, so an average hack could set it up for club racing.

...and/or be really drunk.


"Hey dude...I'm kinda worried about the timing of our race today."
"Why?"
"The timing guy was doing tequila shots off some chicks chest after knocking back a beer bong."
"Fuh geht about it!"

 

[jbogner]

I could see it working in the context of a series, where the cost of the transponder could be amortized across a number of races (whether in the mind of the racer or in the budget of the race promoter). But adding chips creates a whole new problem for races where riders "rent" temporary chips... getting the chips back. Your drunk timer, instead of reading number plates, is going to have to chase down the deadbeats who don't return the chips... (or else put in place some sort of onerous deposit system that all the racers will inevitably complain about ).

The AMB system does look nice, though. It's gotten the wheels turning. Wonder if we can work that system into our trailbuilding grant budget...

 

[bizutch]

I could see it working in the context of a series, where the cost of the transponder could be amortized across a number of races (whether in the mind of the racer or in the budget of the race promoter). But adding chips creates a whole new problem for races where riders "rent" temporary chips... getting the chips back. Your drunk timer, instead of reading number plates, is going to have to chase down the deadbeats who don't return the chips... (or else put in place some sort of onerous deposit system that all the racers will inevitably complain about ).

The AMB system does look nice, though. It's gotten the wheels turning. Wonder if we can work that system into our trailbuilding grant budget...

Getting the rented chips back is easy. At my wife's road running races, there are hundreds of people coming across the line. They have 5 gallon buckets and the exit is taped into a corral that funnels runners to the buckets one at a time. No way out without dropping your chip off. Drunk guy could heckle endlessly to achieve this result if needed.

 

[ROCKET ROD]

Hi,
we currently run dirt bike races in a point to point maner the same as your down hill. We use an omron photo cell conected to a seiko s149 printer stopwatch which is then conected to a laptop. the times are automatically dropped into an excel program we created. all the operator needs to do is enter the rider number.

During the daywe get the start times via memory stick and down load to finish computer. We can get results with in a few minutes of racing finishing with over 100 riders and 6 heats.

Program available for you if interested -FREE.

 

[Jonny5]

Sounds awesome! Considering we already have a seiko 129?
Would this work?

Had a look at the photo cell, what models do you use? Where did you buy them?

 

[Jonny5]

Are you still out there RR?

 

[Kevin]

I used to race DH in Belgium a bit and they just used a stopwatch and a cellphone.
Thats aso one of the reasons I dont race there anymore

 

[WODIE]

I had to revive this thread because my bike club at school is in need of a legit timing system. I dont want to use chips because that would get expensive having to buy chips for every possible rider so i would rather use a photocell for the finish (tripping an infrared beam). There are wireless systems but i dont think this would work since on a downhill course you're typically going to be out of range.
The basic system i would like to use would have a stopwatch at the top which would be synced with the timer at the bottom, start the riders on 1 minute intervals, when they cross the photocell record the time in excel. I've searched all over the internet and here is what i've found.

Tag Heuer system - HL2-31 photocell ($725) + CP 520 Time recorder ($1395) Total=$2120
Alge system - RLS1n Photocell ($685) + Timy time recorder ($1950) Total=$2635 I dont know if you can connect it straight to the computer though like the Tag
www.reliableracing.com

Then there is the Brower system which is a super nice system with a photocell at the top and bottom for a total of $2480. I am not sure if you can use the system for running multiple racers at a time though which means no 1 minute intervals on a course longer than 1 minute and quite possibly a longer day of racing but its just about completely automated it seems. It also has a range of up to 5 miles. (www.browertiming.com)

These systems are expensive. Someone who did timing for us before used an equestrian timing system that he got for about $800 but i think that company might be defunkt now. Our club sports office might pay for it but i just need to find a good system and have a price in mind to bring it to the table. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

(and fyi, i know about the stopwatch timing system and would prefer not to use it so just let me know if you have any real timing system advice)
Thanks in advance

 

[bizutch]

I had to revive this thread because my bike club at school is in need of a legit timing system. I dont want to use chips because that would get expensive having to buy chips for every possible rider so i would rather use a photocell for the finish (tripping an infrared beam). There are wireless systems but i dont think this would work since on a downhill course you're typically going to be out of range.
The basic system i would like to use would have a stopwatch at the top which would be synced with the timer at the bottom, start the riders on 1 minute intervals, when they cross the photocell record the time in excel. I've searched all over the internet and here is what i've found.

