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Donald Trump’s Presidency 2017 - 2021 AND 2025-202X

Pesqueeb

Pesqueeb

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Food for thought.

Maintaining the moral high ground isn’t always easy. It means you have to hold your party to a higher standard than the other party. It means you sometimes have to make real trade-offs. But it can also pay political dividends and mitigate political risks. Democrats just lost an election in 2016 against a historically unpopular candidate because their candidate was disliked nearly as much. The political environment is favorable for Democrats in 2018, but perhaps the easiest way that Democrats could blow their opportunity is if voters conclude that as bad as Republicans are, Democrats are no better. With Democrats coming around to a tougher stance on Franken and Conyers while Republicans equivocate on Moore and restore funding to his campaign, they’ll be able to draw a clearer distinction for voters.
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stevew

stevew

resident influencer
Sep 21, 2001
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Pesqueeb said:
Franken could have switched parties. He'd have been welcomed with open arms and given the full support of the GOP apparatus.
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do you not think it was funny they threw conyers under the bus before franken....dare i say racist...
 
Westy

Westy

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Nov 22, 2002
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stevew said:
do you not think it was funny they threw conyers under the bus before franken....dare i say racist...
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Minnesota has a Democratic Governor, that senate seat will be replaced with another democrat. Michigan has a Republican Governor, Conyers stepping down would likely result in another seat lost to the Republicans.


But Chicago, or something like that.
 
jonKranked

jonKranked

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Westy said:
Minnesota has a Democratic Governor, that senate seat will be replaced with another democrat. Michigan has a Republican Governor, Conyers stepping down would likely result in another seat lost to the Republicans.


But Chicago, or something like that.
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hillary is going to email some uranium from benghazi to fill conyers seat
 
stevew

stevew

resident influencer
Sep 21, 2001
41,186
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Westy said:
Minnesota has a Democratic Governor, that senate seat will be replaced with another democrat. Michigan has a Republican Governor, Conyers stepping down would likely result in another seat lost to the Republicans.
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is it not just to fill out the term before a special election is held?

and how large of a margin did franken win that seat.....300 or so votes....no guarantee it stays blue....

how much of a margin does conyers win by when he runs...if republicans bother running someone...
 
Pesqueeb

Pesqueeb

bicycle in airplane hangar
Feb 2, 2007
41,928
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Riding past the morgue.
stevew said:
do you not think it was funny they threw conyers under the bus before franken....dare i say racist...
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Because we live in a reality where we perceive time as linear?

I did a little digging, and while it's certainly possible I've missed something, I also don't want to spend all morning looking this shit up. Accusations against Franken first came up Nov. 16, and Schumer called on him to resign Dec 6. The key word here, being accusations. No other women came forward against Franken until Nov. 20.

Also, on Nov 20, Buzzfeed published its story about Conyers which clearly documents a legal settlement by Conyers which contained documents of allegations by at least 4 women. Two days later calls for his resignation began.

Accusations spread over several weeks vs. "I settled a lawsuit but pinky swear I didn't actually do anything" kind of aren't the same thing.
 
Westy

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
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stevew said:
is it not just to fill out the term before a special election is held?

and how large of a margin did franken win that seat.....300 or so votes....no guarantee it stays blue....

how much of a margin does conyers win by when he runs...if republicans bother running someone...
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It depends on the state.
 
Adventurous

Adventurous

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Mar 19, 2014
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Pesqueeb said:
Food for thought.
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http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2017/12/the_republicans_have_built_an_uneven_playing_field_of_morality.html

A different viewpoint on the subject...

I'm tempted to agree with the Slate article, the "moral high ground" argument registers for those who are solidly or lean Democrat in the first place. For "the other side", the purge is little more than a congratulatory pat on your own back. Our political system is perverted to the degree that it's all about notching a "win", by whatever means possible. I fear that, even though its the right thing to do, losing Franken and Conyers will be see more as a political win than doing what's necessary to respect the women of this country.
 
Toshi

Toshi

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Oct 23, 2001
39,878
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stevew said:
is it not just to fill out the term before a special election is held?

and how large of a margin did franken win that seat.....300 or so votes....no guarantee it stays blue....

how much of a margin does conyers win by when he runs...if republicans bother running someone...
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His initial election margin was slim but not the re-election, iirc.
 
stevew

stevew

resident influencer
Sep 21, 2001
41,186
10,121
Pesqueeb said:
Because we live in a reality where we perceive time as linear?

I did a little digging, and while it's certainly possible I've missed something, I also don't want to spend all morning looking this shit up. Accusations against Franken first came up Nov. 16, and Schumer called on him to resign Dec 6. The key word here, being accusations. No other women came forward against Franken until Nov. 20.

Also, on Nov 20, Buzzfeed published its story about Conyers which clearly documents a legal settlement by Conyers which contained documents of allegations by at least 4 women. Two days later calls for his resignation began.

