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Discussion: New school vs. Old school riders...

kail

Monkey
Mar 14, 2002
134
0
Montana
Alright, I know this is the DH forum, but more people post here than on the FR forum, and I'd guess that most of you would consider yourselves freeriders as well as racers. Anyway, I've been noticing in a lot of publications lately, namely Decline and Mountain Bike action, a trend of hating on some of the old-school freeriders such as Wade Simmons, Ritchie Schley, Dave Watson, etc. Usually, names aren't used, but it's pretty clear who is implied. The articles usually try to lead the reader to believe that these guys' riding is no longer valid, and that new school riders are somehow more "gnar" and the "real deal." Cameron Zinc has an article in the latest Decline that basically says some of the old "freeride pioneers" need to hang it up so that newcomers can be invited to contests. He says that some of the old-school riders are "milking it," and they're being invited to contests just because of who they are. Lately, it seems that riders don't get any credit unless they're pulling 360's off drops, tailwhipping doubles, and backflipping everything in sight. I disagree with this whole stance. New school slopestyle contests and freeriding would not even exist today without those old guys going out back in the day and sending it off huge cliffs and ladder-bridge drops. Guys like Schley and Simmons invented the whole freeride movement. I think that the new slopestyle contests put too much emphasis on street and BMX skills. Furthermore, 20" BMX pros are still light years ahead of guys like Cam Zinc and Paul Basagoita. When a mountain biker does a 720 over a big set of doubles, he's pretty much sponsered immediately, yet in the BMX world, the pros can pretty much all do that and add a tailwhip no-hander to it, and they don't get all hyped up like these new-school mountainbikers. I'd like to see the return of big mountain-style freeride competitions like the RedBull Rampage. I think we need to keep the "mountain" in mountain biking. In defense of those aformentioned "freeride pioneers," they're still killing it. I've had the chance to see Wade Simmons ride in person, both at the Rampage and in Whistler, as well as seen some of the crazy lines he's guinea-pigged over the years while shooting films. He is THE smoothest rider I've ever seen, and he's done stunts that no one else will try. Having met him, I've also found him to be an outstanding spokesperson for the sport, with a genuine positive attitude and not a trace of arrogance. I think that there should be respect for these old-school riders, and I've been annoyed that there has been a lack of it in the press lately. Rather, it seems they're being hung out to dry. This is just a rant I've been thinking about for the last few weeks. I think it can provide for an interesting discussion. Your opinions?.....
 

ÆX

Turbo Monkey
Sep 8, 2001
4,920
0
amarillo
thats why no one is in the freeride forum

we don't care about that here.

go make drama else were
 

The Kadvang

I rule
Apr 13, 2004
3,501
0
six five oh
So like you said, the new slopestyle contests are based on BMX ish skills. Why should the 'old' pros be invited, when they don't have those skills? They rip, just not in that sort of contest. Therefore, why should they get an automatic spot that could be taken by and up and coming rider?

Solution: make everyone qualify.
 

Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
9,890
4
Hypernormality
kail said:
Alright, I know this is the DH forum, but more people post here than on the FR forum, and I'd guess that most of you would consider yourselves freeriders as well as racers.

Anyway, I've been noticing in a lot of publications lately, namely Decline and Mountain Bike action, a trend of hating on some of the old-school freeriders such as Wade Simmons, Ritchie Schley, Dave Watson, etc.

Usually, names aren't used, but it's pretty clear who is implied. The articles usually try to lead the reader to believe that these guys' riding is no longer valid, and that new school riders are somehow more "gnar" and the "real deal."

Cameron Zinc has an article in the latest Decline that basically says some of the old "freeride pioneers" need to hang it up so that newcomers can be invited to contests.

He says that some of the old-school riders are "milking it," and they're being invited to contests just because of who they are.

Lately, it seems that riders don't get any credit unless they're pulling 360's off drops, tailwhipping doubles, and backflipping everything in sight.

I disagree with this whole stance. New school slopestyle contests and freeriding would not even exist today without those old guys going out back in the day and sending it off huge cliffs and ladder-bridge drops.

Guys like Schley and Simmons invented the whole freeride movement. I think that the new slopestyle contests put too much emphasis on street and BMX skills.

Furthermore, 20" BMX pros are still light years ahead of guys like Cam Zinc and Paul Basagoita. When a mountain biker does a 720 over a big set of doubles, he's pretty much sponsered immediately, yet in the BMX world, the pros can pretty much all do that and add a tailwhip no-hander to it, and they don't get all hyped up like these new-school mountainbikers.

