[fluff]

As it's chestnut season here's another old one, with a seasonal flavour from the BBChttp://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4457402.stm

Interesting stat at the end:

Perhaps the most striking difference between Britain and the US is the number of homicides committed with firearms.

In the States, it is around 70%. Here (in the UK), some 6%.

 

[Changleen]

Does Capital Punishment Reduce Homicides?

No, In the US's case it seems to increase them.

Looking specifically at murders of police officers, a 1998 FBI report showed that in the south, the region where the death penalty was used most frequently, 292 law enforcement officers were killed in a ten-year period. Whereas, in the north-east, which had fewest executions, the figure was 80.

The population is higher in the NE too, no? Violence begets violence.

 

[Tenchiro]

Executing a murdering may not prevent someone else from killing , but it will ensure he never does it again.

 

[Changleen]

I would argue that it is wrong to stoop to the level of the Murderer.

 

[reflux]

Executing a murdering may not prevent someone else from killing , but it will ensure he never does it again.

Life w/o parole wouldn't accomplish the same? Or is there another definition to the "no parole" part that I'm unaware of?

 

[Tenchiro]

Life w/o parole wouldn't accomplish the same? Or is there another definition to the "no parole" part that I'm unaware of?

Do you really want your taxes paying for that sort of thing? Especially when there are so many shortfalls where things like schools are concerned?

 

[Transcend]

I would argue that it is wrong to stoop to the level of the Murderer.

I would argue it's wrong for me to have to pay for some slime ball to eat, be clothed and have a roof over his head when he killed a family of 4 and their dog.

 

[Westy]

I would argue it's wrong for me to have to pay for some slime ball to eat, be clothed and have a roof over his head when he killed a family of 4 and their dog.

With all the court costs involved a death penalty usually costs more than a life sentence. For me spending the rest of my life in jail would be worse than death. I'd rather see the worst criminals rot than fry.

 

[Silver]

Can we drop the cost argument? Especially since it seems that actually exectuing a guy (and since he's dead, the appeals process is sort of important, right?) is more expensive than warehouseing him?

Besides, if the cost argument is the way to go, we need to start shooting seniors that get ill...

 

[Ciaran]

With all the court costs involved a death penalty usually costs more than a life sentence. For me spending the rest of my life in jail would be worse than death. I'd rather see the worst criminals rot than fry.

I agree. For me, being in jail the rest of my life would be worse than death.

I spent 9 days in a county jail once. Worst 9 days of my life so far. Jail really, really, really sucks. It's not something you can understand unless you have been there. And I was only in a county jail for nine days... it's not like I did hard time in a state or federal lock up.

 

[Changleen]

With all the court costs involved a death penalty usually costs more than a life sentence. For me spending the rest of my life in jail would be worse than death. I'd rather see the worst criminals rot than fry.

And why don't we make him work to offset the cost of his detention? That way he actually gives something back to society. I'm sure the prison population could be put to very constructive use with a bit of thought.

 

[Westy]

And why don't we make him work to offset the cost of his detention? That way he actually gives something back to society. I'm sure the prison population could be put to very constructive use with a bit of thought.

"They took our jobs"


I beleive most prisons have work programs.

 

[Ciaran]

And why don't we make him work to offset the cost of his detention? That way he actually gives something back to society. I'm sure the prison population could be put to very constructive use with a bit of thought.

Edit: Westy beat me to it...
Most prisoners do work various jobs in the jail. They do the cleaning, food prep and serving, etc. If the prisoners didn't do these we would be paying deputies and jailers to do it.

Although I would deny the worst offenders jobs. Jobs help pass the time faster and give you something to do. IMO it's much more difficult to sit in a cell and stare at a wall or read the same magazine for 20+ hours a day. Day after day after day after day after day...

Though I am all for daily beatings of rapists, murderers, and those that hurt children.

 

[MikeD]

I've got no moral problem with the death penalty at all. Does it reduce crime? I don't really care. People like the dude in "Dead Man Walking" should be ****ing shot in the back of the head immediately after sentencing. (Is it odd that the movie made me want to kill Sean Penn's character more than evoke any other emotion?)

What I do have a problem with is the actual application of the death penalty...it's used inequitably and doesn't seem to be worth the cost in dollars, effort, or morals.

My second problem is this bizarre attempt to make executions somehow a 'humane' and medical process, as if it's not barbaric. It is barbaric, and should be. It's a terrible thing (in terms of magnitude; not speaking normatively) to take someone's life...we shouldn't act like it's not. If you/we/me are going to do it, it's cowardly to try and reduce our own mental burden for the act by couching it in some 'humane' terms. Lethal injection is more sinister to me than a simple hanging or bullet to the head. I don't think we need to waste the time to eviscerate people or otherwise torture them...just throw out the trash and get on with life.

