[cableguy]

Flatout...... This is their reason for closing BB..... "We dont make **** for money letting downhillers ride our park, We are tired of hearing them bitch at us taht we need to do this we need to do that.... Forget it, no more Downhill here...."

I don't want to hijack this thread, since this is about Diablo. You and I can take it offline. But you really think BB won't take our money if it can run the park without paying $$$ for insurance/liability? They shut the park to DH because some people complained? Give me a break. It's all about the benjamins.

---------------------------

One of America's most renowned mountain-bike racing venues has pulled the plug on downhilling. Snow Summit Resort in Big Bear Lake, California will no longer allow downhill bikes on its chairlifts during the summer riding season, and this means no more downhill racing either.

According to Dick Kun, president of the resort, the change in policy stemmed primarily from the amount of liability exposure his resort was facing by allowing downhillers to ride on the mountain two hours drive from Los Angeles.

http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104585

 

[yuroshek]

I had fun riding my bike today at Diablo.

 

[sundaydoug]

I had fun riding my bike today at Diablo.

me too

 

[CBJ]

Agree perfect conditions today.

 

[DirtyMike]

I don't want to hijack this thread, since this is about Diablo. You and I can take it offline. But you really think BB won't take our money if it can run the park without paying $$$ for insurance/liability? They shut the park to DH because some people complained? Give me a break. It's all about the benjamins.

---------------------------

One of America's most renowned mountain-bike racing venues has pulled the plug on downhilling. Snow Summit Resort in Big Bear Lake, California will no longer allow downhill bikes on its chairlifts during the summer riding season, and this means no more downhill racing either.

According to Dick Kun, president of the resort, the change in policy stemmed primarily from the amount of liability exposure his resort was facing by allowing downhillers to ride on the mountain two hours drive from Los Angeles.

http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104585

Your right about it being all about the benji's...... they were not making them with DH, couple that with the CONSTANT complaining, bitching, people hitting with bull**** lawsuits that BB had to defend against.......... Yes BB pulled the plug. It was less ehadache, less problems, less cost to just no longer have DH at BB for the owners.

Like I already asid, a single peak day of snow play, would beat out the money taken in by the entire summer of riding.

The owners finally had enough of hearign from riders how to run the mountain, enough from the riders bitching about the trail conditions, bitching about closures, riders riding off limits trails, riders not following the rules..... the anwer for them was easy

 

[WhoRyder]

I took some great shots of Saturday! Glad i was able to ride after a long winter... Hope the OP heals up...

My Concerns are more the reroute from the parking lot to the gondola... well it's fine now.. but what happens when the water park opens? Would everyone (bikers & water-park folk) be funneled through that tiny section, or would the Ghetto/FAT water-park people be routed elsewhere as well?

Over all, i had a great time this weekend.. looking forward to next weekend!

 

[cableguy]

FWIW for riders outside of diablo, Anthem is hardly popular, and is a "seperate option" off the side of the trail

Does Diablo have a trail board when you get off the lift like Whistler indicating which trails are open/closed? Is Anthem marked on it? Or maybe a board on the lift indicating the trail conditions? There is obviously a conflicting opinion as to whether the trail was open (bullit398) or not (Diablo_Freeride).

 

[demo 9]

Does Diablo have a trail board when you get off the lift like Whistler indicating which trails are open/closed? Is Anthem marked on it? Or maybe a board on the lift indicating the trail conditions? There is obviously a conflicting opinion as to whether the trail was open (bullit398) or not (Diablo_Freeride).

Nothing on the mtn, but on the website they do, anthem is listed as a feature, which dont have any open/closed. (none of them) The trail its off of was open, and WAS open. Tempest was perfectly fine, Anthem (early morning) wasnt. I cant speak for if it was open or not, I would tend to think that it wasnt, being as if i was walking down a trail leaf blowing, and at the split went 1 way, i would mark the other way closed. I dont entirely blame the OP, i had some similar run ins (granted mine were erosion and moved rocks) I dont blame either party, sure diablo can be wrong for not having a "feature" open/closed section, but the OP didnt scope it out either. The whole scenario seems to me like calling the cops when somebody steals your weed.

 

[DownhillR3]

My Concerns are more the reroute from the parking lot to the gondola... well it's fine now.. but what happens when the water park opens? Would everyone (bikers & water-park folk) be funneled through that tiny section, or would the Ghetto/FAT water-park people be routed elsewhere as well?

I thought this exact scenario on Saturday WhoRyder, one of the questions I have to ask during my phone call tomorrow. I will let you know the answer. If that set-up is still there come US OPEN time, oh boy are we in for a mess. But it's overdue for a new lodge, just a bummer it interferes with our riding.

