[DirtMcGirk]

Watching Obama right now. Just said something to the extent of "Everyone needs to go to college."

Do you feel that having a college degree TODAY is what having just a high school diploma was maybe 40 years ago?

I have four or five BA/BS level degrees, a Master's degree and a JD. There are days honestly where I still don't feel educated enough. But at the same time, does everyone need to go to college? And if everyone goes, should we be all that surprised that college costs go up? More people means needing more services, more services means needing more money to provide them.

I thought about putting this in the politics forum, but I think this is bigger than politics.

Has the economic downturn cheapened the value of a degree? Or have universities, which now seem to be more like diploma mills, cheapened it for us? Mind you my first couple of degrees, Political Science and Philosophy, were useless degrees. But the Army also told me that, and insisted I got something with some use. So I ended up with degrees in Arab studies and in Computer Science. Those served and have continue to serve me well. But if I was in a traditional educational system, I wonder if I would have gotten anything more than the PS/Phil degrees...

 

[jonKranked]

the bigger issue that no one seems to want to address is that our public education system (k-12) is an absolute joke and disaster. Of course you'll need college education when your high school diploma doesn't mean anything.

 

[blackohio]

My gf is a micro biologist. Her degree has done little for her. It's an industry that doesn't seem to pay well and doesn't promote based on good lab practices. She has several co-workers with Master's that earn the same and have the same potential for advancement as her.

Im not sure my degree has ever helped me. I got my first graphic design job, with no design experience or knowledge based entirely around my sketch books. From there it was a mad dash to turn a useless art history degree into a design position.

 

[DirtMcGirk]

the bigger issue that no one seems to want to address is that our public education system (k-12) is an absolute joke and disaster. Of course you'll need college education when your high school diploma doesn't mean anything.

I graduated high school in 1996. I felt like I got a pretty decent education. I had access to AP/honors classes, took all of them I could fit in, had teachers who really seemed to give a **** about my future for the most part (a few cunts aside) and I felt pushed to strive to do my best.

I don't think that's true anymore. I have friends who teach now. They seem like poorly paid baby sitters.

 

[jonKranked]

I graduated high school in 1996. I felt like I got a pretty decent education. I had access to AP/honors classes, took all of them I could fit in, had teachers who really seemed to give a **** about my future for the most part (a few cunts aside) and I felt pushed to strive to do my best.

I don't think that's true anymore. I have friends who teach now. They seem like poorly paid baby sitters.

yea, i took all the AP/honors courses i could as well. I graduated in 2002. yes, you can make high school worthwhile. But the people who do are the exception. not the rule.

 

[blackohio]

I have no idea how it is now, but I graduated in '93 from High School. I was lucky enough to live in a wealthy town with a brand new high school and what seemed like great teachers. Sadly I was more concerned with going to hardcore shows and skateboarding to take full advantage of it.

Then in college I discovered I had a knack for talking panties off girls and staying up entirely too late. But really all my degree consisted of was memorizing slides.

 

[jimmydean]

High school was a joke for me. My college education is also a joke, but the piece of paper and transcripts from it have allowed me to have the job I have. I learned nothing and basically paid a large amount of money for a piece of paper and a line on my resume that fills the "BS degree" requirement on many job postings.

<edit> I dropped out of high school after finishing my Junior year in '88. I took the California High School Proficiency Exam (CHSPE) and blew it out of the water. I was told it was NOT a GED, but a high school diploma. The military felt otherwise.

 

[big-ted]

Tony Blair did the same thing in the UK ~15 years ago. It's a tough one IMO. Should everyone have the opportunity to go to college, regardless of economic or social status? Absolutely. Does society have a need for everyone to have college level degrees? Not at all. The end result in the UK is that we have a glut of people with meaningless degrees (media studies, history of art etc) who expect to walk into jobs offering reimbursement and responsibility that reflect the fact that "they have a degree". This leads to people with degrees and no experience of a field trying to tell people with no degree and a wealth of experience how to do their jobs, which leads to animosity and excessive bureaucracy. Further, for those people that DON'T go and get a college level education, and instead decide to learn a trade, you can expect to never be short of work and to make a very comfortable living for yourself.