So it's a case of shape up or ship out, as far as I'm concerned.

MD

 

[sanjuro]

I am against the death penalty. Mostly, I think most murderers are idiots, and there is no conscious decision between life-in-prison vs. a death sentence. These guys kill because they are stupid, so a death sentence is not a deterrent.

 

[blt2ride]

Life w/o parole wouldn't accomplish the same? Or is there another definition to the "no parole" part that I'm unaware of?

You're missing a few things. It's rare, but not impossible for an inmate to escape from jail. In addition, inmates could murder innocent employees while on the inside (guards, medical staff, etc.).

 

[valve bouncer]

You're missing a few things. It's rare, but not impossible for an inmate to escape from jail. In addition, inmates could murder innocent employees while on the inside (guards, medical staff, etc.).

They could do all that on death row as well. Weak arguement imo.

 

[fluff]

They could do all that on death row as well. Weak arguement imo.

A pending death sentence might even give them more motivation to escape. And if you know you're gonna get executed for killing one person you might as well kill twenty...

 

[The Amish]

My second problem is this bizarre attempt to make executions somehow a 'humane' and medical process, as if it's not barbaric. It is barbaric, and should be. It's a terrible thing (in terms of magnitude; not speaking normatively) to take someone's life...we shouldn't act like it's not. If you/we/me are going to do it, it's cowardly to try and reduce our own mental burden for the act by couching it in some 'humane' terms. Lethal injection is more sinister to me than a simple hanging or bullet to the head. I don't think we need to waste the time to eviscerate people or otherwise torture them...just throw out the trash and get on with life.

So it's a case of shape up or ship out, as far as I'm concerned.

MD

Absolutely, If you get sentenced to death you should be marched out the courtroom to the nearest tree, sat on a horse, and strung up. YOur crime should be read then WHAM!!!!!! slap the horse in the ass, and call it a day. To much TV drama, has people thinkin most these people are somehow innocent, or reformable. The fact of the matter is most of them ARE monsters, and deserve to be in the situation your in. I mean come on, its not like we bust out the death penalty for stealin levis or something, ShIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIZ you can even get it for being the biggest drug trafficer in the country. IF its on the table its there for a reason. STring em up

 

[ummbikes]

A flawed judicial system shouldn't have the ability to kill as punishment.

 

[Old Man G Funk]

Absolutely, If you get sentenced to death you should be marched out the courtroom to the nearest tree, sat on a horse, and strung up. YOur crime should be read then WHAM!!!!!! slap the horse in the ass, and call it a day. To much TV drama, has people thinkin most these people are somehow innocent, or reformable. The fact of the matter is most of them ARE monsters, and deserve to be in the situation your in. I mean come on, its not like we bust out the death penalty for stealin levis or something, ShIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIZ you can even get it for being the biggest drug trafficer in the country. IF its on the table its there for a reason. STring em up

"Most" of them are monsters? So, what about the ones that are not monsters? What about the ones that are actually innocent, and yes that does happen. Innocent people are convicted and sentenced to death. After you take one of them outside and hang them only to find out later that the person was innocent, what do you do? Do you just say, "Well, that's too bad, sucks to be that person?" Will you be the one to go tell the person's family that (s)he was put to death for a crime they didn't commit?

 

[valve bouncer]

Interesting that the hang-em high brigade haven't even attempted to defend capital punishment on the grounds of deterrence. While morally bankrupt it seems the only arguement they can sustain is the revenge angle.

 

[Pau11y]

As it's chestnut season here's another old one, with a seasonal flavour from the BBChttp://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4457402.stm

Interesting stat at the end:

Perhaps the most striking difference between Britain and the US is the number of homicides committed with firearms.

In the States, it is around 70%. Here (in the UK), some 6%.

Capital punishment won't reduce the number of firearm related murders, removing the tool that causes the deaths will. The human body is pretty rugged and it takes a LOT to kill someone w/o a tool such as a gun. I mean w/o training, you'd need to stab someone a lot of times to cause enough blood loss to die. And, often a stabbing is done in a fit of rage so clarity in thinking to REALLY focus on killing is not all there.
The funny thing is our criminal system considers gun related deaths as a less "violent" death than stabbing, and understandabley so. But when the punishment reflects this thinking it's kinda wacked. I mean dead is dead right...by gun, knife, car, or baseball bat.

 

[Pau11y]

I've got no moral problem with the death penalty at all. Does it reduce crime? I don't really care. People like the dude in "Dead Man Walking" should be ****ing shot in the back of the head immediately after sentencing....
What I do have a problem with is the actual application of the death penalty...it's used inequitably and doesn't seem to be worth the cost in dollars, effort, or morals.

