does the fox 36 suck, after all?

ThePriceSeliger · Jul 14, 2005

I think 5.3-5.5 is in the sub 5 lb area

syadasti · Jul 14, 2005

Sounds more like cognitive dissonance to convince yourself not to buy one

I like the fork MUCH more than either the TPC+ or SPV shermans I've owned/used and haven't had a problem with them yet...

J5ive · Jul 14, 2005

Same, I love mine. I've had all manner of Manitou and Marzocchi forks. Best thing about the 36 is the stiffness! Mine lives in the lowest travel setting, though when I have changed the travel I havent had any issues. It is definatly a different feel to a coil fork- not in a bad way, just different.

Meh. Some people are never happy.

BTW- Checked the 36 vanilla if you want more travel and coil feel.

The Kadvang · Jul 14, 2005

priceseliger14 said:
I think 5.3-5.5 is in the sub 5 lb area

Price baby, you do know that "sub five pounds" means less than five pounds, right?

smedford · Jul 14, 2005

as in Submarine, or sub par, or sub zero.

ThePriceSeliger · Jul 14, 2005

The Kadvang said:
Price baby, you do know that "sub five pounds" means less than five pounds, right?

:angry: i knew that, gosh!

lovebunny · Jul 14, 2005

priceseliger14 said:
I think 5.3-5.5 is in the sub 5 lb area

heh. wow

Jm_ · Jul 14, 2005

Well, I've been thinking about a heavier duty fork for the front of my 6 pack. My AM1 is on the light side and a "trail riding" fork, just a hair under 5lbs and coil sprung. I need something stronger for shuttle run days and DHing though. I was really interested in the fox 40 at one point.

My best riding buddy is a friend with someone that works in the fox factory, and he gets lots of free stuff and non-standard mods. He got one of the 36s and so far, it seems to be exactly what we thought it would be. It's a huge talas fork, and unfortunatly the talas system is just too linear for certain kinds of riding. We did a panic stop to stop about 40-50 feet before some horses and he remarked about how it sunk through most of the travel doing that. He doesn't seem to be complaining as much as when he used the talas 130, but my experience on the talas 130 mirrors his; it's simply too linear and dives in steep technical terrain, and upping the pressure makes it much harsher.

What other non-marzocchi manufacturers really haven't nailed down yet is the fact that different riders of the SAME weight will ride comletely different and require a different amount of progressiveness. Someone that rides very lightly and not very fast can use a pretty linear fork, someone that just thrashes and tries to find any and every obstacle to launch off of will need a lot more progression. This is simply a critical adjustment for a performance fork IMO. To be fair, you can send the 36 back to fox to have them put in a different anti-bottoming cone, BUT that only affects the very last part of the travel, and not the overal rate, so there can still be a huge "spike" where it feels like it's bottoming, just that it's not completely destroying itself. The 36 is also heavier than they claimed it would be, and the axle to crown is pretty darn high, a bit higher than a similer travel marzocchi. We tested the 36 in 110m travel setting against my AM1 with my ETA on and my AM1 was several inches lower.

I'm not getting into the "shrinking travel" problem, but I'll say that this problem seems to be somewhat widespread. There appears to be a temp fix for it.

The 36 is one stiff mutha, and I think the coil vanilla model will see a bit more sucess, and what sounds cool is that you can adjust the travel internally with spacers. At this point I see the negatives as outweighing the positives. For almost the same weight (5.6lbs) I think I'll save some beans for a Z1FR 150mm, with the ETA function I can easily climb and deal with the added height (I run my AM1 in 5" mode most of the time) and the 20mm axle and 150mm travel will definitely inspire confidence and handle the terrain well. The ETA and the progressiveness adjustment are what do it for me, those two things pretty much kick any other fork out of the water. The Z1 FR is kind of "middle of the road" like the 36, maybe a little more biased to freeriding, but obviously it's no 66. When other fork makers get on the boat and start offering decent progressiveness adjustments that work well (and don't affect compression like SPV does) things may finally change. I've worked on more than one fox fork, and I can tell you that the recommendations to use the standard oil heights are completely true. Fox seals are 2-in-1 with the oil seal and dust wiper co-located. They are not setup like other forks with a dedicated heavy duty oil seal.

syadasti · Jul 14, 2005

An uncut firefly plus and 36 RC2 both weigh about 5.3 lbs, not 5.5...