/1st World problems

 

[jimmydean]

When I first started in software, there was a HUGE gap between people with degrees and the number of job openings (I think in '95 the stat was something like 30k graduates to fill 200k jobs). So people with real world experience got the "extra" jobs. The issue is that the gap narrowed leading up to the .com boom.

The result was 200k engineers for 30k openings by '01. Rather than sift through a stack of 200+ resumes for a single opening, hiring managers cut the stack down by adding hard requirements like years of experience and BS degree.

So in 2003 I went back to school to convert my AS degree into a BS degree. I learned nothing, but now my resume gets looked at. A lot, actually.

 

[ultraNoob]

I graduated HS at a Catholic School. I had no choice on the AP/Honors gig, it was mandatory for me. Graduated 8th in my class with National Honor Society and California Scholarship Federation annotations. Didn't know what I wanted to do after HS, even after being accepted to 9 colleges and being offered a free ride at the New Mexico Military Institute. Much to the dismay of my family, teachers, and friends, I joined the Army as an E-1.

Best thing I could have done. Went to SDSU 8 years older than everyone else. Seeing all the stupid that was being allowed to graduate was frightening. I was lucky enough to pay attention in HS, Army, and College. Even though I'm not in the career field I went to school for, I use and see much of what I learned as far back as 10th grade.

I think too much emphasis is put on "going to college", but in today's society of fast-faster-fasterer, seeing the college degree line on a resume is sufficient. DMG has a point. 40 years ago, the minimum standard was an HS diploma. Today it's either an AS/BS.

What the degree acronyms really mean:

HS: Half Sh!t
AS: All Sh!t
BS: Bull Sh!t
MS: More Sh!t
PhD: Piled Higher and Deeper in it

 

[jonKranked]

re: PhD's: I work with a TON of them. I'm absolutely astounded by how many of them have a decade+ in academia, and less than 2 yrs in a real business environment. They have no clue how to meet a deadline.

 

[sstalder5]

Having graduated high school recently (2010) I can confirm it's a complete joke. I took AP/IB classes so I actually learned something but only in 10th-12th grade, BUT, there were kids who received the exact same diploma I did who can't read. So according to the government my 3.5 gpa in AP/IB classes is the same as barely skating by in life skills classes, which are classes created for kids too dumb for regular classes, so they earn their diploma basically working as janitors for the school.

 

[CrabJoe StretchPants]

It all depends on the situation, who has the degree and how they use it. I got my BS in mechanical engineering, took what I learned and was able to apply it to real-world situations when applicable. After ~4 years as a full time engineer, I have seen first hand that advanced degrees are pretty worthless in 99% of the design/engineering industry.

That said, I saw college strictly as a formality/necessity to get a degree so I could get my foot in the door. I actually have much more respect for the old timers that worked up through the ranks, starting as draftsman/machinists/assemblers, etc, then finally being in a design position.

I got extremely lucky as I was able to get a good job just as the economy **** itself and manage to stick around. I know plenty of kids who were undeniably smarter/better in school than I was, who are now driving trucks, waiting tables, etc. So a degree or high GPA don't necessarily guarantee a successful career....or at least the instant start of one.

Funny related sidenote: just last week a kid with his MS in manufacturing engineer wanted to come in to talk with one of our mfg engineers........to ask them what it is mfg engineers do. Really? You spend 6 years in school and $XX,XXX for a degree that you know nothing about?

 

[blackohio]

i'd still like to talk to someone whose practically applying an art history degree.

 

[CrabJoe StretchPants]

i'd still like to talk to someone whose practically applying an art history degree.

Museum curator?

 

[jonKranked]

Museum curator?

indiana jones.