 

[demo 9]

Snowboarding > biking =(

 

[w00dy]

In contrast to this, I had a great time clearing and THEN riding trails at Plattekill this weekend. Hooray for caring about the sport.

 

[Sandwich]

we should all be grateful for OP's thick neck. Without it, he may have been paralyzed, then could have easily sued the resort and probably won. Then bye-bye diablo. Legal precedent in the states suggests that it's up to the land owner to provide some kind of indication that things are closed or prohibited, sad as it may be.

Hopefully Diablo takes a learning lesson from this and doesn't stack **** at the bottom of marked drops and instead stacks **** at the TOP and bottom of marked drops....or uses more than a fart and some spiderwebs to mark a section closed. Highland will typically use a pair of ski markers and a giant orange rope to close a trail. As far as OP checking the landing, I think it's fair to assume that a trail is clear if everything else on the mountain and leading up to it is clear, but it's still worth checking the landings on early season drops. I'm probably labeled as chicken **** because I never hit anything blind, but I'm also not broken either.

To OP- was there any tape or any rope indicating that the drop had at any time been closed or was close-able? There's a big difference between the complete absence of tape or marking and some **** torn down and cast aside.

 

[bullit398]

I rode of Anthem drop about 11:00am on Saturday and although the landing was covered in leaves there were not any branches and the was totally ridable. I hit this drop two more time on that day with out any problems.

This must have been right after they cleared it. Just curious, did you scope it out before you hit it?

 

[bullit398]

we should all be grateful for OP's thick neck. Without it, he may have been paralyzed, then could have easily sued the resort and probably won. Then bye-bye diablo. Legal precedent in the states suggests that it's up to the land owner to provide some kind of indication that things are closed or prohibited, sad as it may be.

Hopefully Diablo takes a learning lesson from this and doesn't stack **** at the bottom of marked drops and instead stacks **** at the TOP and bottom of marked drops....or uses more than a fart and some spiderwebs to mark a section closed. Highland will typically use a pair of ski markers and a giant orange rope to close a trail. As far as OP checking the landing, I think it's fair to assume that a trail is clear if everything else on the mountain and leading up to it is clear, but it's still worth checking the landings on early season drops. I'm probably labeled as chicken **** because I never hit anything blind, but I'm also not broken either.

To OP- was there any tape or any rope indicating that the drop had at any time been closed or was close-able? There's a big difference between the complete absence of tape or marking and some **** torn down and cast aside.

No signs of trail closure. No tape, no rope no signs. Nothing sitting next to the trail entrance that had been removed. Like I said, I rode past the entrance to this around 9:30 and there were no signs of closure at that time either.

 

[cubsrtbest99]

Like its been said quite a few times in this thread you should always check features like drops before you hit them for the first time in a season. I got off an checked the covenant drop even though Ive hit it hundereds of times just because its a smart thing to do. Dont ever put your life in someone elses hands.

 

[IH8Rice]

glad youre relatively okay Jim!

did anyone actually speak to you at the mountain besides the EMT/helmet expert?

 

[waterdogs]

Everyone involved should have simply done what makes sense and none of this would have happened. It boils down to risk management, do that and you won't have a problem.

Rider, look before you leap
Park, have a trail scout, don't let overhead $$$ get in the way, safety is more important
Park, why place obstacles downstream of any feature (I personally don't agree with this). Closed or not, you in essence invite the ride to hit the feature and pretty much seal his fate or invoke injury downstream of that feature. That's not good sense. I'd suggest putting a obstacle at the entrance or at the lip of the drop. Trail open or closed/voluntary or not, the rider can see the feature is closed and react to keep all parties in the green/safe.

Risk Management 101, take the necessary steps to keep your customers safe and happy

 

[bullit398]

glad youre relatively okay Jim!

did anyone actually speak to you at the mountain besides the EMT/helmet expert?

Nope, no one.

 

[FlipFantasia]

fact is, when you pay money to ride a bike park, and trails are open, there is an implied fact that those trails are safe for public use and won't be covered in debris. they're lucky the rider wasn't seriously injured, and the mtb community is lucky too. can't believe some people on here are trying to blame the OP for threatening the operation of the DFP, they're the ones to fault for this, not him.