I'd like to see the return of big mountain-style freeride competitions like the RedBull Rampage. I think we need to keep the "mountain" in mountain biking. In defense of those aformentioned "freeride pioneers," they're still killing it.

I've had the chance to see Wade Simmons ride in person, both at the Rampage and in Whistler, as well as seen some of the crazy lines he's guinea-pigged over the years while shooting films. He is THE smoothest rider I've ever seen, and he's done stunts that no one else will try.

Having met him, I've also found him to be an outstanding spokesperson for the sport, with a genuine positive attitude and not a trace of arrogance.

I think that there should be respect for these old-school riders, and I've been annoyed that there has been a lack of it in the press lately. Rather, it seems they're being hung out to dry.

This is just a rant I've been thinking about for the last few weeks. I think it can provide for an interesting discussion. Your opinions?.....
Fixed.
 

DirtyMike

Turbo Fluffer
Aug 8, 2005
14,313
902
My own world inside my head
The Kadvang said:
So like you said, the new slopestyle contests are based on BMX ish skills. Why should the 'old' pros be invited, when they don't have those skills? They rip, just not in that sort of contest. Therefore, why should they get an automatic spot that could be taken by and up and coming rider?

Solution: make everyone qualify.

An Old Pro such as simmons would Still get in......Sorry Check that one a littel further Simmons does a Ton of Street style So he still should Hold s Spot in teh slopestyle/Bmx stuff......Even with a Prequal day You will still see simmons there With Shley Judging at the least.....I Have more than a Few Older Vids with simmons hammering out some serious Street style on his 24"
________
Live sex webshows
 
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ghettogt76

Monkey
Dec 5, 2001
410
0
Pleasant Hill, Kali'fo'nya
I pretty much agree with kail. For some reason, I prefer to watch simmons or schley riding some gnarly northshore stuff instead of watching these new skool guys just do BMX tricks off everything. When I first got into DH/freeride, I watched simmons and schley, so maybe that's why I prefer to watch them instead of the new guys. :confused:
 

smedford

Monkey
Jan 31, 2004
400
0
Bellingham, WA
I think part of it is this. The things the old schoolers do, still seem possible. Then guys come out and do stuff that there is no way in hell I would try. It is easier to identify with the old school guys. Then again I am old school, and as such, biased.
 

blt2ride

Turbo Monkey
May 25, 2005
2,334
0
Chatsworth
kail said:
Alright, I know this is the DH forum, but more people post here than on the FR forum, and I'd guess that most of you would consider yourselves freeriders as well as racers. Anyway, I've been noticing in a lot of publications lately, namely Decline and Mountain Bike action, a trend of hating on some of the old-school freeriders such as Wade Simmons, Ritchie Schley, Dave Watson, etc. Usually, names aren't used, but it's pretty clear who is implied. The articles usually try to lead the reader to believe that these guys' riding is no longer valid, and that new school riders are somehow more "gnar" and the "real deal." Cameron Zinc has an article in the latest Decline that basically says some of the old "freeride pioneers" need to hang it up so that newcomers can be invited to contests. He says that some of the old-school riders are "milking it," and they're being invited to contests just because of who they are. Lately, it seems that riders don't get any credit unless they're pulling 360's off drops, tailwhipping doubles, and backflipping everything in sight. I disagree with this whole stance. New school slopestyle contests and freeriding would not even exist today without those old guys going out back in the day and sending it off huge cliffs and ladder-bridge drops. Guys like Schley and Simmons invented the whole freeride movement. I think that the new slopestyle contests put too much emphasis on street and BMX skills. Furthermore, 20" BMX pros are still light years ahead of guys like Cam Zinc and Paul Basagoita. When a mountain biker does a 720 over a big set of doubles, he's pretty much sponsered immediately, yet in the BMX world, the pros can pretty much all do that and add a tailwhip no-hander to it, and they don't get all hyped up like these new-school mountainbikers. I'd like to see the return of big mountain-style freeride competitions like the RedBull Rampage. I think we need to keep the "mountain" in mountain biking. In defense of those aformentioned "freeride pioneers," they're still killing it. I've had the chance to see Wade Simmons ride in person, both at the Rampage and in Whistler, as well as seen some of the crazy lines he's guinea-pigged over the years while shooting films. He is THE smoothest rider I've ever seen, and he's done stunts that no one else will try. Having met him, I've also found him to be an outstanding spokesperson for the sport, with a genuine positive attitude and not a trace of arrogance. I think that there should be respect for these old-school riders, and I've been annoyed that there has been a lack of it in the press lately. Rather, it seems they're being hung out to dry. This is just a rant I've been thinking about for the last few weeks. I think it can provide for an interesting discussion. Your opinions?.....
It's just progression. In 7 or 8 years, other people will be having this exact conversation, but instead of calling Simmons and Richie S. old school, it will be Kyle and Zinc who are old school. Personally, I like the change, at least guys like Kyle and Zinc do more than just huck...
 

slang

Monkey
Apr 20, 2005
130
0
The Kadvang said:
So like you said, the new slopestyle contests are based on BMX ish skills. Why should the 'old' pros be invited, when they don't have those skills? They rip, just not in that sort of contest. Therefore, why should they get an automatic spot that could be taken by and up and coming rider?