 

[eaterofdog]

FWIW, I have a lot of friends who have way more education than me, but make less money and have less. A degree will get you in the door, but it's the hustlers who progress from there.

 

[Krzr3000]

K-12 is good, with exception of unmotivated tenures. My wife is an elem teacher in an urban district, the level of expectation is much higher now. Its the parents, not the school for the most part. In the urban setting parents don't get involved unless the school does something wrong, then they suddenly care. College is still good IMO, its not an open pathway but if you make and maintain contacts and references to get your name out in your field you will be successful.

 

[Jim Mac]

This pretty sums up the experience my wife had teaching art history last semester at a local college - she was constantly challenged not only by students but also by some parents...and these were 3rd and 4th year students in a BA program!

To sum it up, here's SUNY Chancellor Nancy Zimpher on the state of students in NY from our local paper:

If one thing stands out from SUNY Chancellor Nancy Zimpher&#8217;s state of the university address, it&#8217;s the state of education in New York.There was Ms. Zimpher on Monday, talking of the shocking $70 million SUNY expends every year to provide remedial education to thousands of incoming freshmen who graduate high school unprepared to start even basic college courses.

 

[KavuRider]

Interesting thread.
I'm facing a dilemma related to this right now. Here in Phoenix, there are a ton of people going for jobs, so to cut it down a bit, they are requiring 4 year degrees for just about everything that pays over $10/hour.

I don't have a degree, but I've been working full time, steadily, for the last decade (I'm 27). I have a stable work history, never been fired, lots of knowledge. But no degree. So all I can seem to find are jobs that pay nothing. On the other hand, if I were to get a degree, that's a lot MORE money out of pocket and then I'd still have to find something that pays even higher to pay back the student loans I would be forced to take out. So its a catch-22. I wasn't ready for college when I graduated HS, I was working and really needed to focus on that rather than more schooling.

 

[blackohio]

Museum curator?

Alright besides the 56 people in the US doing that.

 

[binary visions]

I don't have a degree, but I've been working full time, steadily, for the last decade (I'm 27). I have a stable work history, never been fired, lots of knowledge. But no degree. So all I can seem to find are jobs that pay nothing. On the other hand, if I were to get a degree, that's a lot MORE money out of pocket and then I'd still have to find something that pays even higher to pay back the student loans I would be forced to take out. So its a catch-22. I wasn't ready for college when I graduated HS, I was working and really needed to focus on that rather than more schooling.

I was in a similar place. Wasn't ready for college - joining the work force seemed to be a better option.

I eventually ended up where I was eligible and qualified for a management position, but the VP was demanding that all managers have 4-year degrees.

I went back to school. You don't have to take out student loans - there are many inexpensive state schools (though you may have to relocate if there isn't one nearby). I paid about $4k/year, stacked up on credits and got my degree in 3 years, working 30+ hours/week, and graduated summa cum laude so clearly I had sufficient time to study.

I was lucky in that I had some help - my girlfriend was working full time and my dad was helping me out with tuition. But realistically, that just let me live in better circumstances - my girlfriend and I built a house, and didn't really have to skimp much on living. If I had lived frugally and done it myself, my debt would have been minimal to nonexistent.

IMO, the degree is worth it. Even if it's just the checkbox to get you past HR and on to some manager's desk.

 

[jimmydean]

i'd still like to talk to someone whose practically applying an art history degree.

My next to oldest has a BA from UCLA and her Masters from Boston College in Art History. She has worked at the Smithsonian as a curator, but is currently working public art projects for practically minimum wage in the town I grew up in.

I have another sister with a PhD in Political Science, she also went to UCLA.

But she is now a professor in Manhattan and writes political pieces like this for CBS on the side.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-57351053-503544/iowas-bad-track-record-for-picking-gop-winners/?tag=mncol;lst;1

<edit> I know a lot of baristas with a poli-sci degree.

