Do we think Factory Connection need to step into the bike market?
- Thread starter Trekrules
- Start date
It would be just like Push, HippyTech, Suspension Experts, ect.
Suspension Experts!!! Call Kevin, great to work with..
Cecil
Cecil
If they develop their own shock/fork then YES!
are they looking for ways to lose money?
^^ that.
we need more varied OEM/retail units, both to push the R&D and get the manufacturing and SHIMming basics solidified. aftermarket tuners that we have now are good enough.
@JackTrade: Who the **** said that current MTB suspension is bad? Man I've ridden bad suspension in my days (1998 Mr T + RS Super DeLuxe).
Send your stuff to Push or someone else who knows what they are doing. Its the best possible 500$ investment on a bike.
Send your stuff to Push or someone else who knows what they are doing. Its the best possible 500$ investment on a bike.
In my opinion, mountain bike suspension technology has actually surpassed the majority of motocross suspension. Nowhere else do you find stuff as nicely made, as light, as versatile or as low friction as MTB suspension. When it gets to the point that you have a full aluminium air shock with adjustable volume, well controlled high and low speed compression and rebound, controlled progression to the compression damping and a very finely tuned platform adjustment (a properly tuned RP23 Boost Valve does all of the above), you're already substantially above the level of standard MX equipment.
Not to say that there isn't room for improvement in either field, there definitely is, but the motocross inspiration has made the mark it needed to make, and I think it's now time for the MTB suspension industry to stand on its own two feet and lead the charge with its own R&D. It's cool to see the MTB companies pushing forward with their own technology and ideas - some of the stuff that's in all-mountain forks these days is ridiculously refined, who would have thought 10 years ago that you'd be able to have external adjustments for travel (that adjusted spring rate to suit), LSC, HSC, rebound, lockout, and lockout threshold all in a 160mm singlecrown fork with a tool-free through-axle that weighs as much as XC forks did back then but that will cope with almost DH race levels of abuse? Personally I think that stuff is even more impressive than the DH or MX stuff!
Thats all fine and dandy just let me know when they have say 20 compression or rebound adjustments that actually work and say seals that last two years instead of two months. You like replacing seals really? I mean come on every month spurting oil give me a break. 45 minute motos at 35 MPH beats a 3 minute DH track any day PERIOD!!!!
Yeah the DH suspension bits aren't even touching modern moto suspension when it comes to seal durability or chassis smoothness. Proper alignement in forks, and resistance to shaft bind from sideloading is still a long way off. High speed compression circuits that are actually functional and don't call their inherent hydro-locking tendencies "damping" are hard to come by on MTB shocks too, as well as adjustment ranges that are useful and sensible.
Only 2 forks on the market that I know of use seals that are worth a damn, and the number of cycling hours that those can withstand compared to a 2010+ Showa/KYB/WP fork is probably an order of magnitude different. No sealed damper in the MTB world has a service interval that can compare to a Twin-Chamber moto fork either. The way they're made is laughable in comparison.
The emphasis on weight savings with structural durability and versatility IS something that MTB has really shined on. As you said, a decade of R&D into this field did yield some impressive results. I find the DH-able long travel singlecrowns to be more impressive than almost all of the dual crown fork offerings given the structural disadvantage and the additional adjustments worked into the unit.
Overall technology and integration? Probably surpassed that of moto suspension, yes. Pure performance under the harshest inputs and weirdest loading scenarios? Still lightyears away. Durability? Still nowhere close.
Seals are pretty much the biggest downfall of MTB suspension, I'll give you that - however you should really compare the amount of stiction a motorbike shock or fork has compared to a bike one (take them out of the bike and move them by hand with no springs). It's not comparable. Motorbikes get away with it because you have effectively have a 100kg of mass damper that helps overcome that amount of friction easily - a DH bike has about one tenth of that as sprung mass. That alone makes a phenomenal difference to the way the suspension behaves, because any force transmitted through the suspension has to accelerate 100kg of sprung mass before it begins to push on the rider.
