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Does anybody have experience with DT Pro Lock nipples?

DirtyMike

Turbo Fluffer
Aug 8, 2005
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I have Built wheels with and without Prolocks.... BAsically there a SPoke nipple with SPoke prep already in it
If you dont like that idea you can always use the actual Spoke prep

But what i have come to find Works Extremly wll and Very Little Mess is the Spoke freeze from Loctite... Its about 16 bucks a bottle But lasts a very long time
Generally her is My Path i take when building <Since this has come up in teh thread and i feel like a ramble> Firt. I Measure Everything By Hand i dont even look at what the info with the wheel says i have found too many that are wrong even right off the Manufacurers sites.

second. Lace the wheel up and whil i am lacing i like to Prebend teh spokes into place a little... Nothing super aggresive yet But seems to help setle the spoke head into the hub.

Third. Use that cool goofy lookin screwdriver to get all my spokes at an even starting place.

Fourth. Apply One drop of Triflow or other penetrating type Lube to the Nipple were it meets the Eyelet

Fifth. start Putting tension on the wheel at about a half turn each spoke and repeat a few times

Sixth. Start Grabbign and stretching spokes. Litteraly Grab your parralell spokes and sqeezer the living hell out of them

Seventh. i take a Cone wrench in between the spokes near teh hub and give them all a little twist so that i am Pulling the spokes even further into teh hub. This Gets teh Spoke heads set in Very well. Other i know have taken a Small nail setand given them a little tap

Eighth. Repeat step six and tension slighty as neded till i am comfortable with wheel tension

Nineth. Take wheel out of Truing stand put it on ground, And Push the wheel hard into the ground like the with the side of teh hub down and the wheel not touching.....this get rid of your spoke twisting you get while building your wheel and if you feel teh spokes move you know to stop and put more tension on them.

Tenth. put My final True on teh wheel By Loosening Spokes.... at this point should be a Very slight tru to be done if wheel was done right.

Last. One Drop of Spoke freeze on the back side of the spoke Nipple from the rim side... Right on top of the spoke... Spoke freeze will pevetrate into the threads Holding spokes tight But allowing for truing later on

If you wish. you can put a tension meter on your spokes just to make sure tehre isnt a Problem... But if you build wheels alot you would have already caught any problems by now.


If anyone has any doubts on this Come see my wheels... Im a 260lb rider and i ride fairly hard i use DT swiss comp spokes SUn ringle SL1 single tracks on XT hubs.... Hit a few rocks/trees here and there and after nearly a year there still straight as can be and i have nver had a spoke come loose. i check them regularly to make sure. Any who ramble done.


PS. be as exact as Possible when you measure your wheel/hubs.
i usually go to the hundreth of an Inch and i use teh dtswiss
calculator on the website. i always use user defined i dont use the preloaded values. Good luck with your wheels.... Let us know what you end up using
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DirtyMike

Turbo Fluffer
Aug 8, 2005
14,437
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Urban FR'er 666 said:
GEE...? Has anybody thought of the fact that the company DTswiss who manufactures all parts used in the making of a wheel, suggests using spoke-prep, and spoke-prep even says right on it not to add oil???????????????????

And I'm sure DTswiss has built a h3ll of alott more wheels than stiks and all you
D!CKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just saw this one and i wanted to say something about Not oiling.....READ THE DT SWISS RECOMENDED METHOD...they tell you to OIL the SPOKE NIPPLE AT THE EYELET


Sorry Im DT swiss certed if you dont oil where the spoke meets the eyelet youll never get the proper tension on the wheel. youll stat rolling theshape of the nipple and In fact reducing the life adn strength of the wheel.

Get your translation Right... Noyou dont add the oil to the Spoke prep or the thread... But yes teh spoke prep Most certanly lubricates teh spoke when your building it.... if you read it further it will tell you to give at least 24 hours Curing time before putting the wheel into use.

If your really wanting to learnyou can take the class. Just some advice.. Dont try to tell them tehre wrong and have an open mind
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OGRipper

back alley ripper
Feb 3, 2004
10,647
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NORCAL is the hizzle
Wow. I've built hundreds of wheels and I pretty much agree with Stik, lube outside the nipple, prep the spoke threads or use pro-lock. That way you can easily bring up the tension, and the wheel will hold tension better over time. Saves you the need for mad tension, which IME leads to breaking spokes earlier.
 