Breakout Plus uncut weighs around 5.5 or a little more, depending the month - the quality control at Manitou isn't the greatest...

syadasti · Jul 14, 2005

Jm_ said:
The 36 is also heavier than they claimed it would be, and the axle to crown is pretty darn high, a bit higher than a similer travel marzocchi. We tested the 36 in 110m travel setting against my AM1 with my ETA on and my AM1 was several inches lower.

You are comparing an AM fork to a FR fork. A Talas AM fork is shorter than the Marz. AM series in the same travel. A 36 series fork is shorter than a 05 66 in the same travel (for 06, they will be the same height in the same travel).

I weight about 150 lbs., so I am not having a huge issue with the linear problem heavier riders are might be feeling (which can be changed with the cone fix).

ioscope · Jul 14, 2005

SOunds like they foxxed up over there at the t-shirt company.

buildyourown · Jul 14, 2005

ioscope said:
SOunds like they foxxed up over there at the t-shirt company.

Uhhh, they're not the same company.
Maybe your just being smart....

Jm_ · Jul 14, 2005

syadasti said:
You are comparing an AM fork to a FR fork.

No, a Z150 or 2005 Z1FR is a few mm lower than a Fox 36 set at 150mm.

syadasti said:
I weight about 150 lbs., so I am not having a huge issue with the linear problem heavier riders are might be feeling (which can be changed with the cone fix).

No, changing a bottom out cone won't make the overal stroke more progressive, it will have the same stroke untill it reaches that point. So that won't help the linear problem or the diving, only the actual bottom out. Not really the solution I am looking for, which is a more progressive stroke.

WheelieMan · Jul 14, 2005

Jm_ said:
My best riding buddy is a friend with someone that works in the fox factory, and he gets lots of free stuff and non-standard mods. He got one of the 36s and so far, it seems to be exactly what we thought it would be. It's a huge talas fork, and unfortunatly the talas system is just too linear for certain kinds of riding. We did a panic stop to stop about 40-50 feet before some horses and he remarked about how it sunk through most of the travel doing that. He doesn't seem to be complaining as much as when he used the talas 130, but my experience on the talas 130 mirrors his; it's simply too linear and dives in steep technical terrain, and upping the pressure makes it much harsher.

How do you think the progressivity of the 36 air will compare to that of the 36 coil? Same as the difference between talas and vanilla?

Zutroy · Jul 14, 2005

priceseliger14 said:
I think 5.3-5.5 is in the sub 5 lb area

If your in the marketing department for all the fork companies it is..............

JRB · Jul 14, 2005

priceseliger14 said:
I think 5.3-5.5 is in the sub 5 lb area

Looks like that 454 horsepower laptop won't just be running a word processor. :think:

smedford · Jul 14, 2005

It seems like some people put on blinders and defend certain companies such as Fox just because they shelled out the dough to get the latest product they offer. Look at the big picture. It is a new product. You are smarter than that. Be honest.

syadasti · Jul 14, 2005

Jm_ said:
No, a Z150 or 2005 Z1FR is a few mm lower than a Fox 36 set at 150mm.

Yes but those aren't quite the same category forks, a 36 is stiffer and stronger. 66 would be closest, but slightly beefier.

In 06, a 150mm 36 and a 66 150mm will be exactly the same height, 535mm where as this year the 66 is much taller (taller than an 8" boxxer even!)

Bulldog · Jul 14, 2005

Jm_ said:
No, a Z150 or 2005 Z1FR is a few mm lower than a Fox 36 set at 150mm.

When did that happen? I thought the 36 was 535mm and the Z.1's and AM's were 538mm, no?

Jm_ · Jul 14, 2005

Bulldog said:
When did that happen? I thought the 36 was 535mm and the Z.1's and AM's were 538mm, no?