Tag Heuer system - HL2-31 photocell ($725) + CP 520 Time recorder ($1395) Total=$2120
Alge system - RLS1n Photocell ($685) + Timy time recorder ($1950) Total=$2635 I dont know if you can connect it straight to the computer though like the Tag
www.reliableracing.com

Then there is the Brower system which is a super nice system with a photocell at the top and bottom for a total of $2480. I am not sure if you can use the system for running multiple racers at a time though which means no 1 minute intervals on a course longer than 1 minute and quite possibly a longer day of racing but its just about completely automated it seems. It also has a range of up to 5 miles. (www.browertiming.com)

These systems are expensive. Someone who did timing for us before used an equestrian timing system that he got for about $800 but i think that company might be defunkt now. Our club sports office might pay for it but i just need to find a good system and have a price in mind to bring it to the table. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

(and fyi, i know about the stopwatch timing system and would prefer not to use it so just let me know if you have any real timing system advice)
Thanks in advance

Call me tomorrow and I'll let you in on a little something. It may mean you have to either charge a few dollars more for the race or make a few dollars less off it, but I've got something.

Email me for my phone# @bizutch@hotmail.com

 

[bizutch]

Look what I stumbled on. I remembered spotting a stop watch and two stakes in the Sam Hill 1:04 vid and thought..."yeah...whoopee..unofficially breaking the 1:04 mark with a stop watch and stick in the ground...but nah, it's pretty legit:

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/News.aspx?NewsID=135

For a timing company, the equipment is dirt cheap!!
The two poles are about $80.00 each...but the watches are holy crap expensive!!! So the riders I guess are responsible for the cost of the timing device...i.e., the watch.

But as an event promoter...my god. No wires, no need for computer programs...just two poles. The watch records all the splits...just look at riders wrist when they cross the line!



What's the catch? Yes you still have to manually write or punch in the time from their watch...but that's NOTHING.

 

[dhmike]

i saw this in the newest issue of decline. looks pretty sweet.

 

[Diablo_Freeride]

Freelap Technology is very legit. We've spent this past week nearly round-the-clock researching the technology and interviewing the various distributors around the world. We are proud to report that Freelap will be available in the US in the very near future. In addition, our new Gravity Team and Gravity Academy will utilize this technology for coaching/training and Freelap will play a major role within our daily operations beginning mid-summer 08. More details soon.

 

[bizutch]

Freelap Technology is very legit. We've spent this past week nearly round-the-clock researching the technology and interviewing the various distributors around the world. We are proud to report that Freelap will be available in the US in the very near future. In addition, our new Gravity Team and Gravity Academy will utilize this technology for coaching/training and Freelap will play a major role within our daily operations beginning mid-summer 08. More details soon.

But in speaking with them this week, they don't have anything for actual event timing currently, only for individual self timed applications since the wrist watch is the timing system and they told me they don't have a way to handle race timing as yet?

 

[ChrisKring]

But in speaking with them this week, they don't have anything for actual event timing currently, only for individual self timed applications since the wrist watch is the timing system and they told me they don't have a way to handle race timing as yet?

My bet is that Diablo is going to rent them out so that people can time themselves or track vertical descent.

 

[bizutch]

My bet is that Diablo is going to rent them out so that people can time themselves or track vertical descent.

sure I expected that. but with the AMB Chip X, you can sell the chips and any person can show up to any AMB timed event with their chip and be pre-identified. They can pass the start and finish hundreds of times per day and go home and pull up their stats on the site www.mylaps.com and check their stats against each other online, etc.

Then come race day, the AMB system needs virtually no one to do the race timing...it's all automatic.

So basicly, Diablo or Snowshoe, etc...could sell you a chip one time for less than a $100 and all you do is show up at registration with your chip # and you're in the computer. Then on days when you're not racing and just using your park pass, strap the chip on and do timed runs without so much as pushing a single button. Go home..and check your stats...

