http://www.nsmb.com/gear/marz_sessions05_08_04.php
Good stuff! Glad I didn't bother buying a new fork this past season.
Good stuff! Glad I didn't bother buying a new fork this past season.
Did you see NSMB's '05 Marzocchi coverage?
- Thread starter Bulldog
- Start date
Random thoughts:
-How did they shave a full 3/4 pound off the Z1, while bumping it up to 150mm travel and adding a steel steerer tube, while not subtracting anything major? And with the optional alloy steerer, it's probably closer to a full 1 pound off. Interesting. BTW THANK GOD FOR FINALLY GIVING A REAL 20MM AXLE CLAMP!
-Dirt Jumpers. What's the difference between the 1 and 2, other than 1/2 pound and color?
-The "R" or mid-range models. One leg HSCV and one leg SSV. Namely the 66R which claims external reboung, 30 clicks. I'm assuming the high-end HSCV cartridge is the 30 click 888 cartridge, but doesn't the C in HSCV stand for Compression? In general terms is rebound a form of compression or is this labeling a bit confusing? Does anyone notice a problem while riding with rebound spiking? I understand packing up (too slow) to be different from spiking, no? I can totally understand how 250 pounds of man and machine crashing down brutally can cause compression spiking in a simple damper, but can just a coil spring in control of rebound force cause spiking?
My personal dilemma between the 6" Z1 and 6" 66 isn't getting any easier. It comes down to 1 pound in weight, ETA, headangle/a2c measurements, tire clearance, and to a minimal extent the prices. I wish I could try them both on my bike and sell which I don't like, but my credit card will not allow!
I'm thinking go for the big dog 66 because I have enough experience with the Z1 (love it) to have an educated guess about the Z1 6", and if the 66 is too much I can then go *down* to the Z1 6". Hope to see them both in person at Vegas first though! Maybe even ride them at Demo days.
-How did they shave a full 3/4 pound off the Z1, while bumping it up to 150mm travel and adding a steel steerer tube, while not subtracting anything major? And with the optional alloy steerer, it's probably closer to a full 1 pound off. Interesting. BTW THANK GOD FOR FINALLY GIVING A REAL 20MM AXLE CLAMP!
-Dirt Jumpers. What's the difference between the 1 and 2, other than 1/2 pound and color?
-The "R" or mid-range models. One leg HSCV and one leg SSV. Namely the 66R which claims external reboung, 30 clicks. I'm assuming the high-end HSCV cartridge is the 30 click 888 cartridge, but doesn't the C in HSCV stand for Compression? In general terms is rebound a form of compression or is this labeling a bit confusing? Does anyone notice a problem while riding with rebound spiking? I understand packing up (too slow) to be different from spiking, no? I can totally understand how 250 pounds of man and machine crashing down brutally can cause compression spiking in a simple damper, but can just a coil spring in control of rebound force cause spiking?
My personal dilemma between the 6" Z1 and 6" 66 isn't getting any easier. It comes down to 1 pound in weight, ETA, headangle/a2c measurements, tire clearance, and to a minimal extent the prices. I wish I could try them both on my bike and sell which I don't like, but my credit card will not allow!
I'm thinking go for the big dog 66 because I have enough experience with the Z1 (love it) to have an educated guess about the Z1 6", and if the 66 is too much I can then go *down* to the Z1 6". Hope to see them both in person at Vegas first though! Maybe even ride them at Demo days.
damn! if i wasnt gettin the 05 talas i would def go for the all mountain SL
i tried to read the third page, but all i saw was:
Attachments
I will believe the Marz. weights when I see one on a digital scale.. Marz makes fine equipment, but their usual estimates on fork weights are ludicrous at best...
Sandwich said:
haahhahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!
I want that All Mountain 1 in black.
Or actually any color beside the chicken**** color I keep seeing it in.
I did see a pic of the AM SL in black and I had to change pants.
Their '05 line looks great.
Or actually any color beside the chicken**** color I keep seeing it in.
I did see a pic of the AM SL in black and I had to change pants.
Their '05 line looks great.
OK wait....now I'm confused. I've got a 04 888R. both rebound & compression built in. So now the 05 version of my fork is the 888RC? And what is this about alloy steerer optional on the "R". Does my 04 888R have an alloy steerer or steel? I would assume alloy right?