My second problem is this bizarre attempt to make executions somehow a 'humane' and medical process, as if it's not barbaric. It is barbaric, and should be. It's a terrible thing (in terms of magnitude; not speaking normatively) to take someone's life...we shouldn't act like it's not. If you/we/me are going to do it, it's cowardly to try and reduce our own mental burden for the act by couching it in some 'humane' terms. Lethal injection is more sinister to me than a simple hanging or bullet to the head. I don't think we need to waste the time to eviscerate people or otherwise torture them...just throw out the trash and get on with life.

So it's a case of shape up or ship out, as far as I'm concerned.

MD

I'm with you on the back of the head thing. Tho one very important thing is our crimial justice system is not infalable and an over zealous cop or DA can put someone behind bars that doesn't belong (or in our case, a bullet in the back of the head when the guy is actually innocent). Quick and easy isn't quite so quick and so easy when there's a "oops" involved every now and then. What do we do if there is one? Do we put a bullet in the back of the cops or the DAs head? (actually I don't like cops or DAs so this is not much of an arguement for me...).

Edit: I just want to throw wrenches into people's thinking and am not sitting on the fense either way. BUT, I do believe in gun control (or in the current stage of the game...the lack of )

 

[dan-o]

Interesting that the hang-em high brigade haven't even attempted to defend capital punishment on the grounds of deterrence.

Isn't deterrance what laws are for? Capital punishment, in theory, is reserved for those who have no regard for the law at the most heinous level.

 

[The Amish]

"Most" of them are monsters? So, what about the ones that are not monsters? What about the ones that are actually innocent, and yes that does happen. Innocent people are convicted and sentenced to death. After you take one of them outside and hang them only to find out later that the person was innocent, what do you do? Do you just say, "Well, that's too bad, sucks to be that person?" Will you be the one to go tell the person's family that (s)he was put to death for a crime they didn't commit?

YOu watch too much law and order. Put the remote down and do something productive with your life. I'd be willing to bet that the number of inmates exucted in our modern day judical system (never mind the wild west, and the old days)that were actually innocent are extremely low. Seriously, its got to be pretty hard to get mistaken for a murderer. The amount of evidence needed to warrant a death sentence makes the notion there could be a case of mistaken identity pretty much absurd. Not to mention losing like 3 appeals cases ontop of that. Be real, its not like we try people with a noose around there neck standing on the gallows

 

[Andyman_1970]

Since I'm "pro-life" across the board that means I'm against captial pusnishment as well.........I find it hypocritical hearing Christians who are anti- abortion but pro capital punishment.

 

[fluff]

YOu watch too much law and order. Put the remote down and do something productive with your life. I'd be willing to bet that the number of inmates exucted in our modern day judical system (never mind the wild west, and the old days)that were actually innocent are extremely low. Seriously, its got to be pretty hard to get mistaken for a murderer. The amount of evidence needed to warrant a death sentence makes the notion there could be a case of mistaken identity pretty much absurd. Not to mention losing like 3 appeals cases ontop of that. Be real, its not like we try people with a noose around there neck standing on the gallows

People have been on death row and then exonerated. How many innocent people are you prepared to sacrifice? 1 in 10? 1 in 100, 1 in 1000?

 

[valve bouncer]

Isn't deterrance what laws are for? Capital punishment, in theory, is reserved for those who have no regard for the law at the most heinous level.

The law isn't the deterrent, it's the punishment for breaking that law that is the deterrent. Clearly the most severe punishment available does not deter murders so as I said the rationale for having capital punishment must be revenge.

 

[Old Man G Funk]

YOu watch too much law and order. Put the remote down and do something productive with your life. I'd be willing to bet that the number of inmates exucted in our modern day judical system (never mind the wild west, and the old days)that were actually innocent are extremely low. Seriously, its got to be pretty hard to get mistaken for a murderer. The amount of evidence needed to warrant a death sentence makes the notion there could be a case of mistaken identity pretty much absurd. Not to mention losing like 3 appeals cases ontop of that. Be real, its not like we try people with a noose around there neck standing on the gallows

Thank you fluff for saying what I would have said next. Let me add to that by asking how many you would be willing to sacrifice if you were the 1 in however many.

If I were watching too much Law and Order, I'd be like you, because they never get it wrong on that show, not by the end at least.

I'll also add that there are many documented cases of people who were sentenced to death and later exhonerated. There are documented cases of this. There are documented cases of people whose defense attorneys fell asleep during the trial.

There's documented evidence that African Americans are much more likely to get the death penalty that Whites, or that killing a white person is much more likely to merit the death penalty than killing a black person.

Let's also not forget that you were advocating taking people out and shooting them the minute they are convicted. So, your argument that they get appeals is completely fallacious.