As far as working adjustments, check out pretty well everything made by Fox, BOS, Cane Creek and Manitou for the last 5 years... the increments can't be as fine as moto stuff because the variation in total sprung mass (percentage wise) is much bigger on a DH bike - you could have a 50kg kid + 10kg sprung mass, or a 110kg stomper + 10kg sprung mass on any given DH bike, which means the ratio of heaviest to lightest is about 2:1. However on a MX bike you could have that 50kg kid or the 110kg guy, each plus the 100kg sprung mass means the ratio of heaviest to lightest is about 1.3:1. Smaller range of weights means you can get away with finer increments, bigger range of weights means you need more overall range from the adjustments which in turn means larger increments.
You will NEVER EVER get a DH bike to be as smooth over rough terrain (while maintaining rideability) as a MX bike until you add another 90kg to the sprung mass of the DH bike. It is mathematically impossible.
Also I'm not saying these qualities are true of EVERY product on the market - we definitely still have more dud products on the market than the MX world does. Without naming names, some things out there just make you shake your head and wonder for sure, but what I'm getting at is that there actually isn't much left for "us" (being the MTB industry in general) to learn from MX suspension.
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Yeah the DH suspension bits aren't even touching modern moto suspension when it comes to seal durability or chassis smoothness.
Chassis smoothness untrue, seal durability is relatively easy to achieve if you can afford to have 10lbs of seal drag - and Marz and BOS have proven that you can most definitely make bike seals that last. The technology IS here.
Marz is still the golden standard for seals as far as I know, and last a LONG time for a mountain bike...but still nowhere near as many operating hours as a dirt bike. ~100 hrs of RIDE TIME on a moto for seals, and usually that's being replaced out of general service and not necessity. Pretty sure the Marzocchi seals are good for 30-50 hrs at most and that's basically as good as it's going to get for MTB. Rear shocks are generally pretty far ahead of forks for seals though in recent years, I'll give you that.
Proper alignement in forks, and resistance to shaft bind from side loading is still a long way off. High speed compression circuits that are actually functional and don't call their inherent hydro-locking tendencies "damping" are hard to come by on MTB shocks too, as well as adjustment ranges that are useful and sensible.
Yeah that's just flat out wrong sorry. Maybe if you were talking about suspension from ten years ago that'd be applicable.
Not sure which part you're referring to here, but every fork on the market except for inverted forks with floating axle alignment suffers from SOME sort of binding when the axle is tightened, whether its bowed in or bowed out. And with the rear end flex and insane side-loads put on DH frames, there's no way that MTB rear shocks can't bind a bit at the scale and weight point they're built at. They're way too small with way too much load translated through the frame to them. Some frames are obviously more prone to this than others.
Also, peak shaft speeds before hydraulic locking is around 30% higher on dirt bike dampers, simply due to diameters, piston porting, and most importantly, porting in the bridge of rear shocks which is a giant choke point in any damper. Even with the most robust piston on a DH bike shock, it's probably still not going to be able to work with those shaft speeds.
Only 2 forks on the market that I know of use seals that are worth a damn, and the number of cycling hours that those can withstand compared to a 2010+ Showa/KYB/WP fork is probably an order of magnitude different. No sealed damper in the MTB world has a service interval that can compare to a Twin-Chamber moto fork either. The way they're made is laughable in comparison.
Laughable? Like I said - you can make things as complex and durable as you want IF you can compromise on weight and friction. MX bikes can, DH bikes can't.
KYB and Showa rear shocks have a bladder system that's reliable and robust, as do some of the WP forks. No reason it can't be properly designed and integrated into a MTB fork that isn't pressurized without adding excess weight. Yeah, it's laughable if you look at the service intervals those things require. Being a "race" fork is not an excuse either.
If I were just riding non-stop rocky terrain that demanded pure suspension performance over any kind of weight savings, I would rather have a heavier, more durable and more robust suspension setup on my DH bike. But since both of those things are factors, development over the years has placed the current product at an acceptable balance of the two. It could be lighter, by a fair bit, but the performance would probably start seriously holding people back and causing major lack of control. It could be heavier, have amazing high speed performance, and be durable as hell....but then you'd get all the whiners in their TLD pajamas complaining that it hinders their ability to dance while riding bikes.