 

[conor]

with advances in technology, such as google, college degrees mean nothing any more.

 

[binary visions]

with advances in technology, such as google, college degrees mean nothing any more.

 

[johnbryanpeters]

You get out of education what you put into it. I got bored early in a good high school, wasted a semester at a liberal arts college, then went out in the world of hard knocks. Truck driver, welder, wire stranding machine operator... Army followed, then got a technician job at a defense lab. They paid for school so I tried it, caught up on what I missed in HS, enjoyed it. Went back full time at Northeastern while still working, popped out at age 30 with an EE degree, high honors. Spent the time in school studying, kept the drinking/drugs/whatever to a modest number of off hours.

What dumbs down the schools is putting up with the slackers.

 

[jonKranked]

You get out of education what you put into it. I got bored early in a good high school, wasted a semester at a liberal arts college, then went out in the world of hard knocks. Truck driver, welder, wire stranding machine operator... Army followed, then got a technician job at a defense lab. They paid for school so I tried it, caught up on what I missed in HS, enjoyed it. Went back full time at Northeastern while still working, popped out at age 30 with an EE degree, high honors. Spent the time in school studying, kept the drinking/drugs/whatever to a modest number of off hours.

What dumbs down the schools is putting up with the slackers.

wow there were trucks in the 1700's?

 

[Willy Vanilly]

Just some random thoughts, not all cohesive but wanted to chime in:

I'm not sure that the value of a college degree has decreased as much as the supply of them has increased. Given the shift toward technology based fields, I've always sort of thought of my degrees as a prerequisite to be taken seriously, a sort of right of passage or merit badge. Sure, there are many instances where I still draw on my classroom education, but I think that with many industries, there is such a specialized skillset, that you're almost guaranteed to have to continue to learn on the job (with the degree as initial proof to your potential employer that you can learn). The push toward different industries in the US has brought along with it a push to increase the number of people with degrees.

 

[OGRipper]

Has the economic downturn cheapened the value of a degree?

The downturn has increased competition for many jobs. As a result there are a lot of over-qualified people out there looking for work. So, for some gigs, your ordinary BA or BS may now pale in comparison to the MBA's and PHd's you're competing against. So in that sense a 4-year degree might not be as valuable in certain industries - but it's still a requirement, and indeed might not be enough.

 

[jonKranked]

The downturn has increased competition for many jobs. As a result there are a lot of over-qualified people out there looking for work. So, for some gigs, your ordinary BA or BS may now pale in comparison to the MBA's and PHd's you're competing against. So in that sense a 4-year degree might not be as valuable in certain industries - but it's still a requirement, and indeed might not be enough.

this creates a lot of people who are underemployed - ie overqualified for the position they are applying / filling

 

[KavuRider]

I was in a similar place. Wasn't ready for college - joining the work force seemed to be a better option.

I eventually ended up where I was eligible and qualified for a management position, but the VP was demanding that all managers have 4-year degrees.

I went back to school. You don't have to take out student loans - there are many inexpensive state schools (though you may have to relocate if there isn't one nearby). I paid about $4k/year, stacked up on credits and got my degree in 3 years, working 30+ hours/week, and graduated summa cum laude so clearly I had sufficient time to study.

I was lucky in that I had some help - my girlfriend was working full time and my dad was helping me out with tuition. But realistically, that just let me live in better circumstances - my girlfriend and I built a house, and didn't really have to skimp much on living. If I had lived frugally and done it myself, my debt would have been minimal to nonexistent.

IMO, the degree is worth it. Even if it's just the checkbox to get you past HR and on to some manager's desk.

Just hit you with some +rep for that reply.

Even before I got out of High School, I was pretty much on my own financially. So that means 40+ hours/week to get by. Then a year after I moved out, I bought a house on the advice (and urging) of my parent's. Huge mistake...
I'm fairly certain at this point that I'm going to get out of that mess and start over. And, hopefully, there will be two incomes to go on as well. It doesn't really matter to me what school I go to, a degree is a degree to me, a tool to get a better job.