Solution: make everyone qualify.
bang on.

A "new school" contest = "new school" riding. I've personally been to and shot at crankworx slopestyle qualifying, finals, and the ameteur crankworx contest, and I can tell you first hand that there were A LOT of riders who should've been in the slopestyle finals instead of the "old school" riders.

How about this for example?
http://photos.nsmb.com/showimage.php?i=1083&catid=searchresults&searchid=847
another angle:
http://photos.nsmb.com/showimage.php?i=1082&c=searchresults&searchid=847

Or Dylan Korba 360ing off the top of the quarter pipe in the AM crankworx?

BTW: who cares if they paved the way for us? You keep refering to how bmx is light years away from us, why dont you bring up the fact that bmxers dont get invited to compete in the biggest contests because 'they paved the way for bmx'?
 

.:Jeenyus:.

Turbo Monkey
Feb 23, 2004
2,832
1
slc
slang said:
bang on.

A "new school" contest = "new school" riding. I've personally been to and shot at crankworx slopestyle qualifying, finals, and the ameteur crankworx contest, and I can tell you first hand that there were A LOT of riders who should've been in the slopestyle finals instead of the "old school" riders.

How about this for example?
http://photos.nsmb.com/showimage.php?i=1083&catid=searchresults&searchid=847
another angle:
http://photos.nsmb.com/showimage.php?i=1082&c=searchresults&searchid=847

Or Dylan Korba 360ing off the top of the quarter pipe in the AM crankworx?

BTW: who cares if they paved the way for us? You keep refering to how bmx is light years away from us, why dont you bring up the fact that bmxers dont get invited to compete in the biggest contests because 'they paved the way for bmx'?
:stupid:

I would still rather watch Simmons and Watson ride, but they just don't cut it in a judged competition.

Smoothness is out and gnar-gnar half-landed tricks are in.
 

sanjuro

Tube Smuggler
Sep 13, 2004
17,411
0
SF
Don't forget about the history and evolution of mountain biking. It was a bunch of roadies (like Gary Fisher and Tom Ritchey) who said, "look at all this trail. We need some bikes to ride it."

Watching the old school riders drop off something big is the natural evolution of finding new trails. Even the stunts they built were an extention of the forest (which for whatever reason could not be ridden).

Seeing guys do tailwhips and backflips are cool, but is not the essence of riding. Someone make a good point about BMX comps and point scoring. While that kind of riding on mt bikes would probably bring in more TV viewers than watching guys carve a singletrack, to many riders it is not mountain biking.
 

BC VAN

Monkey
May 4, 2005
624
0
old school / new school....it's all good to me, everyone is out ripping in thier own way and style.... i think the problem is that it's a judged event.....any judged event is going to have controversy. this could be never ending.... like it said in a earlier post years from now we will hear the same thing about kyle and cam and the current
"new school".
 

Sir_Crackien

Turbo Monkey
Feb 7, 2004
2,052
0
alex. va. usa.
all i got to say is that the old school riders rock much more than the new school ones. i'd rather watch a real north shore contest instead of these hugh open man made every thing parks.

GET BACK IN THE WOODS! and the old school will rock the new school
 

manhattanprjkt83

Rusty Trombone
Jul 10, 2003
9,080
514
Nilbog
Sir_Crackien said:
all i got to say is that the old school riders rock much more than the new school ones. i'd rather watch a real north shore contest instead of these hugh open man made every thing parks.

GET BACK IN THE WOODS! and the old school will rock the new school
But arent there North shore contests? These new slopestyle contests which sparked all this discussion are not about the woods at all...They are about slopestyle which is a whole new arena...I say give everyone the chance to qualify, if you are an old guy and can hang more power to you, if you cant see you later...It's progression, and you cant hold the sport back because you dont want to step on someone's toes. I dont think there is any lack of respect for the vets, everyone realizes that they paved the way, but i can understand why people are going to get sour if they keep milking positions in these contests...
 