Freelap is cool for practice...but that AMB stuff is awesome..but the timing equipment cost itself is brutal.

 

[jbogner]

sure I expected that. but with the AMB Chip X, you can sell the chips and any person can show up to any AMB timed event with their chip and be pre-identified.

The downside of the AMB system is that, because the timing is done by the fixed timer/sensors/clock display that runs $4k, Diablo would only be able to invest in gear to time a single trail. With the freelap system, $4k would let them put timing poles on every single trail in the park (since you'd only need a single pole at the base).

I think the freelap system is a great idea, and I'd thought about something similar for events on our NYC trails. Damn Steve Jones and his endless cheerleading over their 1:04 track!

I could definitely see many folks springing $250 for their own freelap timing watch. That's much more flexible and useful than a $99 AMB chip since you can buy your own poles for $120 and time yourself anywhere.

 

[bizutch]

True. But you're still left with data trapped in the watch and no way of automaticly uploading it to a hard drive for things like racing.

I suggested to the Freelap guys that maybe they could incorporate bluetooth into the watch so that for race purposes, a rider could fly past the pole to mark their time, then as they exit the finish line area hold their watch out to the timers desk to upload their race time.

The odd thing about Freelap is that if I read correctly, you activate your timer while sitting in range of the pole...and once you get out of range of the pole, the clock on your watch starts...so I wonder how far away you have to get for it to start the clock??

 

[jbogner]

True. But you're still left with data trapped in the watch and no way of automaticly uploading it to a hard drive for things like racing.

You're definitely right, it's a trade-off. I think that Diablo's fine with their current professional race timing, and the Freelap would only be there for training purposes. I don't know if I'd trust freelap or chip timing for completely consistent race timing down to a hundredth of a second. RF fields just aren't as consistent as a single light beam. Although that would make for a great article in one of the mags- a head-to-head test between a Tag system, a freelap and an AMB chip timing system. It would be interesting to see how they compare and how much each deviates from the mean over a number of runs.

I suggested to the Freelap guys that maybe they could incorporate bluetooth into the watch

That's brilliant.

 

[bizutch]

You're definitely right, it's a trade-off. I think that Diablo's fine with their current professional race timing, and the Freelap would only be there for training purposes. I don't know if I'd trust freelap or chip timing for completely consistent race timing down to a hundredth of a second. RF fields just aren't as consistent as a single light beam. Although that would make for a great article in one of the mags- a head-to-head test between a Tag system, a freelap and an AMB chip timing system. It would be interesting to see how they compare and how much each deviates from the mean over a number of runs.



That's brilliant.

got the idea from the Garmin Forerunner series...they have a cheap $100.00 version of the Forerunner that picks up the pedometer signal and can bluetooth the data to a computer.

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8539227&st=forerunner+50&lp=1&type=product&cp=1&id=1188559780979

 

[?????]

For any of you who have maybe used the freelap system, what do you do with the poles if you are out in your local woods? I would be concerned that some hiker would walk by and carry it out to the trash.

 

[LukeD]

For any of you who have maybe used the freelap system, what do you do with the poles if you are out in your local woods? I would be concerned that some hiker would walk by and carry it out to the trash.

was thinking the same exact thing..

 

[happyapper]

Sorry for the thread resurrection but I've written an Android app for timing races, just wondering if anyone wants to test it out? It's going to be free and ad-free so It's not a commercial enterprise, just a bit of fun really. If you do, send me your email and I can email you the app.

Cheers,

Mark

 

[wood booger]

Sorry for the thread resurrection but I've written an Android app for timing races, just wondering if anyone wants to test it out? It's going to be free and ad-free so It's not a commercial enterprise, just a bit of fun really. If you do, send me your email and I can email you the app.

Cheers,

Mark

message sent!

Got an enduro race this weekend in Cally. Their track record with timing is horrible; either 3-4 hour delays for results, tons of mistakes/corrections, or complete loss of entire stages.

One race had 4 stages, but they only got results for 2 and had to drop the others.....
And of course they are charging $180/race!