J

JRB

Guest
I use linseed oil on the threads and tri flow on the eyelet. I have used spoke prep, but I am cheap. The nipples here sound brilliant. I am not certified, nor smart, but it always works for me to oil the eyelets. Even when truing it's not a bad idea.
 

Sir_Crackien

Turbo Monkey
Feb 7, 2004
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alex. va. usa.
btw for everyone i run the "mad tension" because i like a very stiff wheel and i have not had any permature spoke failure due to the very high tension so fair. one of the wheel that i biult that way i have been riding for over 2 years.
 

atrokz

Turbo Monkey
Mar 14, 2002
1,552
77
teedotohdot
Pau11y said:
Theory and actual application are two VERY different things and experience will win 99% of the time.
Actualy, they are the exact same thing if you are taught the right theory :p

But yea, didn't mean to take away from the rest of your good post.
 

OGRipper

back alley ripper
Feb 3, 2004
10,647
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NORCAL is the hizzle
Sir_Crackien said:
btw for everyone i run the "mad tension" because i like a very stiff wheel and i have not had any permature spoke failure due to the very high tension so fair. one of the wheel that i biult that way i have been riding for over 2 years.
Glad it works for you, my experience is different, I get longer life using spoke prep and slightly less tension. I have one wheel that is over 5 years old, so there. :eviltongu :D No seriously, I hear you on the stiff wheel thing and high tension works for that.
 

ChrisKring

Turbo Monkey
Jan 30, 2002
2,399
6
Grand Haven, MI
High tension reduces cyclic failure. You just need to be carefull not to pull the eyelet out of the rim. I have had up to 150 KgF on a Sun Singletrack without any problems. However, I would suggest 120-130.

Oil is a must. If you don't belive me, build a wheel without it and measure the spoke tension. Even with oil on the threads, the spoke thread angle is so low that you are past the self locking angle. It's not going to loosen up.

Stress reliving the wheel is a must.

I used to set the spoke heads with a nail set. I haven't seen a failure when this isn't done so I stopped doing it. I would do it if it looks like the spoke isn't seating into the hub good.
 

OGRipper

back alley ripper
Feb 3, 2004
10,647
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NORCAL is the hizzle
ChrisKring said:
Oil is a must.
I agree that you need some kind of lube on the threads. Spoke prep acts as a thread lube during the build. The only difference in what we are saying is that I like my thread lube to dry out and give me a little thread lock action too. I can get similar building characteristics (easy to bring up the tension, etc.) AND some thread lock assurance by using spoke prep. I don't build wheels professionally any more but except for a little extra time, I don't see how spoke prep is a bad thing...?
 

zedro

Turbo Monkey
Sep 14, 2001
4,144
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Urban FR'er 666 said:
I have never seen a single nipple sciezed in the eyelets!
i've never seen a 'sciezed' one either, but seized ones are typical with wheels that take gobs of tension, like Mavics.

PS: only a child with a small dose of 'dangerous' knowledge would try to butt heads against a seasoned professional.
 

zedro

Turbo Monkey
Sep 14, 2001
4,144
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at the end of the longest line
ChrisKring said:
Oil is a must. If you don't belive me, build a wheel without it and measure the spoke tension. Even with oil on the threads, the spoke thread angle is so low that you are past the self locking angle. It's not going to loosen up.
anything is probably better. Threads come loose from vibration, not lack of friction. Dry threads have lots of room to bounce around on the small scale, using some kind of subtance thick enough to fill that gap reduces vibration.

Urban Fr-guy (original name btw) should use red-loctite for his hardcoreness....
 

DirtyMike

Turbo Fluffer
Aug 8, 2005
14,437
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OGRipper said:
Wow. I've built hundreds of wheels and I pretty much agree with Stik, lube outside the nipple, prep the spoke threads or use pro-lock. That way you can easily bring up the tension, and the wheel will hold tension better over time. Saves you the need for mad tension, which IME leads to breaking spokes earlier.
i Agree with not having "Madd tension".... i just Make sure teh spokes are as prestreched as there gonna get
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DirtyMike

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Aug 8, 2005
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loco said:
I use linseed oil on the threads and tri flow on the eyelet. I have used spoke prep, but I am cheap. The nipples here sound brilliant. I am not certified, nor smart, but it always works for me to oil the eyelets. Even when truing it's not a bad idea.

I Have used that combo before Also.... it works well without trouble.... Just can be messy is all
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ChrisKring

Turbo Monkey
Jan 30, 2002
2,399
6
Grand Haven, MI
zedro said:
anything is probably better. Threads come loose from vibration, not lack of friction. Dry threads have lots of room to bounce around on the small scale, using some kind of subtance thick enough to fill that gap reduces vibration.