Yep, 888RC, the 05' 888R ain't got no external compression doohickey. Oh, and all 04 888's have alloy steerers.bizutch said:
hey as for marzocchi wiegths of thier product it seems like they got a scale that works now. my 2004 (third gen.) z150 accuatlly weighted 1/4 lb less than they said!. this was the same with 2 of my friends fork also!
i personally would like to try the 66(the highend one) in both the 6" and the 7" version. they should make this adj. by the cust. for converince reasons.
but i personnally think that marzocchi is going to have to look out for the 2005 manitou line up. they have another line called slice that is and cheap(like the $250 range price wise) yet heavy sherman line and the new flick and firefly(the fork i really want to try)
i personally would like to try the 66(the highend one) in both the 6" and the 7" version. they should make this adj. by the cust. for converince reasons.
but i personnally think that marzocchi is going to have to look out for the 2005 manitou line up. they have another line called slice that is and cheap(like the $250 range price wise) yet heavy sherman line and the new flick and firefly(the fork i really want to try)
Hmmm interesting stuff and more to think about like would a 66 with 170mm be better for DH than an 04 Boxxer Team. New boxxers on the way, new Fox DH, we don't know what manitou is up to and all the sweet new Marzocchi stuff - what to do what to do.
that I would believe. So anybody know if they've been told oil bath works yet?Bulldog said:Still working on getting '04 Dorado's right I think.
You know, Brian Peterson at one point had some talk about the fact that some of the damping for 05 was going to be very different than the years before. They seem to use "damping terms" pretty vaguely and liberally over there at Marz, remember SSV used to mean cartridges, and HSCV carts in an 888 are most definitely not the same HSCV carts that come in a shiver or Super T. He said something about mx-bladder type dampers and something to the effect that there were some big changes. Sorry I'm being vague here, but maybe brian will pop up and set the record straight.Bulldog said:
The difference in "HSCV" as compared to the prior cartridges is the high speed compression performance, basically there are better blowoff circuts for the "HSCV" cart. Compared to the old carts, the basic HSCV stuff that came along in 2002 wasn't a whole lot better, but it was better. If they truley have new damping systems, and considering the 888, the stuff that they are calling "HSCV" now may in fact be a lot better than the 2002 stuff...
Well, traditionally (except for 2000) there have only been rebound-adjustable cartridges. Before 2002 they were SSV cartridge dampers, 2002 and after they were called "HSCV" for the addition of better high speed compression valving.Bulldog said:
For 2004, *most* marzocchi forks still operate on the same principle that they always have (2000 excluded), however, there are forks in 2004 that did have compression adjustments, such as the 888 and the Monster T's shiver MX carts (which started in 2003)...
This gets confusing fast, but I know you are pretty knowlegable to what is going on Bulldog, so the C in hsCv doesn't mean that it's necesarilly adjustable, it is just pointing out the improvement to the compression damping that occured in 2002.
These days(2004 and 2005), it looks as if they are just using "HSCV" across the board, to signifiy their high-end damping systems, ala, 888, 66, Z150, etc..even though they may be fairly different...
And to tell the diff, a ported damper has a pumping rod that has holes at the end of it, as the fork moves, the rod remains stationary, and oil is "pumped" through the holes essentially. It's a bit more complicated when you figure in some of the other features, but that's the dirty of it. The cart dampers have a piston that moves up and down with the uppers, it moves inside of a "tube" usually and is a shimmed piston setup. Again, this is just the simplest iteration, there's free-bleeds and you could have a 2-stage piston as well.
The way I tell the diff though is when I get off the bike and say "holy sh*t! this thing feels like it's trying to break my wrists off!"
All I know is I am selling my 888 to get a 66 when they come out..anyone know pricing?
I think I got it. The HSCV name applies loosely to all cartridge dampers, and SSV/SSVF applies to the simple ported dampers.
Check this out then:
66 R
Damping HSCV (one side), SSVF (one side)
Features PL / R, external rebound (30 clicks)
So they use a cartridge rebound damper and a ported compression damper I'm guessing? Isn't that backasswards of how you should cut corners yet maintain best possible performance? I think people can notice a huge difference between Marz's ported and cartridge COMPRESSION dampers, while I'm still not conviced we can tell much difference between the two on the rebound stroke. I guess doing it their way though forces many more sales of the $$ RC models. I for one would seriously consider the R model if it was the compression that got the cartridge and the rebound with the simple porting.