My point is, there's still significant room for improvement with the current offerings. More importantly than making things heavier, it would make things more expensive. By a lot, actually. You could have some seriously works level stuff on your bike, have it be lightweight, have it be durable...and the front and rear set would probably cost ~$3500-4000.
Chassis smoothness untrue, seal durability is relatively easy to achieve if you can afford to have 10lbs of seal drag - and Marz and BOS have proven that you can most definitely make bike seals that last. The technology IS here.
Marz is still the golden standard for seals as far as I know, and last a LONG time for a mountain bike...but still nowhere near as many operating hours as a dirt bike. ~100 hrs of RIDE TIME on a moto for seals, and usually that's being replaced out of general service and not necessity. Pretty sure the Marzocchi seals are good for 30-50 hrs at most and that's basically as good as it's going to get for MTB. Rear shocks are generally pretty far ahead of forks for seals though in recent years, I'll give you that.
Proper alignement in forks, and resistance to shaft bind from side loading is still a long way off. High speed compression circuits that are actually functional and don't call their inherent hydro-locking tendencies "damping" are hard to come by on MTB shocks too, as well as adjustment ranges that are useful and sensible.
Yeah that's just flat out wrong sorry. Maybe if you were talking about suspension from ten years ago that'd be applicable.
Not sure which part you're referring to here, but every fork on the market except for inverted forks with floating axle alignment suffers from SOME sort of binding when the axle is tightened, whether its bowed in or bowed out. And with the rear end flex and insane side-loads put on DH frames, there's no way that MTB rear shocks can't bind a bit at the scale and weight point they're built at. They're way too small with way too much load translated through the frame to them. Some frames are obviously more prone to this than others.
Also, peak shaft speeds before hydraulic locking is around 30% higher on dirt bike dampers, simply due to diameters, piston porting, and most importantly, porting in the bridge of rear shocks which is a giant choke point in any damper. Even with the most robust piston on a DH bike shock, it's probably still not going to be able to work with those shaft speeds.
Only 2 forks on the market that I know of use seals that are worth a damn, and the number of cycling hours that those can withstand compared to a 2010+ Showa/KYB/WP fork is probably an order of magnitude different. No sealed damper in the MTB world has a service interval that can compare to a Twin-Chamber moto fork either. The way they're made is laughable in comparison.
Laughable? Like I said - you can make things as complex and durable as you want IF you can compromise on weight and friction. MX bikes can, DH bikes can't.
KYB and Showa rear shocks have a bladder system that's reliable and robust, as do some of the WP forks. No reason it can't be properly designed and integrated into a MTB fork that isn't pressurized without adding excess weight. Yeah, it's laughable if you look at the service intervals those things require. Being a "race" fork is not an excuse either.
If I were just riding non-stop rocky terrain that demanded pure suspension performance over any kind of weight savings, I would rather have a heavier, more durable and more robust suspension setup on my DH bike. But since both of those things are factors, development over the years has placed the current product at an acceptable balance of the two. It could be lighter, by a fair bit, but the performance would probably start seriously holding people back and causing major lack of control. It could be heavier, have amazing high speed performance, and be durable as hell....but then you'd get all the whiners in their TLD pajamas complaining that it hinders their ability to dance while riding bikes.
My point is, there's still significant room for improvement with the current offerings. More importantly than making things heavier, it would make things more expensive. By a lot, actually. You could have some seriously works level stuff on your bike, have it be lightweight, have it be durable...and the front and rear set would probably cost ~$3500-4000.
Wait...what? Are you kidding? My 10 year old, off the shelf tune, improperly sprung, bottom of the line moto fork feels orders of magnitude better than the 2012, top of the line, custom tuned for my weight, works treatment, personal fork of a Marzocchi engineer 888 that I got to ride for a weekend. And that 888 is wayyy better than any boxxer or 40 I've tried.
