[Metamorphic]

I pinballed through the woods pretty hard a few weeks ago and need to replace my Bell Transfer 9. I got into reading about the F1952 ASTM standard and learned there are several versions. The Transfer-9 is listed as tested to F1952-00 (the 2000 version) but upon inspecting my helmet, it's printed on the tag that is meets F1952-10, so Bell obviously has an error on their webpage. TLD D2 goes to F1952-00. Leatt's go to F1952-10 (2010 version). There's a 2015 version that just came out and the only helmets I've found spec'd to this standard is the TLD D3 (edit) and the Bell Full-9.

Would a -10 cert have made a difference in my wreck? No I am pretty sure not, but I feel a bit remiss to not check into these types of things before buying another one. Anyone have any recommendations for "meaningful" safety attributes of one helmet over another? I like Leatt's thin foam with variable density, makes sense in my (recently banged around) brain that it would reduce rotational forces, they dub it the 360 Turbine Tech. MIPS seems similar outcome, via a different means. In my experience my biggest problem is blunt force impacts, so I am really interested in the makeup of the foam.

I am finding this helpful in my research:
http://www.helmets.org/helmet16.htm#leatt

https://www.astm.org/Standards/F1952.htm

 

[Toshi]

Good info. This ASTM standard is for DH lids only, it seems.

 

[Jm_]

No, I didn't check out that standard before buying my new MIPS helmets. I have read a few articles on concussions and the science behind it by companies that are trying to make impact and extreme sports safer, but it seems that there are too many variables to really make conclusions that are absolutes. A strap on one helmet may not work well on one person's head, but it may work well on another. What "feels" good and tight may not necessarily be the best for impacts. The direction that is applied in a test may not correspond with the extreme variables on the trail, like a sharp point of a rock vs. a blunt tree branch, vs. the little-easier-to-test ground impact on a road. The best I think we can do is that the data seems to point to attenuation of shock through some sideways movement is helpful, but that won't work for all impacts. In the end it's foam that is designed to break before your head does, if you manage to hit the foam right.

I did try on a ton of helmets and chose the one that seemed to fit the best, happened to be the Giro Montero for me for XC/enduro/whatever the hell I did last week.

 

[Metamorphic]

@Jm_ I think you're describing exactly the reason helmet safety standards and testing procedures are continuously updated. MIPS came directly out of engineers thinking about rotational impact. Some of the tests are dropping a helmet on a sliding sledge for example. Pretty cool stuff going on. Extreme ends of the spectrum nope you're right, can't plan for those, but it's that big middle part I'm interested in capturing as much as possible. I need to find a way (aside from buying) to get the details of these standards and tests. The TLD D3 is also spec'd to ASTM F2032 (BMX) but I have no idea how that differs from F1952-15 DH standard.

EDIT: What is your new MIPS lid and how do you like it?

 

[Udi]

There's a 2015 version that just came out and the only helmet I've found spec'd to this standard is the TLD D3.

Does this apply to D3s older than 2015 as well?
Curious as I have a couple in rotation from different years. Don't think design changed.

 

[mykel]

Don't forget about the 6d with the 27 ODS bumpers to help with rotational and impact forces.

Finally saw one today, got talking on the lift, nice helmet, bit big looking, but seems very well put together...
Buddy says it does not breathe quite as well as a D3, but the extra the weight and size are not very noticeable after the first couple of rides.

Standards: ASTM F-1952-10, and CPSC 16 CFR1203 safety standards (US), and EN1078 (Europe).

 

[kickstand]

No I wear a Moto lid

 

[Muddy]

No I wear a Moto lid

My helmet is also from moto. Sizing is more generous at 62-63cm vs. 61-62cm in largest DH.

There being a successive standard being held in place should be encouraging regardless of Brand. A new testing standard only serves as an illustration of physiology norms, working template for future helmet study. An updated compliance does not restrict use of previous compliance.

 

[kickstand]

My helmet is also from moto. Sizing is more generous at 62-63cm vs. 61-62cm in largest DH.

I chose moto not for sizing, but for added protection. At the end of the day the argument against moto helmets used to be that bike impacts were lesser and moto helmets couldn't protect in slower speed crashes quite the same etc.

If you really think about it, moto speeds are not THAT much faster than DH speeds, and the chance for similar impact is certainly there. Yeah, I get it, on an out door moto cross track the speeds are much higher, as are the heights of the jumps, but if you consider what MOST do on a moto bike, trail riding, enduro races, etc. the difference seems marginal to me. I've rung my bell plenty of times over the last 4 years in the same helmet, and while I know it's due for replacement, I am 100% confident in it.

The same can not be said for the way my wife feels about her bike specific helmets and her 2nd concussion this year. She will be replacing yet another helmet, and will likely consider going moto this time as well.