Dogboy

Turbo Monkey
Apr 12, 2004
3,131
253
Chapel Hill, NC
manhattanprjkt83 said:
Amen, this would be the solution to the whole issue that is going on now. We all know who would qualify...all the younger up and comers...
Yeah, if they didn't blow themselves up the night before qualifying:rolleyes:
 

manhattanprjkt83

Rusty Trombone
Jul 10, 2003
9,080
514
Nilbog
Dogboy said:
Yeah, if they didn't blow themselves up the night before qualifying:rolleyes:
man i see this scene going exactly where the snowboard scene went...partying is just a reality with it, i know alot of guys that can party insane style the night before then rally in the morning...
 

greg447

Monkey
Jul 22, 2005
245
0
new hampshire
I think that guys like Wade and Watson and even Matt Hunter all have a smooth style and i think thats whats important, it really doesent matter about doing tailwhips and backflips because usually you cant connect those tricks and it doesent flow well, and whatts the point of watchign half a** tricks that cannont be landed well. I think Barclaw is probably the best of the so called "new school riders" even though he isent exactly new. He has style mixed in with the tricks which adds an eye pleasing effect to watching, guys like zink and whatnot jsut dont have it.
 

OGRipper

Turbo Monkey
Feb 3, 2004
9,766
192
NORCAL is the hizzle
It would be great to have qualifiers. But don't blame the riders. At the highest level, these events exist to get media coverage for sponsors. Sponsors who want their riders and products to get some of that coverage. Add the impossible subjectivity of judging, and to me these comps are more like exhibitions than anything else. Fun exhibitions, but still.
 

Banshee Rider

Turbo Monkey
Jul 31, 2003
1,456
10
Slopestyle is glorified bmx on mountain bikes. I get no entertainment out of it at all.

Regardless of how many "tr1x" the new school riders have in their bag, I havent seen one who has the flow, style, and smoothness of old school pioneers like simmons/schley/watson/shandro. I'd much rather watch the old school guys throw down and make everything look easy, than a bunch of young bucks BS their way thru the air with some half-assed bmx trick. If that crap mattered in MOUNTAIN biking i'd just watch a bmx video and see them throw down tricks with 10x the difficulty factor.

Why is this thread in the DOWNHILL forum anyway???
 

dhmtbj

Monkey
Jan 30, 2002
469
1
Boston
While I am impressed by rediculously large drops and tricks, I still love and prefer watching a truely talented rider flowing through a section. Simmons section in the collective is one of my favorite sections in a movie. He doesn't do anything that stands out at first notice but if you really watch you can see how precise and smooth he is riding. It is remarkable.
 

Jeremy R

<b>x</b>
Nov 15, 2001
9,514
586
behind you with a snap pop
Ah man, I thought this thread was gonna be about old school guys like Nico and Tomac Vs. new school guys like Hill and Neethling.
But alas, it turned out to be another "Which group of hucktastic jibbers would you rather watch ride?"

I will take neither for 2000, Alex.
Seriously, how many times can we have this conversation here in the DH forum?
 

dhmtbj

Monkey
Jan 30, 2002
469
1
Boston
Jeremy R said:
Ah man, I thought this thread was gonna be about old school guys like Nico and Tomac Vs. new school guys like Hill and Neethling.
But alas, it turned out to be another "Which group of hucktastic jibbers would you rather watch ride?"

I will take neither for 2000, Alex.
Seriously, how many times can we have this conversation here in the DH forum?
that would have been a far more awesome thread...
 

ghettogt76

Monkey
Dec 5, 2001
410
0
Pleasant Hill, Kali'fo'nya
dhmtbj said:
While I am impressed by rediculously large drops and tricks, I still love and prefer watching a truely talented rider flowing through a section. Simmons section in the collective is one of my favorite sections in a movie. He doesn't do anything that stands out at first notice but if you really watch you can see how precise and smooth he is riding. It is remarkable.
I agree 100%. I'm impressed the new riders can do tricks, but they're not HALF as smooth as the old skool riders like watson, simmons (my personal fav) and schley. As said before, the huge tricks, to me, isn't mountain biking. Mountain biking is flow and smoothness, not just tricks. If I wanted trucks I'd watch some BMX dirt jumpers (those guys are nuts).
 

dhbuilder

jingoistic xenophobe
Aug 10, 2005
3,040
0
kids and their tricks come and go. but old schoolers just keep rippin right on by em.
 

leprechaun

Turbo Monkey
Apr 17, 2004
1,009
0
SLC,Ut
I'm so old school.I can only do 1 handers and no footers like Richie.