As I said, that's because you have a ~100kg inertial damper between you and the fork on a moto. Take that fork off and put it on your DH bike, I guarantee it'll be the worst feeling thing you've ever ridden when you don't have the weight of the MX bike on it. I never said DH bikes were a smoother ride than MX bikes, in fact quite the opposite - but DH bikes have much more difficult demands placed on the suspension, believe it or not! I could quite seriously make your bike's suspension feel substantially better by simply strapping 50kg to your downtube. Sounds like bulls**t, I know, but it's not.
I realise what I'm claiming goes against the grain of mainstream belief here, but humour me - take your MX fork or shock off the bike, pull the springs out/off, do the same with your MTB stuff, then move them both by hand and tell me which one has less stiction. Having had the opportunity to do this with some more or less stock 2010 Showa stuff recently, I was pretty surprised to find how much friction there was compared to any well maintained current DH fork or shock. If that level of stiction was acceptable, it'd be really easy to build seals for DH stuff that lasted forever.
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Definitely, if money is no object then things can always be improved. However weight really is such a crucial factor (at least in terms of sales) that the design mentality for MTB suspension is and has to be something similar to the 1960s F1 cars - "Simplify and add lightness".
Please also note that I'm not saying bike suspension is perfect, or can't be improved - trust me I'm highly critical of a LOT of suspension items. What I am saying is that bike suspension is in fact up to spec with moto technology (nobody is using cast crowns for starters, or steel stanchions...), and we have more or less reached the point where continually seeking to emulate MX suspension isn't necessarily going to be especially beneficial anymore (whereas getting rid of crappy plastic ported dampers in favour of shimmed units did make a huge difference) - development now has to come from within the bike industry (and it has been for years anyway - there is a lot of cool stuff in bike suspension that the moto world doesn't need or use). Pushing for more reliability is definitely a good thing, and as you have alluded to, bumping the price up substantially to tighten tolerances whilst keeping things light could achieve that - but nobody wants to pay $4000 for a fork.
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I thought I'd chime in as I often read a lot of misinformation when it comes to the comparison between MTB and Moto suspension. Most of you know us for our MTB division, but here at PUSH we also have a full scale Moto division.
Here's a link to our recent Moto Open House: PUSH Moto Open House | Facebook
Anyway, Moto suspension has much lower friction than MTB. More, Moto suspension stays at a consistent friction level over a much longer period of time. This is mainly due to full oil bath with low friction surface coatings. Hard Chromed and DLC coated inner fork tubes, Kashima coated (yes, Moto has been using Kashima for a decade) damping rods, etc. Add in SKF Moto fork seals(again, came before the current MTB units) and you have incredibly low friction that is consistent for a much longer service interval.
Darren
Here's a link to our recent Moto Open House: PUSH Moto Open House | Facebook
Anyway, Moto suspension has much lower friction than MTB. More, Moto suspension stays at a consistent friction level over a much longer period of time. This is mainly due to full oil bath with low friction surface coatings. Hard Chromed and DLC coated inner fork tubes, Kashima coated (yes, Moto has been using Kashima for a decade) damping rods, etc. Add in SKF Moto fork seals(again, came before the current MTB units) and you have incredibly low friction that is consistent for a much longer service interval.
Darren
Back in the day, Avalanche, Risse, Stratos and some others were doing higher end valving with proper circuits and everything, the mainstream companies were cheap and just used "whatever" seemed like a good idea, no matter how crap-tastic it was, and there have been some turds, whether it was because we didn't know better on a bike, or because of limits of engineering, but mostly I attribute it to being lazy, as the technology had existed for quite a while previously. So the high end limited production companies were either at or only 5-10 years behind the moto technology, whereas the bike stuff was about 30 years behind or more. Sometimes due to damping, sometimes due to chassi-"wtf is this?".