 

[Sandwich]

fact is, when you pay money to ride a bike park, and trails are open, there is an implied fact that those trails are safe for public use and won't be covered in debris. they're lucky the rider wasn't seriously injured, and the mtb community is lucky too. can't believe some people on here are trying to blame the OP for threatening the operation of the DFP, they're the ones to fault for this, not him.

this. There's a big difference between a fallen tree across the trail and clicking dismiss in your outlook calendar on "clear pointy sticks from landing areas". If OP was complaining that the landing had been moved or was too steep/shallow then that's his problem, but it sounds pretty clear that the trail LOOKED open when it should have been closed....and ****, the fact that they ignored him when he came in complaining is absolute BS. I found a similar felled tree across a trail at plattekill and Nolan took note so he could go up and chop it up before the season officially started. That's not even on an often used trail, but a ****ty offchute in the woods. Diablo should have at least heard him out, and then fired the effing EMT who suggested he continue riding in his helmet.

 

[cableguy]

I rode of Anthem drop about 11:00am on Saturday and although the landing was covered in leaves there were not any branches and the was totally ridable. I hit this drop two more time on that day with out any problems.

Interesting that Diablo cleared the landing area which was supposed to be "closed" instead of re-closing it again right after the incident. According to Diablo, "this trail was clearly closed with rope, a trail closed sign and downfall was placed on BOTH the landing AND in-run."

Most parks obviously can't afford Whistler's ultra-nice trail board, but they could get a cheap chalk boards and put it next to the lifts indicating status of "closed" trails and other conditions.

 

[Inclag]

fact is, when you pay money to ride a bike park, and trails are open, there is an implied fact that those trails are safe for public use and won't be covered in debris. they're lucky the rider wasn't seriously injured, and the mtb community is lucky too. can't believe some people on here are trying to blame the OP for threatening the operation of the DFP, they're the ones to fault for this, not him.

^
Truth.

I still can't wrap my head around Diablo's response in this thread.

 

[Raingauge]

fact is, when you pay money to ride a bike park, and trails are open, there is an implied fact that those trails are safe for public use and won't be covered in debris. they're lucky the rider wasn't seriously injured, and the mtb community is lucky too. can't believe some people on here are trying to blame the OP for threatening the operation of the DFP, they're the ones to fault for this, not him.

QFT. There is a level of safety required and expected when paying for a lift ticket.

 

[Krzr3000]

fact is, when you pay money to ride a bike park, and trails are open, there is an implied fact that those trails are safe for public use and won't be covered in debris. they're lucky the rider wasn't seriously injured, and the mtb community is lucky too. can't believe some people on here are trying to blame the OP for threatening the operation of the DFP, they're the ones to fault for this, not him.

YES. I'm gonna quote this again, just because.

/thread

 

[IH8Rice]

I still can't wrap my head around Diablo's response in this thread.

its on par with their other responses.


if some "rogue" rider(s) took enough time to move and hide ropes and signs that said "closed," then why didnt they bother to clear the bottom of the landing?

edit: maybe the logs were part of their "proprietary feature construction method"

 

[Sandwich]

its on par with their other responses.


if some "rogue" rider(s) took enough time to move and hide ropes and signs that said "closed," then why didnt they bother to clear the bottom of the landing?

edit: maybe the logs were part of their "proprietary feature construction method"

don't forget, the invisiriders also cleared off the "inrun" of the rail. So, they cut the rope, stole it and the signs, then cleared off the logs on top of the drop, but left the ones on the bottom.

 

[IH8Rice]

don't forget, the invisiriders also cleared off the "inrun" of the rail. So, they cut the rope, stole it and the signs, then cleared off the logs on top of the drop, but left the ones on the bottom.

those crafty bastards!

 

[OGRipper]

fact is, when you pay money to ride a bike park, and trails are open, there is an implied fact that those trails are safe for public use and won't be covered in debris.

Theory vs. reality: Theoretically you are right. In reality, here in the US we all need to take a little more personal responsibility, or we will lose the places we like to ride. That's just the way it is, partly as result of our messed up health care/insurance system.

Diablo is not Whistler, but regardless, scoping out big features on opening day is not too much to ask.

Yes, it seems insane to pay for the privilege of riding a mountain that needs safety-checking. But being self-righteous about it will feel pretty hollow when the lifts are closed.

 

[ebxtreme]

fact is, when you pay money to ride a bike park, and trails are open, there is an implied fact that those trails are safe for public use and won't be covered in debris. they're lucky the rider wasn't seriously injured, and the mtb community is lucky too. can't believe some people on here are trying to blame the OP for threatening the operation of the DFP, they're the ones to fault for this, not him.