 

[dante]

YOu watch too much law and order. Put the remote down and do something productive with your life. I'd be willing to bet that the number of inmates exucted in our modern day judical system (never mind the wild west, and the old days)that were actually innocent are extremely low. Seriously, its got to be pretty hard to get mistaken for a murderer. The amount of evidence needed to warrant a death sentence makes the notion there could be a case of mistaken identity pretty much absurd. Not to mention losing like 3 appeals cases ontop of that. Be real, its not like we try people with a noose around there neck standing on the gallows

Love it how people aren't concerned about innocent people getting put to death as long as its not their own life thats on the line...

 

[MudGrrl]

Put the remote down and do something productive with your life.

Hoo, boy... them's fightin' words.
I am pretty dmn sure GFunk's productive.

Seriously, its got to be pretty hard to get mistaken for a murderer. The amount of evidence needed to warrant a death sentence makes the notion there could be a case of mistaken identity pretty much absurd.

Uhm... Ruben Cantu
"The eyewitness, Juan Moreno, told the Chronicle that it wasn't Cantu who shot him. Moreno said he identified Cantu as the killer during his 1985 trial because he felt pressured and was afraid of authorities. "
"Meanwhile, Cantu's co-defendant, David Garza, recently signed a sworn affidavit saying he allowed his friend to be accused, even though Cantu wasn't with him the night of the killing."

Be real, its not like we try people with a noose around there neck standing on the gallows

Absolutely, If you get sentenced to death you should be marched out the courtroom to the nearest tree, sat on a horse, and strung up. YOur crime should be read then WHAM!!!!!! slap the horse in the ass, and call it a day.

So, you're all about hanging people off the back of a horse, but it's not ok if you don't have a horse involved?

 

[The Amish]

There's documented evidence that African Americans are much more likely to get the death penalty that Whites, or that killing a white person is much more likely to merit the death penalty than killing a black person

Ever stop to think that it might be because black people commit far more murders than white People. I dont have the numbers to back this claim up, but based on everything I read and see on tv its got to be more true than not. I live in rochester NY, which happens to have an extremely high poverty rate and thus a very rough ghetto. Without even listening to the news or reading a paper I can pretty much garuntee that I will see a story about some black guy shooting another black guy when I go home and flip on the news. IN fact Id be willing to bet money on it. Any takers? Do we have white murders up here, Sure, but the ratio has to be 10 to 1 and thats being modest. Most our white criminals are pedaphiles which is frankly just as bad if not worse, bUt just to show how even handed I can be with my justice I say we hang them too. So do black people get executed more than white people, probably. but only cause they commit far more murders.





Here comes the your a racist post. Whos it gonna be?

 

[The Amish]

So, you're all about hanging people off the back of a horse, but it's not ok if you don't have a horse involved?

NOw your getting it. The horse is whats gonna turn it into good tv. Afterall thats all we americans care about isn't it. Isupport all forms of cruel and unusual punishment from stickin panties on peoples heads right down to chopin it clean off. You know what would be realy great though. Bringing back crucifictions. Half time of the monday night football game, we could line em all up at the 50 yard line and nail em to a cross. The monday night crucifictions. That would be good tv

 

[narlus]

Here comes the your a racist post. Whos it gonna be?

<raises hand>

the spelling/grammar gave it away, didn't it?

ever hear of percentages? not talking absolute numbers here. there is no denying that black males, on a percentage basis, commit more murders than any other group. (http://www.prisonpolicy.org/graphs/murderrates.shtml)

but who they kill has a marked impact on the charges sought:

from http://www.aclu.org/DeathPenalty/DeathPenalty.cfm?ID=9312&c=62

While white victims account for approximately one-half of all murder victims, 80% of all Capital cases involve white victims.

of course, because that stat is from the ACLU site, it's immediately suspect.

interesting opinion pieces here:
http://www.abanet.org/publiced/focus/spr97rac.html

 

[narlus]

Fluff, to answer your question. NO.

from http://www.karisable.com/crpundeath.htm

The two states with the most executions in 2003, Texas 24, and Oklahoma 14, saw increases in their murder rates from 2002 to 2003. Both states had murder rates above the national average in 2003: Texas - 6.4, and Oklahoma - 5.9. The top 13 states in terms of murder rates were all death penalty states. The murder rate of the death penalty states increased from 2002, while the rate in non-death penalty states decreased

 

[Trailhead]

He helped write the California death penalty

According to him, the way the system is set up there is too much
room for error, which we have already seen in Texas.

 

[PonySoldier]

In 2000 George Ryan, the Governor of Illinois and a Death Penalty advocate, suspended the Death Penalty in Illinois because of concerns about serious flaws in the system. In 2003 he commuted 167 death penalty sentences to Life Sentences.

 

[Jeremy R]

Here is a case you can debate that will hit close to home.

http://www.thekansascitychannel.com/news/5390917/detail.html

 

[downhilldemon]

does threating people who are going to commit suicide with the death penalty do anything?
No..............