Check this out then:
66 R
Damping HSCV (one side), SSVF (one side)
Features PL / R, external rebound (30 clicks)
So they use a cartridge rebound damper and a ported compression damper I'm guessing? Isn't that backasswards of how you should cut corners yet maintain best possible performance? I think people can notice a huge difference between Marz's ported and cartridge COMPRESSION dampers, while I'm still not conviced we can tell much difference between the two on the rebound stroke. I guess doing it their way though forces many more sales of the $$ RC models. I for one would seriously consider the R model if it was the compression that got the cartridge and the rebound with the simple porting.
most likely they will be damn near a 888, maybe a hundred less or soone7one said:
I was under impression that they both damped compression and rebound. I don't know if the "SSV" thing they are using on the forks that have an HSCV cart are adjustable, but the rebound on the HSCV is most definitly.Bulldog said:
The "HSCV" cart dampens both compression and rebound, and one cart can work just fine (like all the XC and FR marzocchis have), who knows if they made it even more effective for the freeride forks that are using just "one" hscv cart, but it is definitely possible. So theoretically they could have made the hscv better for the forks that are only going to run one cartridge, so you do not have to "increase" the rebound more than you'd usually use. I don't use much anyhow and find that at high speeds what seems like "enough" rebound for low speed is just way too much at high speed. I always use a little less than I think I need at first, and it seems to work out fine.
The SSV side could have been modified from what you'd find in a Jr T as well, so that it doesn't spike (make bigger ports). It would loose effectiveness, but it aint real effective in the first place anyhow, I have a suspicion that the "SSV" side might serve some other main purpose, like some sort of travel mechanism?
It's hard to say what the extent of each is on the damping, that seems to be your question and it's not really possible to answer without knowing a lot of specifics about each damper.
whoa....the 2004 Speculation Award goes to.....JM!!!!!
Now, let me off this roller coaster...I think I'm gonna be sick.
Now, let me off this roller coaster...I think I'm gonna be sick.
actually, i was trying to better describe what hscv is and what it does, and then i said that it may or may not actually help us describe the 2005 model years...bizutch said:whoa....the 2004 Speculation Award goes to.....JM!!!!!
Now, let me off this roller coaster...I think I'm gonna be sick.
im happy they got rid of the qr20 thing, i always found that to be a pain in the arse
They have their low-end stance line that's built off of the Sherman platform coming. And they're making some changes to the guts of the Shermans... namely the SPV.CBJ said:
did somebody say something about an oil bath?
sorry, still on page 3.
sorry, still on page 3.
Amen. SlowRelease20 was one of the only things I could complain about when it comes to Marzocchi... what an utter pain it was.freeriding101 said:
Looks like more evolution than revolution... but that's not entirely a bad thing. It's sorta like Marz got their **** together back in 97, and have just slowly made it better and better since. A few minor ups and downs on the way, but nothing major to note.
easy choice my friend!!CBJ said:
wouldn't a 7" sc be heavy as **** if it used mostly steel?bcd said:Marzocchi is effectively disputing the claim that a 7" SC fork needs a 1.5" steerer.
sure, as long as they are steel. i would not run a alum 1.125 6'' + single crown.
the 1.5 steerer is not the only for the fork improvments guys.
I thought the same thing when I read that. Stubborn and narrow sighted if you ask me. Not that they need to produce 1.5 steerers if they don't want to, but to keep ragging on a standard that has been nothing but successful is silly. I guess there's really no telling where that statement came from, though - might just be NSMB's own speculation rather than a feeling held by Marz.bcd said:Marzocchi is effectively disputing the claim that a 7" SC fork needs a 1.5" steerer.
sure, as long as they are steel. i would not run a alum 1.125 6'' + single crown.
the 1.5 steerer is not the only for the fork improvments guys.
Next year looks like a lot of good evolution for several manufacturers' forks.
66 vs Z1 vs 36 ?
They are all going to kill it.
Because, 6" is the magic number not 5, 6 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Don't you remember the old nursery rhyme ?
You know, 6 little chipmunks sitting on the fence, on my uncles farm, eating lots of sunflower seeds.
They are all going to kill it.
Because, 6" is the magic number not 5, 6 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Don't you remember the old nursery rhyme ?
You know, 6 little chipmunks sitting on the fence, on my uncles farm, eating lots of sunflower seeds.
If I remember right, they weren't new 'drop' crowns. In other words they won't lower the ride height, only fit more frames better.Kanter said:
Why in the h3ll do they keep adding more travel to forks like the Z1? I can never see trail riding and needing more than 4-5". I trail ride on a 03 DJer 3 with 4" of travel.
Looks like marz.com has a counter on their site and the forks wil be out in abotu 20 days