36 about 540mm. Measured em and compared side by side.

LOOnatic · Jul 14, 2005

Jm_ said:
36 about 540mm. Measured em and compared side by side.

Hey JM as we all know the travel on the 36's is upped a tad for 06 so is that A-C measurement of 540mm on an 05 or 06?
Thanks .

legend_killer · Jul 14, 2005

syadasti said:
66 is much taller (taller than an 8" boxxer even!)

yeah the 170mm is but not the 150mm, also the 36 Talas is not a freeride fork, it is an AM fork :nope:

Jm_ · Jul 14, 2005

LOOnatic said:
Hey JM as we all know the travel on the 36's is upped a tad for 06 so is that A-C measurement of 540mm on an 05 or 06?
Thanks .

Well, all the 05 and 06 TALAS 36 forks have "150mm" of travel, although the fox rep says it's ~145-150mm due to variances in pressure in the talas cartridge. The 06 36 Vanilla has 160mm of travel, so one would guess it will be 10mm higher (there's no extra stanchion space on a 36 so it would have be be higher to get more travel).

I don't mean to say that these forks are "bad" at all. These are great forks for many people, they are not trash and fox's damping cartridges are right up there with the best, but IMO it's not a complete package when it doesn't include a way to adjust progressivness.

leprechaun · Jul 14, 2005

I have to egree with jm,progressiveness is key.Tht'a why i still like the Zoke z1 fr.Or the classic Vanilla 130.

The only way to get progressiveness is a tuneable oil height(zoke),progressive coil springs(old Foes Wet one i had that had 3 springs in one leg) or progressive damping/position sensitive damping(888/66) The 36 has none of these.The dampers DO work and work well but the plushness goes away when the damping is cranked up!

Z1 FR1 YO!

oly · Jul 14, 2005

buildyourown said:
Uhhh, they're not the same company.
Maybe your just being smart....

He lives on Vashon where there is a constant fog of weed from all the hippies who bought one way tickets to the island back in the 60's......

punkassean · Jul 14, 2005

I am loving the 36. It doesn't seem overly linear to me. I use a few clicks of the HSC to prevent bottoming and or diving. I have been riding the fork on everything from the notoriously rocky trails of SB to the buttery smooth UCSC area trails and the fork handles it all very well. I have played with the settings quite a bit but the end result is very satisfactory. I am still getting about 147mm travel which is fine as far as I'm concerned.

Nobody comlpains when people refer to the Sherman Slider or the Super T as a "7-inch" travel fork when in reality it is a 170mm fork which is further from a full 7" than the 36 is from a full 6". Perhaps the complainers would have preferred if Fox called it a "6-inch" fork instead of 150mm? You won't know the difference between 145 or 150mm (or 153 for that matter) on the trail. Also as much as I like the price and performance of the Sherman line you cannot begin to compare them to the quality of a Fox product.

gonzostrike · Jul 14, 2005

I think Jm nailed it when he discussed the fact that there are different riders with different styles and goals when riding trail. No doubt there are LOTS of folks who don't really push their equipment, and are riding a 5 lbs 6" travel air/air fork because it's light and it's supposedly 6" of travel. it's as loony as those people who say they think FS design will some day pedal "like a hardtail" while remaining fully active. they're just not really understanding the suspension dynamics that are relevant to those of us who USE our suspension travel in the way most designers intend - not just as a talking point when you're BSing with your MTB buddies, or for posing on the bike resting atop of your car.

you don't have to be a heavy rider to appreciate progressive damping adjustments. I am 5'10" and 155 lbs w/o gear, 165 or so w/ hydrapak etc. I cannot possibly be happy on linear suspension for the reasons Jm said -- I pop off stuff and land with the intent of gaining some speed as I manage the suspension's action... I'm not just Harvey Pinner riding at a slow crawl "using" my suspension to "take the edge off". any time I've tried air suspension it's bothered me, because of the linearity. I can ride and enjoy a Manitou coil Minute 1:00 on my hardtail rig, but not the air/air Minute 2:00, mainly because the 2:00 requires too much PSI to prevent bottoming, and then the too-high PSI makes the fork too stiff in its travel.

the gang of folks building 30 lbs 6"/6" bikes probably love the 36.

people who play while they ride probably don't, unless they have access to custom tuning and a factory wrench.