I don't know Flip. You've probably heard of "closed" ropes being pulled down from riders at Whistler. That way, if they get caught poaching by patrol or trailcrew, they can say "wtf, it was open" instead of getting their pass pulled. Usually, that only happens on trails that are near completion or being worked on, but I've seen guys ducking into Ninja Cougar when it's sloppy outside 'cause they "paid their money and I'm gonna ride any trail I want".

My guess is some dumbass pulled the rope and sign(s) down thinking exactly the same thing and then when they got to the drop saw the branches on the landing and realized they'd have to clear that off too. Instead of putting the rope back up (hey, someone might break their neck on this), they just took off and left it as is.

The OP definitely isn't at fault here, but it's hard to say Diablo is either if they had roped and signed it closed and put stuff across the entrance/ladder. Fortunately, he's ok and this should serve as a nice "wakeup" to their patrollers to be more on top of this sh!t. I'd say putting branches across landings - especially blind landings - is just terrible policy. As a resort, risk management has to be top of mind and they've got to account for poachers.

EB

 

[Sandwich]

EB- not trying to flame the controversy further, but did you see that the OP said there was NO indicator of recent trail closure? I could buy the theory, but surely the mystery riders would have left the rope and signage on the ground, not stolen it...right? seems odd to me to carry a "closed" sign and associated rope to the bottom of the mountain with you. I mean, I can totally see how something like that could have been to blame, but it just seems illogical that there was no oversight by the trail crew.

 

[Inclag]

this. There's a big difference between a fallen tree across the trail and clicking dismiss in your outlook calendar on "clear pointy sticks from landing areas". If OP was complaining that the landing had been moved or was too steep/shallow then that's his problem, but it sounds pretty clear that the trail LOOKED open when it should have been closed....and ****, the fact that they ignored him when he came in complaining is absolute BS. I found a similar felled tree across a trail at plattekill and Nolan took note so he could go up and chop it up before the season officially started. That's not even on an often used trail, but a ****ty offchute in the woods. Diablo should have at least heard him out, and then fired the effing EMT who suggested he continue riding in his helmet.

C'mon lets be serious here. This is the mountain bike industry where business is more about lifestyle and keeping things bro then actually giving a damn about due diligence and proper good business practice when it's necessary. It's about flannel shirts, flat billed caps, and being able to have beers with your boys at the end of a day. The air of crony-ism that sometimes perpetuates from it at times stinks and is similar to a sleazy salesman convention with some folks turning over from company to company at a rate that makes me wonder if they are that incompetent or if they are just posses constantly looking after one another.

In other industry's heads would roll for something analogous to this, but instead we get intardnet fighting and a response from the mountain which is as unprofessional and lacking of tact as you could imagine.

.... After putting it in those terms I guess I'm not that surprised as this is pretty much par for how things go. Flip is right, the community pretty much dodged a bullet here.

 

[EVIL JN]

Having skied since i was maybe six and now having been into dh for 5 years i have never seen the approach of piling debris on the landing as a means to close off a feature. To me piling debris on the landing should never be done, i mean even if somebody is riding a section/trail which isnt open officialy they shouldnt be surprised with debris on blind landings. Safety first and foremost even for pepole that act stupid. A feature should always be properly closed of some distance before the stunt so a rider has adequate time to stop and the signs should be properly visible and hard to remove. On top of that it would also be a good idea to on the list of open trails mark out small side track stunts if they are open or closed. I know would feel frickin terrible if something like this happend and i were in charge.

 

[newyork1]

There are two different categories of responses to the OP in this thread. One group acknowledges the ridiculousness of Diablo's actions in leaving the landing of a drop covered in branches, whereas the other group is jumping on the OP to condemn him for daring to jeopardize Diablo's operation with his complaining. I wonder how the members of the latter group would have reacted if it was one of them in the OP's place.

 

[ebxtreme]

EB- not trying to flame the controversy further, but did you see that the OP said there was NO indicator of recent trail closure? I could buy the theory, but surely the mystery riders would have left the rope and signage on the ground, not stolen it...right? seems odd to me to carry a "closed" sign and associated rope to the bottom of the mountain with you. I mean, I can totally see how something like that could have been to blame, but it just seems illogical that there was no oversight by the trail crew.

I saw the OP say he didn't see any indication of the trail being closed, but that doesn't mean it wasn't or hadn't been closed by Diablo prior.

My point is I've seen ropes that were up on one lap suddenly not be up on the next when they obviously weren't opened up by patrol. A couple of items at Whistler are frequently closed when the weather is sh!tty like "the manager" off of Duffman. The Manager isn't any harder in the wet, but the runout is on a wooden ladder that gets slicker than snot in the rain and there is all kinds of carnage on that. All it has to keep folks off of it is a rope that anyone can pull down.