It was a bit of a drag to see Van Dine not qualify after doing a barrel roll on his DH bike and some other guys got in doing my kind of tricks.

I'm just glad i'm not 'milkin it' so i don't get called out in mags!!!

It was way cool to see Robbie Bourdon pulling backflips in NWD 6.He's mixin it up.
 

kidwoo

Celebrating No-Pants Day
Aug 25, 2003
22,554
2,226
In my pants
I love the "smooth" comparison.

Anybody can look smooth doing moto whips and x-ups.

Swinging a tailwhip over a 30 foot double or spinning a 360 off a 12 foot drop has a lot more room for error.

That said, who cares what a 19 year old has to say when he's personally attacking the people who helped create the sport and equipment he's riding. Qualifying is a good idea but take it out on the event organizers, not the guys doing the riding.
 

Scurry

Monkey
May 9, 2003
276
0
Boston
You are comparing aples to oranges to pears. I do think the older guys shouldnt be in these contests anymore if there are people that are doing the same things but throwing a 360 in or something. Sure they are originators, and they will always be shown as that. I really could go into it much more but dont feal like it.
 

manhattanprjkt83

Rusty Trombone
Jul 10, 2003
9,080
514
Nilbog
Regarding these comments about the younger guys not being "smooth" while tailwhiping a 20 ft drop...Are you kidding me! Like mentioned above, if Simmons does a 25' drop smooth as hell thats awesome, im not taking anything away from the guy, but if straight can tailwhip it, he definately deserves to have the top spot...Do you expect people to begin busting these tricks and just be smooth as glass? It took time for all the vets to land drops smooth...Now it is just at another level. Give it some time and Darren's 360 road gap wont be such a jaw dropper...The riders are just getting better...
 

stiksandstones

Turbo Monkey
May 21, 2002
5,081
25
Orange, Ca
There needs to be respect to old school riders of racing and freeriding-BUT, only respect if they have true talent...Schley for example, cool that he has been around, but I have never thought he was all that rad...same goes for some of the other dinosaurs.
There is however 'old guys' that either are still pretty rad-OR once had some awesome skills, I give respect to that. But the guys that are famous for nothing can beat it.

And finally-please use the return key when writing a 20 page rant.
 

The Kadvang

I rule
Apr 13, 2004
3,501
0
six five oh
DirtyMike said:
An Old Pro such as simmons would Still get in......Sorry Check that one a littel further Simmons does a Ton of Street style So he still should Hold s Spot in teh slopestyle/Bmx stuff......Even with a Prequal day You will still see simmons there With Shley Judging at the least.....I Have more than a Few Older Vids with simmons hammering out some serious Street style on his 24"
The results speak for themselves.
 

Zach Dank

Turbo Monkey
Jun 28, 2005
1,300
0
Gnarcal
kidwoo said:
That said, who cares what a 19 year old has to say when he's personally attacking the people who helped create the sport and equipment he's riding. Qualifying is a good idea but take it out on the event organizers, not the guys doing the riding.

Give this man a prize.
 

OGRipper

Turbo Monkey
Feb 3, 2004
9,766
192
NORCAL is the hizzle
stiksandstones said:
There needs to be respect to old school riders of racing and freeriding...
Saying that guys like Simmons, Schley, etc., should have to qualify for a slopestyle event is not disrespecting them or their prior contributions to the sport. DH pioneers don't get to race if they are not fast enough to qualify. Lopes doesn't get to race 4X if he doesn't make the cut. That doesn't mean they are being disrespected. To that extent I agree with what Zink says about everyone getting a fair shot to ride.

But like I said in my earlier post, slopestyle is more subjective, and (to me) more like a sponsor-driven exhibition. It is also a relatively new format of competition. In that context I don't have a problem seeing those "old-school" riders get some coverage, since from my perspective they are better ambassadors than guys like Zink, who think it's cool to bitch and moan about the people who help pay their bills.

Basically, I see slopestyle as like a private party. The hosts get to invite the guests, and nobody has an absolute right to be there.
 

DirtyMike

Turbo Fluffer
Aug 8, 2005
14,313
902
My own world inside my head
The original Post was left as a rant about Magazines Article's Etc that were Bagging on Afformentioned Old schoolers that Should be Hanging It uip and Letting the New guys in.........
Well Thats Just it..... There Not hanging it up And to this Day are still making teh Youngens Work For it... And Yes Alot of people here need to admit that while they race they also Freeride

Anywho This was just a quick Reminder that originally the post was about Them being Disrespected and Told they Should stop when in Fact they can still go..... Cool Post though.... Ill think of another to Rile everyone up
________
Child Zoloft
 
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