OGRipper · Jul 14, 2005

gonzostrike said:
any time I've tried air suspension it's bothered me, because of the linearity.

Interesting, I've always found air to have more progressiveness than coils unless the coil (fork or shock) has speed or position-sensitive damping. The key for me is being able to tune the size of the air chamber so it has a desired ramp up as you move through the travel. By changing the size of the chamber and the pressure, you can usually tune in a proper amount of small bump sensitivity and still get decent bottoming resistence. So for example if the 36 had an AVA style volume adjuster, it would probably go a long way to solve the problem.

The folks at fox must be pulling their hair out - for years people said they didn't like air forks because they weren't plush or linear enough like their favorite coil forks. So Fox delivers a linear air fork and people want more progression. I guess the only way to win is to provide a separate feature to tune in bottoming resistence.

But I agree with what you and others have said, being able to tune bottoming resistence should be a feature on any high-end shock or fork because different people want different things. And sometime the same person wants different things, depending on the ride and conditions.

MikeD · Jul 14, 2005

gonzostrike said:
I think Jm nailed it when he discussed the fact that there are different riders with different styles and goals when riding trail. No doubt there are LOTS of folks who don't really push their equipment, and are riding a 5 lbs 6" travel air/air fork because it's light and it's supposedly 6" of travel. it's as loony as those people who say they think FS design will some day pedal "like a hardtail" while remaining fully active. they're just not really understanding the suspension dynamics that are relevant to those of us who USE our suspension travel in the way most designers intend - not just as a talking point when you're BSing with your MTB buddies, or for posing on the bike resting atop of your car.

you don't have to be a heavy rider to appreciate progressive damping adjustments. I am 5'10" and 155 lbs w/o gear, 165 or so w/ hydrapak etc. I cannot possibly be happy on linear suspension for the reasons Jm said -- I pop off stuff and land with the intent of gaining some speed as I manage the suspension's action... I'm not just Harvey Pinner riding at a slow crawl "using" my suspension to "take the edge off". any time I've tried air suspension it's bothered me, because of the linearity. I can ride and enjoy a Manitou coil Minute 1:00 on my hardtail rig, but not the air/air Minute 2:00, mainly because the 2:00 requires too much PSI to prevent bottoming, and then the too-high PSI makes the fork too stiff in its travel.

the gang of folks building 30 lbs 6"/6" bikes probably love the 36.

people who play while they ride probably don't, unless they have access to custom tuning and a factory wrench.

As badass as you apparently are, Punkasssean is no slouch, either. When Zark talks about him pinning it in Santa Barbara, you're talking about a serious test of both rider and bike. Those trails are 100% pure rock-big ones, unrelenting, the whole way down to sea level. (edit: those trails were a major factor in me deciding to buy a full-on DH bike, in fact) And the man claims to be enjoying his 36 without finding any huge shortcomings...I'd think more of his opinion (with the consideration that people *want* to like gear they've spent mega-bucks on) than an overall indictment of air suspension.

I don't think air suspension is to be relegated just to those 'lame' riders who don't push their gear.

Then again, I wonder if it'd be possible for Fox to put in some kind of AVA sleeve/anti-bottom dial or valve, because that'd be a great addition to tuning the fork. I'd love to try a 36 myself; intriguing fork to me, but I sure wouldn't buy one without giving one a few hard runs first. And my 1.5 steertube Firefly apparently weighs about the same anyhow.

MD

gonzostrike · Jul 14, 2005

OGRipper said:
Interesting, I've always found air to have more progressiveness than coils unless the coil (fork or shock) has speed or position-sensitive damping. The key for me is being able to tune the size of the air chamber so it has a desired ramp up as you move through the travel. By changing the size of the chamber and the pressure, you can usually tune in a proper amount of small bump sensitivity and still get decent bottoming resistence. So for example if the 36 had an AVA style volume adjuster, it would probably go a long way to solve the problem.