I'm not saying Diablo shouldn't be on top of this, but my first day of the season, I'm always hyper aware of the trail conditions and potential changes that have taken place. Do I think Kira or Finestone would advocate putting branches on a blind landing in Whistler? No.

EB

 

[Bike Whore]

if you don't look before you leap then your a fool

 

[thom9719]

EB- not trying to flame the controversy further, but did you see that the OP said there was NO indicator of recent trail closure? I could buy the theory, but surely the mystery riders would have left the rope and signage on the ground, not stolen it...right? seems odd to me to carry a "closed" sign and associated rope to the bottom of the mountain with you. I mean, I can totally see how something like that could have been to blame, but it just seems illogical that there was no oversight by the trail crew.

Not that I've ever done it, but if I were to open a "closed" trail, I would probally toss the closed sign as far off into the brush as I could.

The other thing to think about is that in Whistler at least, sign theft has been a problem. If the sign is attached to the rope, it's alot easier/faster to shove the whole thing in a camelback and take off rather than to untie and unthread the sign from the rope (Please understand I've never been to Diablo, I don't know what methods they use for closing trail).

Just some food for thought.

-KT

 

[cecil]

a question for the op what if someone had crashed and was laying on the landing with a broken leg?

is it that unreasonable to think that someone who wanted to hit that drop pulled down a cardboard sign and some caution tape (the small drop after doms denial is taped off with skimpy plastic tape) then saw the branches on the landing? i constantly come up on groups of idiots parked in the middle of the trails at diablo, once on covenant 2 bikes were laying on the wooden take off as they stood on the end looking off oblivious to the fact that they are not the only people on the hill, or the time i went off pipeline to almost head on 3 douche bags pushing their bikes towards me up the transition

we participate in a sport that full face helmets, body armor, and neck braces are common place!

first and foremost to the op im am glad you did not get hurt, i ride at diablo on a regular basis i also have been to trestle bike park, solvista, keystone, 7springs, verticle earth, hunter mt. plattekill, whiteface, denton, and swain all lift tickets have basicly the same disclaimer on the back of them.

"downhill biking is inherently dangerous sport which can result in personal injury including catastrophic injury, death, or property damage. user of this lift ticket agrees to assume the risk of personal injury, death, or property damage inherent in downhill biking. if you are not willing to assume the risks set fourth on the "warning" please do not bike at this area."

to all who want to flame me or neg rep me whatever! get a life!

if i came to your home and tripped over a pair of shoes by your front door and broke my wrist would that make you negligent?!

 

[Runner]

if i came to your home and tripped over a pair of shoes by your front door and broke my wrist would that make you negligent?!

No, because you expect shoes to be sitting by the front door. However if you were walking up the stairs and they caved in leaving you hurt or disabled, then he absolutely would be negligent. Guess which of those two examples is a closer fit to finding a pile of logs on a blind landing that isn't marked as closed?

 

[DirtyMike]

Couple good points here.
Not going to quote everything... just make responces


In responce to the trail closed markers dissapearing.... Even at big bear you used to see the markers dissapear completly from those riders taht say... i paid, I will ride what I want....


Ok I agree, the stack of branches at teh bottom was a bad idea in general..... But hey it happened.
Others brought up a really great point.... and this is why you dont just go for a blind drop without looking. I get it, there shouldnt have been anything there...... People are all getting up in arms about this because it was stacked branches..... But there was a great point, what if it was a downed rider, or some jackass who left his bike there.....
That has been my point all along as to why the OP... AND ALL RIDERS.... should always look and scope out blind features to make sure they are rideable... paid admission or not....... This is were others are adding the personal responsibility part....


So what if there was a downed rider there, with a broken leg.... and lets say same scenario..... rider cannot move, yet you came into the feature hot enough that you dont have time to stop..... Now you land on a rider and you increase their injuries to head trauma, internal organ damage, broken neck...... Now who is the asshole at fault... changes the story a bit when you think of it like that..... Bottom line is still... Should have looked first.

 

[cecil]

No, because you expect shoes to be sitting by the front door. However if you were walking up the stairs and they caved in leaving you hurt or disabled, then he absolutely would be negligent. Guess which of those two examples is a closer fit to finding a pile of logs on a blind landing that isn't marked as closed?

i expect to see branches in the woods!

there are signs all over that hill that say "tecnical drop use extreme caution"
"this trail contains man made features that require expert skill inspect all features before attempting"

i realize that sign is at dominion and tempest is on the complete other side but those signs are all over and are there for a reason