Now things are much better with CCDB, RC4, Vivid, EvoRC3tiwhatever(could be better tho), and so on. You can finally go in there and re-shim the stacks(because there are actually stacks in there!), even install higher flow/different pistons yourself, although this is still somewhat limited. While Push is going to insist that their service is critical, I think it is less so now. Sure, some products are still turds, have not been updated, or are just widely out of spec for the actual application, but in the last 5 years it seems like the bike suspension industry has jumped at least 20 years as far as damping technology...finally. Yes, they still have a way to go, and yes Push and others will always have a market in doing the "specific" setup for a rider and weight (like me that has lost 60lbs since I bought one shock, 40lbs from another), but I'm happy to see most manufacturers falling in a line finally, without doing crazy things like overall compression adjustments that just block flow, ported dampers with no real damping control, elastomers, and so on.
Now things are much better with CCDB, RC4, Vivid, EvoRC3tiwhatever(could be better tho), and so on. You can finally go in there and re-shim the stacks(because there are actually stacks in there!), even install higher flow/different pistons yourself, although this is still somewhat limited. While Push is going to insist that their service is critical, I think it is less so now. Sure, some products are still turds, have not been updated, or are just widely out of spec for the actual application, but in the last 5 years it seems like the bike suspension industry has jumped at least 20 years as far as damping technology...finally. Yes, they still have a way to go, and yes Push and others will always have a market in doing the "specific" setup for a rider and weight (like me that has lost 60lbs since I bought one shock, 40lbs from another), but I'm happy to see most manufacturers falling in a line finally, without doing crazy things like overall compression adjustments that just block flow, ported dampers with no real damping control, elastomers, and so on.
I was going to mention the SKF seals for the moto, but they're still an aftermarket item as far as I know. A little spendy for a pair too...something like $70/pair?
A polished up KYB upper leg and stanchion with SKF seals should literally just fall onto itself. Huge change over stock, which is already pretty low friction.
^KTMs come with SKF fork seals.
See Fox 40. Not inverted, axle does not induce sideloading.
Current generation of the fork also has many of the things talked about here - SKF Seals, Kashima Coated uppers, and a proprietary oil specifically designed to reduce stiction - one that actually works in my experience (tested back to back with other oils in same fork).
Stiction is lower than current marzocchi 888 units, new inverted damper is reliable, and the seals aren't leaking after months of riding in the alps, in the mud.
I think bicycle suspension is doing great at the moment, a little fine tuning / re-valving and we're good to go.
I think Steve has pretty much covered why moto suspension feels better then MTB. The basic physics of the whole thing should make sense to anyone who isn't from parents that were related prior to marriage. The current crop of DH suspension makes even top of the line moto dampers look like kindergarten design by comparison. There are substantially different performance requirements placed upon human-powered vehicle suspension compared to motorised applications. Comparing the traits of the two fields is inevitably going to be an unfair comparison because (drum roll please) they're two different vehicles.
Seal lifespan differences? Seriously - pour 3 litres of oil into your fork and appreciate the increased lifespan of your seals whilst struggling to man-handle your front wheel out of the shuttle vehicle.
Tomorrow's topic - why can't MTB tyres roll as fast as the tyres on my velodrome bike.
Seal lifespan differences? Seriously - pour 3 litres of oil into your fork and appreciate the increased lifespan of your seals whilst struggling to man-handle your front wheel out of the shuttle vehicle.
Tomorrow's topic - why can't MTB tyres roll as fast as the tyres on my velodrome bike.
Do you really have a problem with parts durability and service intervals? Seriously? Parts are as durable as they were a few years ago but much much lighter. How many forks and shox did you break in the last 5 years? I doubt many.
For now you can have a durable downhill fork, that works great, can be serviced once a year and weights 2.7kg with a stem if you are willing to spend some cash on a boxxer wc + avy + a chunked stem/crown. Where do you see improvements over that for example?
Should.
But won't.
Because most MTB riders think instinctive riding skill is more important than understanding how things work... ironic, when they're quick to jump on blaming the bike if they lack the skill to do something.
I'm always surprised at how DH riders think Moto is the solution to anything except learning to deal with speed.
When you have 40hp and up driving your rear wheel, your chassis and suspension needs are radically different than when you have 0.2 hp driving your rear wheel.