I've never ridden any that had had such volume adjustment, apart from the tiny air chamber that the SPV and SPV Evolve have (PSI and volume both adjustable). My Minute 2:00 can get air chamber PSI and external rebound adjustments, with SPV PSI & volume as well. But not any volume adjustment on the main spring chamber.

I think there's also the issue of preference -- obviously some riders are using AND enjoying the 36 and 40 forks, and among them are some VERY talented riders, people whose skills put the rest of us to shame. such folks must like the air feel, and must be either very adept at tuning their forks or have someone who can do that tuning.

gonzostrike · Jul 14, 2005

MikeD said:
As badass as you apparently are, Punkasssean is no slouch, either. When Zark talks about him pinning it in Santa Barbara, you're talking about a serious test of both rider and bike. Those trails are 100% pure rock-big ones, unrelenting, the whole way down to sea level.

I wasn't commenting AT ALL on punkasssean's riding ability. I have no idea where this comes from, Mike, but you obviously read something in my post which isn't there.

My point has much more to do with how I ride, not COMPETING or COMPARING my skills to anyone. If you feel threatened by me talking about how I ride, I suggest you avoid MTB discussion forums.

MikeD · Jul 14, 2005

gonzostrike said:
I wasn't commenting AT ALL on punkasssean's riding ability. I have no idea where this comes from, Mike, but you obviously read something in my post which isn't there.

My point has much more to do with how I ride, not COMPETING or COMPARING my skills to anyone. If you feel threatened by me talking about how I ride, I suggest you avoid MTB discussion forums.

Never said you were...wasn't critiquing you, just saying that some people DO ride hard with air suspension.

You were implying that air suspension wasn't appropriate for people who ride hard, just the "Harvey Pinner" described in your post.

MD

Kntr · Jul 14, 2005

Ive ridden my buddies 36RC and the thing is super stiff. The only way to get the thing not to bottom is to pump up the air pressure then the plushness is GONE. Ill stick to Zoke till Fox figures progressiveness out.

punkassean · Jul 15, 2005

Anybody in the So Cal area is welcome to take my bike for a spin, I can't say that I've bottomed the fork once and I have plowed some serious g-outs/dips/drops etc. I've taken the fork down tunnel 7 times in the past ten days and we rode cold springs today. The fork feels awesome, plush and is very resistant to bottoming.

I weigh ~155 and am running (I think) 50psi and zero clicks of low-speed and about 4 clicks of high-speed compression. FWIW I loved my old 5" TALAS fork also so maybe I just think this feeling that some are labeling a "problem" is actually a good thing. LAstly need I remind said complainers that Fox can adjust the internal bottom out damper from the factory setting of medium to hard or soft as desired by the customer. After extensively fiddling with my fork I can't see how a person couldn't get the fork feeling to their liking with the hard bottom out bumper and at least a few clicks of the HSC adjuster. Just my $.02.

BTW: I bought my fork through the shop I work at so I didn't pay a ridiculous amount of money for it. It wasn't cheap by any means but I'd like to think that I'm not biased by the price or anything of that nature.

dhtahoe · Jul 15, 2005

The only issue with any fork is people lacking skills to set THAT fork up.

djjohnr · Jul 15, 2005

Only problem I can see with the fork is the leaky TALAS issue. However my dealings with Fox have shown them to be very responsive to customer issues, so I wouldn't worry about it much. Other then that it can be tuned to ones liking if you know what your doing (granted all the ones I've felt on the floor feel like poop). I'm putting a 36 Van on my ASX as soon as my shoulder heals, and I will probably pick up a TALAS version next year if I buy a trail bike with an air shock (I like to match air/air or coil/coil).

trailhacker · Jul 15, 2005

5.34 lbs with Fox supplied star-nut and King crown race installed, steerer cut to 8-1/4".
This also includes axle. I didn't bring any tools with me so I couldn't remove it when I weighed it.
It doesn't include the housing guide for the front brake though.
FWIW

does the fox 36 suck, after all?

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