Thanks for the reply, good stuff!

 

[sanjuro]

Still depends on where you go and what you do.

A Harvard or U of Chicago degree is still the same.

And as much as themooshoo seems like the failure of our education system, he is doing well at his community college, and should have no problem getting a Bachelors at a top Cali public school

 

[JRogers]

There seems to be a real difficulty in the "everyone needs to go to college" line of thinking in that so many people are not cut out for it, for various reasons, and that so many people are ill-prepared to actually do it because they went to crappy high schools and/or didn't try to learn anything in them. Some of my friends teach in pretty crappy high schools and I am amazed at the stories they have of ineptitude, laziness and unpreparedness (of the students mostly, but teachers too). Technical schools, trades and other options probably deserve more attention than they get due to the thinking that 4 year colleges are the best option for everyone. I graduated near the top of a very good HS, went to a very good college and graduated with a double major, got an MA from an Ivy League school and am now getting a PhD. But a good electrician will probably make more than me when I'm done and have an easier time getting a job.

 

[stoney]

For the most part, the 'basic' state colleges are an extension of highschool. The 'basic' liberal arts colleges are extensions of private school. As JBP said, what you get out is what you put in. You can get a great education at a below average state university; you can get a useless education at a top tier school.

However at this point, because college is considered to be an extectation, it loses the value and a pedestal. Now, you need an masters to stand out above the crowd.

 

[CrabJoe StretchPants]

However at this point, because college is considered to be an extectation, it loses the value and a pedestal. Now, you need an masters to stand out above the crowd.

What's most important is that you go to a better college than your wife's friend went to.

 

[stevew]

wow there were trucks in the 1700's?

wagonmaster....

 

[DirtyMike]

Fact is that our education system has truly gone to ****.

I dont care what grade somoene is in these days, You hear parents blaming the teachers for their mkids **** grades all the time, you hear of more and more being taken away from thr teachers all the time, teachers cannot control their own class rooms anymore due to fear of the students parents friggin sueing them or the school.

Problem with this is that the students don't do a damn thing in school anymore. They are not pushed, nor made to complete anything by their parents and teachers cannot do anything about it. Sadly the parents are quick to yell at the teachers that it is the teachers fault. It truly is the parents fault, parents that expect the teahers to raise their kids for them.

The kids hit the colleges and trade schools with the same attitude, do enough to skim by and mvoe on. I am embarrased by the output of my tradeschool these days. Seriously the kids they are calling graduates are a joke, the kids dont put crap into it anymore and come out just as stupid as they went in.

Sadly this is the way it is these days, too many kids are being taught that everything should be given to them, and nothing needs hard work to get. I am about to start school again myself, and Let me tell you I am going to put everything I have into it.

 

[Polandspring88]

wagonmaster....

Covered wagons?

 

[zdubyadubya]

re: PhD's: I work with a TON of them. I'm absolutely astounded by how many of them have a decade+ in academia, and less than 2 yrs in a real business environment. They have no clue how to meet a deadline.

I graduated in '03 and my high school was a joke so I started taking classes at the community college at 16. BS was fairly easy as well. Grad school was hard. Both my MS and my PhD were immensely difficult with a TON of real-world application before you even were able to propose your defense.

Your mentality is common too. I can't tell you how many times I've heard "Oh yeah, I've seen your CV before but I threw it away because you had a PhD" from a hiring manager after a connection brings me in for an interview. However, coming out of Grad school I had 3 job offers and a sponsor for a security clearance. Was the PhD necessary for what I do now? Heck no, I learned most of what I use in the day to day the first few weeks of work, but what it DID get me was a significantly higher starting salary to negotiate from.

 

[CrabJoe StretchPants]

higher starting salary to negotiate from.

How does that compare to the cost of education to get the MS/PhD? Of course if your employer paid for it that's a different story.