Urban Fr-guy (original name btw) should use red-loctite for his hardcoreness....
LOL: Red Loctite would be great. You would need to cut the spokes to true the wheel.

I am going to mark (index) some spokes on the next wheel I build for myself and check the oreintation after a few days of DH to test your vibration theory. That's a new one to me but it may be true so I'll check it out. I just can't see with the high preload (tension) in the spoke that the vibration force will exceed the preload in order to allow for the nipple to turn. I'll report back out in the spring.
 

Transcend

My Nuts Are Flat
Apr 18, 2002
18,040
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Towing the party line.
Actually, its a combination of the two. The bottom spokes get compreseed under your weight as you ride, detension while they are compressed and the vibration backs them out a bit.
 

zedro

Turbo Monkey
Sep 14, 2001
4,144
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at the end of the longest line
ChrisKring said:
That's a new one to me but it may be true so I'll check it out. I just can't see with the high preload (tension) in the spoke that the vibration force will exceed the preload in order to allow for the nipple to turn. I'll report back out in the spring.
vibrations in engineering can have really devastating effects and can do some interesting things when they start to amplify (bridges tear themselves apart, solid ground turns to quicksand....). You can actually set up an experiment where a bolt will unthread itself in whatever direction in a matter of seconds when vibrated at a certain frequency. In our case it requires this reaction to frequency because of the tension and friction at the threads. We arent talking about a low frequency/high amplitude force, but rather high frequency/low forces (perhaps when the spokes hits resonance, ie. the ping)
 

ChrisKring

Turbo Monkey
Jan 30, 2002
2,399
6
Grand Haven, MI
zedro said:
vibrations in engineering can have really devastating effects and can do some interesting things when they start to amplify (bridges tear themselves apart, solid ground turns to quicksand....). You can actually set up an experiment where a bolt will unthread itself in whatever direction in a matter of seconds when vibrated at a certain frequency. In our case it requires this reaction to frequency because of the tension and friction at the threads. We arent talking about a low frequency/high amplitude force, but rather high frequency/low forces (perhaps when the spokes hits resonance, ie. the ping)
I realize this. Not to sound like a know-it-all but I have my BSME. Bridges tear themselves apart because the natural frequency is too close to the actual frequency of natural forces on the bridge therefore amplifing the forces upon the bridge.


That said, if the amplitude of the vibration is not greater than the preload, then the spoke never looses tension. Likewise, there isn't a displacement until the vibration force exceeds the spoke tension.

Enough engineering on my holiday break. I going to ride my MX bike. Have a nice day. :cool:
 

ChrisKring

Turbo Monkey
Jan 30, 2002
2,399
6
Grand Haven, MI
Transcend said:
Actually, its a combination of the two. The bottom spokes get compreseed under your weight as you ride, detension while they are compressed and the vibration backs them out a bit.
The spokes on the bottom of the wheel are always under tension on a properly tensioned wheel.
 

urbaindk

The Real Dr. Science
Jul 12, 2004
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There is actually some useful info in this thread if you dig deep enough.

I'm thinking about building some wheels in the near future. It will be my first time. What happens if you use blue loctite instead of spoke prep?
 

Transcend

My Nuts Are Flat
Apr 18, 2002
18,040
3
Towing the party line.
ChrisKring said:
The spokes on the bottom of the wheel are always under tension on a properly tensioned wheel.
Exactly, which is why you want to use oil on the nipple, to get it tensioned properly to begin with. :) If you don't, then tension will never be correct, and it WILL come loose.
 

OGRipper

back alley ripper
Feb 3, 2004
10,647
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ChrisKring said:
The spokes on the bottom of the wheel are always under tension on a properly tensioned wheel.
Maybe always under some tension, but my understanding is that with every revolution there are moments when the tension is somewhat released in parts of the wheel. It may still be "under tension" but still, the tension doesn't remain consistent, and it is the constant tension and release that dictates (to me anyway) using some form of thread locker.
 

ChrisKring

Turbo Monkey
Jan 30, 2002
2,399
6
Grand Haven, MI
Transcend said:
Exactly, which is why you want to use oil on the nipple, to get it tensioned properly to begin with. :) If you don't, then tension will never be correct, and it WILL come loose.
Agreed, that's the problem with discussions on forums. It's difficult to always interpuit what someone means.
 