 

[jonKranked]

moto speeds are not THAT much faster than DH speeds

average downhiller generally tops out at around 30mph, maybe 35, and generally only for brief periods at that speed. top speeds of dirt bikes are 50+ mph (depending on stroke, transmission, gearing).

 

[kickstand]

I've been clocked over 30MPH numerous times at races and I'm not even all that fast.

Top speeds of dirt bikes are well over 50 mph, but average trail speed of a dirtbike is 15-25 mph, average supercross track speed is not much more than that with top speeds aroudn 35-40. Most motocross riders are going faster than that, but ride most of the track in 3rd gear.

Regardless of the speeds I prefer a moto helmet, the impacts felt in DH are enough that I don't trust bike helmets.

Can you get to 43,000 posts today you think?

 

[mykel]

My top speed is 68 kph / 42+ mph, and I'm old fat and slow.
This was on an trail that would spit you out near the bottom of a ski run; a high speed corner then straight shot to the bottom. The trail has now been modified, and now is the slowest of the fast - mentioned below.

The speeds can get up there, there is no doubt.
However, what is the normal "average" speed for a trail?
Yesterday, one of my crew took a few readings on the fastest trails in the park
42-48 kph was his top speed, and he is pretty quick

So, that would compare to a motorcycle riding trails in the bush.

Interesting - I'm still on the fence as to which way I will go when the D3 needs to be retired.

Part of me is thinking the 6d or Leatt because of my concussion / TBI status, but the other part is thinking Moto...
However I am concerned about low speed impact absorption balanced by high speed ability.....

Not an easy decision with the information readily available

 

[jonKranked]

i've hit 50mph on a mountain bike before. nowhere did I say it was impossible, just infrequent and for short periods of time.

also, the whole "moto helmets are moar bettar!" argument is a leftover argument from years ago when full face mtb helmets were, by and far, pretty crappy and only marginally better than XC lids. Nowadays, with more and more companies making MIPS (or similar) helmets, there's really no need to use moto lids for DH.

 

[kickstand]

i've hit 50mph on a mountain bike before. nowhere did I say it was impossible, just infrequent and for short periods of time.

also, the whole "moto helmets are moar bettar!" argument is a leftover argument from years ago when full face mtb helmets were, by and far, pretty crappy and only marginally better than XC lids. Nowadays, with more and more companies making MIPS (or similar) helmets, there's really no need to use moto lids for DH.

No where did I say moto helmets are moar better, I said, moto helmets are my preference and I feel they offer better protection.

 

[canadmos]

My top speed is 68 kph / 42+ mph, and I'm old fat and slow.
This was on an trail that would spit you out near the bottom of a ski run; a high speed corner then straight shot to the bottom. The trail has now been modified, and now is the slowest of the fast - mentioned below.

O-chute?

Just saying here for helmets, but its funny about the "danger" of DH. I hit 40-55km/h during most trail rides, with no pads and open face helmet. To me DH is a lot safer. Off topic...oops.

 

[Electric_City]

I read an article about 2-3 years ago about helmet safety standards and I unfortunately can't find it. It was an interview with someone in the industry. His complaint was that helmets can't get safer cause the guidelines are too outdated. The manufacturers are trying to update them, but it won't happen since the Federal government is the one that passed the bill decades ago... Therefore they need to update it, not the helmet companies. Apparently, the government is too busy to rewrite a bicycle helmet bill.

Today's (rather yesteryear's) standards include dropping a 1" ball bearing on it from 10' and a sharp object from 2' or something pathetic like that.

I'd love to post the article if I can find it.

 

[Sandwich]

I've never checked the status of my 1952 standard, but I always go for the 1952 rated helmet. They are designed specifically for DH, and that gives me a bit more confidence than a moto helmet.

Running a transfer 9 right now, and it's OK, aside from it being hot as shit. I miss the buckle and vents on my giro remedy.

 

[Electric_City]

This might be the article I was thinking of.

Read the last paragraph on "p#66" and into 67 if you can't read the rest.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.bicycling.com/sites/default/files/uploads/BI-June-13-Helmet.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwjHhYzpwtXOAhXF6CYKHQM3DacQFgguMAY&usg=AFQjCNHIKy5ceqIbDBsDiKddXhIKYsK6dA

 

[Metamorphic]

This might be the article I was thinking of.

Read the last paragraph on "p#66" and into 67 if you can't read the rest.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.bicycling.com/sites/default/files/uploads/BI-June-13-Helmet.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwjHhYzpwtXOAhXF6CYKHQM3DacQFgguMAY&usg=AFQjCNHIKy5ceqIbDBsDiKddXhIKYsK6dA

Interesting stuff. This is really only applicable to the government CPSC programs though. Has nothing to do with ASTM standards which are international and in coordination with many professional science/engineer organizations and are continuously updated regardless of government bureaucracy/red-tape.

Another reason I like to focus on the F1952 standard.