A bunch, actually. All but a select few things I've been on in some way or another. I don't have a big problem with the service intervals since I don't ride that often anymore, but if I were on the trails with bigger features and at resorts a lot more often, I'd have a problem with it for sure.
I had a heavy season. Broken a finger, tried to break my back, broken a collarbone, had a full month of big resort riding in either very muddy or very dusty conditions. No durability or service interval problems. I had a problem with my air spring but that's because of the dust, not cleaining the bike and this happening after 3 years of use is not that suprising. Simply needed to clean it.
I may have low expectations but the only thing I could wish for is a bit more support in travel (probably more due to solo air not the damper). Aside from that the fork rocks.
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So...you're breaking more things on your body than on your bike? I think you're doing it wrong.
I have yet to see a boxxer that can do 1 weekend at a resort without feeling like total dogsh*t afterwards
Dorado, 888 no problem. 40...meh. Maybe not dogsh*t but definitely isn't feeling 100% after a resort weekend.
You might want to rethink how you ride.
^ must not ride resorts much.
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Am i the only person that can ride a 40 all season without having to do any maintenance or seals... did i mention im 220...
What are all you guys hacking it up on?
What are all you guys hacking it up on?
I think we need more flow regulating discs.
Thanks for your input Darren, and I'd definitely agree that moto stuff stays consistently good for substantially longer - but I am yet to find any moto suspension where I can literally move the fork by pushing on the bars with my little finger. That said, I haven't had the chance to play with any of the really fancy stuff - only stock units. I'd agree that there's less friction relative to the size and weight they're supporting, but at least with the Showa setup I was messing with a few weeks back, definitely not outright less stiction/drag force than a well maintained Fox MTB setup. I'd love to play with some of the high end gear though!
How have you guys found the transition into doing moto suspension, coming from a bicycle background?
Boxxer with Avy. Read carefully
Hack - I crash pretty randomly and often while my bike build is pretty well thought over. I wish I was as good at riding as I am at crashing.
maybe because moto bikes weigh a couple of pounds more then a bicycle...just by a few though
Mass only reduces acceleration, not force applied... doesn't mean anything when you've comparing stiction though, cos acceleration is virtually zero anyway
Steve, there's an illusion that moto forks are sticky when pushing them on the bike. A better way to feel the lack of friction would be to put the bike on the stand and pull up on the wheel, rather then pushing on the bars while on ground. There's several factors that lead to the illusion that moto forks are sticky when pushing on the bars. One of the largest being the static sag that a moto fork has. If you were feeling the forks off the bike you'd be amazed.
As for the transition, it was actually the other way around...I got my start with motorcycle suspension. I have worked in the bicycle industry as well, but I was working in the motorcycle industry prior to starting PUSH. Moto has always just been a part-time thing at PUSH for those who knew. This year was the first year we decided to commit to it full time. This season ended with one of our Pro's,Todd Bannister, walking away with both a 250-A and 450-A Dirstrict titles which we're pretty stoked about.
Darren
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youre still trying to move more mass compared to a mtb setup and unless you have giant pinkie fingers, then you arent going to move itMass only reduces acceleration, not force applied... doesn't mean anything when you've comparing stiction though, cos acceleration is virtually zero anyway
X2. With a fresh set of rebuilt Showa/KYB legs, or the really late model WP/KTM stuff (finish on the older stuff was crap in comparison), off the bike with SKF seals and honed/blueprinted bushings, the off-the-top feel is...ridiculous. Best way to feel is just pushing them down towards the floor with the leg by itself, preferably without the spring in it if you want to feel just the sliding surfaces.
Remember DH bikes don't sag under their own weight really. Maybe a couple mm. For a moto, the combined springrate of the front end is around 0.96 kg/mm, or ~50 #/in. Depending on your preload spacers or adjustment, the static sag of the front end is usually around 1.25-1.5", so you're trying to push on 60-75# of preloaded spring to determine stiction.
Also, the bushings on those bikes are meant to have a LONG break-in period. Not sure if you were pushing on a new one or not, but showroom floor forks will feel like nasty wild animal ass. 30 hours later, totally different.
sneak photos of the factory connection suspension, looks killer!