ChrisKring

Turbo Monkey
Jan 30, 2002
2,399
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Grand Haven, MI
jdschall said:
There is actually some useful info in this thread if you dig deep enough.

I'm thinking about building some wheels in the near future. It will be my first time. What happens if you use blue loctite instead of spoke prep?
Good for you. Wheel building isn't as difficult as people make it out to be. Get a good book and follow the directions.

Blue loctite is fine as long as your quick. But since it's your first wheel, you shouldn't be quick. Loctite drys fairly fast. You could put a drop of loctite on before your last half turn or so.
 

Pau11y

Turbo Monkey
jdschall said:
There is actually some useful info in this thread if you dig deep enough.

I'm thinking about building some wheels in the near future. It will be my first time. What happens if you use blue loctite instead of spoke prep?
For your first wheel, use grease (heavy automotive axle type). The reason is you'll be going back to it again and again. Setting the threads might give you a bigger chance to round out your nipples because you haven't developed the "touch" yet. Just my $0.02.
 

urbaindk

The Real Dr. Science
Jul 12, 2004
4,819
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Sleepy Hollar
Pau11y said:
For your first wheel, use grease (heavy automotive axle type). .

That's a good idea and sounds really easy. Do you think I should invest in a tensometer like the consumer version Park sells or go by feel?
 

SuspectDevice

Turbo Monkey
Aug 23, 2002
4,157
359
Roanoke, VA
I actually do lubricate spoke threads when I build wheels, liberally with prolink. After I've finished lacing i lube the nipple-eyelet junction. I make sure to thoroughly stress relieve throughout the entire building process, and post build. I don't use a tensiometer (but I do own one) and build them to feel with as high a spoke tension as possible.

My wheels don't come untensioned, even wheels that I built 5 seasons ago that have seen thousands of really rough training miles on the road bike. Spoke tension is key.

I do have bottle of pro-lock, and I use it pretty often when I am working with pre-built wheels. I find wheels that were not properly lubricated and tensioned from the factory to be prone to loosening up, even if I go through and completely re-tension them...
 

Rockland

Turbo Monkey
Apr 24, 2003
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Left hand path
jdschall said:
That's a good idea and sounds really easy. Do you think I should invest in a tensometer like the consumer version Park sells or go by feel?
The Park tension meter is a great tool. Afordable too (compared to the DT & Hozan offerings).
 

dexterq20

Turbo Monkey
Mar 6, 2003
3,442
1
NorCal
Am I the only one here who actually greases the rim eyelets (with real grease, not just lube) before inserting the nipples? This, along with Tri-Flow on the spoke threads, has always worked well for me.
 

Pau11y

Turbo Monkey
jdschall said:
That's a good idea and sounds really easy. Do you think I should invest in a tensometer like the consumer version Park sells or go by feel?
I definitely should. But for you, unless you think you're going to be building your own from here on out, I'd go w/ feel/sound for now and develop your "touch" before you drop the coin. The one I want (forgot who makes it...possibly DT) is like $170 somfin...
 

SuspectDevice

Turbo Monkey
Aug 23, 2002
4,157
359
Roanoke, VA
dhkid said:
what do you do to stress relive the wheel?
Pretty much the same thing anyone else does i'd think. I am constantly grabbing pairs of spokes and getting them to pop and unwind, and I also compulsively laterally load the wheel to relieve wind up that way. I don't stop re-tensioning the wheel until the spokes stop popping. The tension I get is always nice and even, and as high as possible while remaining in dish.
The advantage to a tensiometer is making sure that spoke tension is even, not that it is in the right range, as it's pretty much impossible to have too much tension on a conventional spoked wheel due to dish.
 

Pau11y

Turbo Monkey
SuspectDevice said:
Pretty much the same thing anyone else does i'd think. I am constantly grabbing pairs of spokes and getting them to pop and unwind, and I also compulsively laterally load the wheel to relieve wind up that way. I don't stop re-tensioning the wheel until the spokes stop popping. The tension I get is always nice and even, and as high as possible while remaining in dish.
The advantage to a tensiometer is making sure that spoke tension is even, not that it is in the right range, as it's pretty much impossible to have too much tension on a conventional spoked wheel due to dish.
I do like you do w/ the stress relief, lay the wheel on it's side and push (gently at first) and make them pop and creak. When proper tension near, they do it less and less. I do this anywhere from 1/2 dozen times to couple of dozen times (roundness and quality of the rim makes a huge diff here, Mavics being the least fussy, next is DT 4.1s). It doesn't ever go away entirely tho, but it becomes very few. As for over tensioning, I've done it when I was first starting out, way long ago. Popped a db spoke, but they're kinda weaker at the butting tho.
 