 

[jonKranked]

Interesting stuff. This is really only applicable to the government CPSC programs though. Has nothing to do with ASTM standards which are international and in coordination with many professional science/engineer organizations and are continuously updated regardless of government bureaucracy/red-tape.

Another reason I like to focus on the F1952 standard.

someone correct me if i'm wrong, but for helmets sold in the US CPSC compliance is mandatory, ASTM certifications are not.

 

[mykel]

@canadmos

Yup, the old exit from Showcase / O-Chute.

FYI - the numbers from yesterday

Showcase = 42kph
H2O = 46kph
Minions Rush = 48kph
Haole = 48kph

These were not push it as fast as you can race runs, but the normal fast cruise pace used to last the entire day of running laps.

 

[canadmos]

@canadmos

Yup, the old exit from Showcase / O-Chute.

FYI - the numbers from yesterday

Showcase = 42kph
H2O = 46kph
Minions Rush = 48kph
Haole = 48kph

These were not push it as fast as you can race runs, but the normal fast cruise pace used to last the entire day of running laps.

The average speed of Minions and Haole is crazy.

 

[Metamorphic]

someone correct me if i'm wrong, but for helmets sold in the US CPSC compliance is mandatory, ASTM certifications are not.

Yeah that's correct. Must comply to the 1999 CPSC 16 C.F.R. part 1203 standard.

Like has been brought up, it's worthless. So focus on the voluntary ASTM F1952 dh standard.

 

[syadasti]

Got a grade 2 concussion on Thursday night with XC POC helmet in a freak crash (was a bit slippery, but I don't remember what happened, crashing, or riding back to the lot). First concussion in over 25 years of mountain biking. Had nausea driving home and then around 3am I puked up my dinner into the toilet.

 

[Muddy]

Yeah that's correct. Must comply to the 1999 CPSC 16 C.F.R. part 1203 standard.

Like has been brought up, it's worthless. So focus on the voluntary ASTM F1952 dh standard.

So - it's voluntary to implement? Or voluntary to also put a label indicating compliance on a production helmet??

 

[Muddy]

I chose moto not for sizing, but for added protection. At the end of the day the argument against moto helmets used to be that bike impacts were lesser and moto helmets couldn't protect in slower speed crashes quite the same etc.

If you really think about it, moto speeds are not THAT much faster than DH speeds, and the chance for similar impact is certainly there. Yeah, I get it, on an out door moto cross track the speeds are much higher, as are the heights of the jumps, but if you consider what MOST do on a moto bike, trail riding, enduro races, etc. the difference seems marginal to me. I've rung my bell plenty of times over the last 4 years in the same helmet, and while I know it's due for replacement, I am 100% confident in it.

The same can not be said for the way my wife feels about her bike specific helmets and her 2nd concussion this year. She will be replacing yet another helmet, and will likely consider going moto this time as well.

Fit is hyper-critical with any Helmet and, it's only the weight of a moto helmet which has MTB throngs and throngettes choosing otherwise.

Bottom line: if you have a 10 dollar head, wear a 10 dollar helmet.

 

[kickstand]

Fit is hyper-critical with any Helmet and, it's only the weight of a moto helmet which has MTB throngs and throngettes choosing otherwise.

Bottom line: if you have a 10 dollar head, wear a 10 dollar helmet.

I've got a carbon fly f2 that I find extremely comfy. I've inadvertently took off down the trail unbuckled and it doesn't move a smidge. I do agree though that fit is important.

Not sure what mine weighs but it's not too heavy, but also not super light.

 

[Muddy]

I've got a carbon fly f2 that I find extremely comfy. I've inadvertently took off down the trail unbuckled and it doesn't move a smidge. I do agree though that fit is important.

Not sure what mine weighs but it's not too heavy, but also not super light.

A properly fitted Moto-9 carbon meets and/or exceeds this crucial test also.

 

[WestCoastHucker]

i usually just check to see if they have a red one...

 

[Jm_]

We hit 55mph racing our fatbikes down the mountain in the winter. Because F-yeah.

 

[WestCoastHucker]

i don't have an odometer on my dh bike, but i often get over 40mph on my trail bike. i'd imagine i can easily go 10+ mph faster downhilling...

 

[Jm_]

in more normal situations, around 40 is the fastest I ever get, most DHing is slower than that for me, if your going that fast, it's too smooth.

 

[WestCoastHucker]

i guess so. it probably just feels faster because the dh trails are more intense...

 

[Bikael Molton]

No, I don't.
I generally buy top of the line helmets though, as I don't crash often enough to worry about replacing them.

 

[ChrisKring]

For what it's worth, moto helmets are tested at fairly low speeds. From memory, I think it's around 18mph. It's defined as an energy and head mass but to actually test it is converted into velocity.

Anyway, I just got the new TLD SE4 and it is great. The fit is good for me and the airflow is far better than any moto lid that I have had. It has the mips system which I hope I don't need to try out.