D_D

Monkey
Dec 16, 2001
392
0
UK
I prefere to remove the windup when tensioning. Just over tighten the nipple then back it off to untwist the spoke. It's quicker once you get a feal for it and there is no danger of missing a wound up spoke that will later unwind in use.

For stress relieving either the Sheldo Brown method or squeezing parallel pairs of spokes together work fine.
 

DirtyMike

Turbo Fluffer
Aug 8, 2005
14,437
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jdschall said:
There is actually some useful info in this thread if you dig deep enough.

I'm thinking about building some wheels in the near future. It will be my first time. What happens if you use blue loctite instead of spoke prep?


Ok there are Over 400 different types of Loctite made..... Probably 396 you havent heard of.. they all have different applications for use.... Hense the Loctite Brande Spoke Freeze compound..... It is RED.... But it is not teh Red loctite you get for ten dollars at an Autoparts store the one at the autoparts Youll need Heat to release it the Spoke freze Penetrates into threads and is easily movable.... And when you Move<True your wheel>it will also Reseat your threads.....If your going to sue Loctite Use teh proper one... Blue Loctite will work But is NOT recomended for this application.... And teh Problem with Blue Loctite is that once you release <True the wheel> it will need to eb reapplied to work..... The Red/blue compounds Most think of are Used in a I Never want this to Move unless i am Taking it apart Application were the Spoke freeze type is a I want it to stay But i May need to readjust without taking it apart Application <Spokes> you can get Spoek prep at a LBS, Moto shop, Anyone that deals with stuff like this.....

My earleir Post talked about how to use this one In particular But ill say it again really Fast..... this is Applied After your totally done....Fromt eh back side of the spoke Nipple One Drop per spoke is all you need..... a bottle will run you about 16 dollars WHolesale so if you go to a LBS your prolly looking 25-30.....Hope that helps you decide on a compound..... ALways use something made for the job at hand



<<Automotive/Deisel technition/Bike mechanic.... two degrees>
<PM if you need more detailed Help>
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DirtyMike

Turbo Fluffer
Aug 8, 2005
14,437
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stiksandstones said:
I have done a few hundred wheels with it, a few hundy without. For me it is not worth the time in preparation...and I always oil my nipple/eyelet anyway and thats all that stuff does is allow threads to not get stuck and allow them to move freely. I also pre stretch my spokes during the build so I do not have to worry about them coming loose.

I am rambling, but point it, use it and you will be fine, don't and you will be fine.

Hey Had a question Wheel builder to builder..... Do you lace with the inner spoke as your Pulling spoke our your Outer?... i know Lots of people have argued as to which is better Was Just curious a to which way you go and what your reasoning is. I normally Go with the inner as My Pulling spoke. Just how i was Shown. Anywho thought i would Hit up Another Experienced Builder for his Input

<Best way to learn more IMO is to Ask those who have done>
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stiksandstones

Turbo Monkey
May 21, 2002
5,078
25
Orange, Ca
DirtyMike said:
Hey Had a question Wheel builder to builder..... Do you lace with the inner spoke as your Pulling spoke our your Outer?... i know Lots of people have argued as to which is better Was Just curious a to which way you go and what your reasoning is. I normally Go with the inner as My Pulling spoke. Just how i was Shown. Anywho thought i would Hit up Another Experienced Builder for his Input

<Best way to learn more IMO is to Ask those who have done>
Hey Mike, I have done it both ways over the years, always betting myself which is 'better'...I have not noticed a difference really, but more often than not I use the inner spokes as my pulling spokes as well. I firmly believe a properly built wheel that is tensioned properly could be laced all jacked and will still be fine.

Everyone is born with a special talent in life-sadly mine was building friggin wheels and there was no fortune to be made in it so I moved on and just do it for fun...point being, wheel building is not a science-I have seen guys put 10x the effort and thinking than I do into it and my wheels will always outlast them.

Let the thread roll on...
 

Jeremy R

<b>x</b>
Nov 15, 2001
9,698
1,053
behind you with a snap pop
Ha, I admit, I did not click on this thread earlier because the only nipples I find interesting are made of flesh, but I really missed out.
2 thumbs up.
And it goes to show ya, never give up on your dreams.
It may be the last week of December, but that does mean that you can't sneak in and Win Ridemonkey's Biggest Douchebag of 2005 Award. Good Job.