Accusations spread over several weeks vs. "I settled a lawsuit but pinky swear I didn't actually do anything" kind of aren't the same thing.
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conyers lawyer was not amused.....

who am i to tell a black man what is racist and what isn't....
 
Sandro

Sandro

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Nov 12, 2006
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Nothing to do with Trump, but it's another one of those headlines where i need to doublecheck whether i'm reading the Post or the Onion.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/states-choose-new-ways-to-execute-prisoners-their-latest-idea-opioids/2017/12/09/3eb9bafa-d539-11e7-95bf-df7c19270879_story.html

The powerful synthetic painkiller fentanyl has been the driving force behind the nation’s opioid epidemic, killing tens of thousands of Americans last year in overdoses. Now Nevada and Nebraska are pushing for the country’s first fentanyl-assisted executions, and doctors and death penalty opponents are fighting those plans.
 
Pesqueeb

Pesqueeb

bicycle in airplane hangar
Feb 2, 2007
41,928
19,283
Riding past the morgue.
Adventurous said:
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2017/12/the_republicans_have_built_an_uneven_playing_field_of_morality.html

A different viewpoint on the subject...

I'm tempted to agree with the Slate article, the "moral high ground" argument registers for those who are solidly or lean Democrat in the first place. For "the other side", the purge is little more than a congratulatory pat on your own back. Our political system is perverted to the degree that it's all about notching a "win", by whatever means possible. I fear that, even though its the right thing to do, losing Franken and Conyers will be see more as a political win than doing what's necessary to respect the women of this country.
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Who knows why the GOP has lost its last ethical moorings? But this is a perfectly transactional moment in governance, and what we get in exchange for being good and moral right now is nothing. I’m not saying we should hit pause on #MeToo, or direct any less fury at sexual predators in their every manifestation. But we should understand that while we know that our good faith and reasonableness are virtues, we currently live in a world where it’s also a handicap.

Unilateral disarmament is tantamount to arming the other side. That may be a trade worth making in some cases. But it’s worth at least acknowledging that this is the current calculus. It’s no longer that when they go low, we get to go high. They are permanently living underground. How long can we afford to keep living in the clouds?
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I read that article when you first posted it, and I've been thinking a lot about it. I confessed to being of two uncomfortable minds when the Franken allegations came out. This article helped me feel much more comfortable towards one side of the issue. The argument the author seems to be making is "The ends, justify the means". At least that's how I read it.

She could not be more wrong. Franken has to go. Any person in a position of power with credible allegations of such behavior against them, has to go. This is how the modern GOP got to be the modern GOP. A win is a win, no matter how dirty, no matter how corrupt, any short term gain trumps (no pun intended) long term goals. It's not just enough to win, but the other side must also lose as badly as possible. This can be seen in Roy Moore. This can be seen in Paul Ryan already taking about cuts to the social safety net and the stupid Tax Bill hasn't even passed yet, which why they need Roy Moore in the first place. "Fuck you, poors!"

I lambasted syadasti for frothing over that WWII photo. That we were supposed to be "outraged" over something that happened almost 70 years ago, given the context of the time, was silly. But this is today. Now. We should be outraged that a guy who is clearly a fucking deviant is running for anything except from the cops. While there is maybe an argument to be made about degrees of behavior with Franken, clearly there is not with Conyers, or Farenthold or any of the half dozen or more other creeps, and I just don't think that's a road anyone who wants to claim the moral high ground should go down. An argument that Democrats, or the left, should be taking lessons from the GOP because they are "winning" makes me nauseous. If the Democrats cannot win against a pedophile, if the Democrats are too weak or unwilling to make that argument, to call a pedophile a pedophile and drive that point home until a google for "Roy Moore" directs to "pedophile" and they still can't win that race, then they fucking deserve to lose. If this country is so morally rudderless then I despair. A goodly portion of this country already thinks Democrats are wavering, feckless, pussies. It doesn't make any goddamn sense to remove any doubt. Fight a clean fight. Stand on principals. Make a better argument and send a better message. You cannot make a deal with the Devil, and not lose your soul.
 
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Adventurous

Adventurous

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Mar 19, 2014
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Pesqueeb said:
I read that article when you first posted it, and I've been thinking a lot about it. I confessed to being of two uncomfortable minds when the Franken allegations came out. This article helped me feel much more comfortable towards one side of the issue. The argument the author seems to be making is "The ends, justify the means". At least that's how I read it.

She could not be more wrong. Franken has to go. Any person in a position of power with credible allegations of such behavior against them, has to go. This is how the modern GOP got to be the modern GOP. A win is a win, no matter how dirty, no matter how corrupt, any short term gain trumps (no pun intended) long term goals. It's not just enough to win, but the other side must also lose as badly as possible. This can be seen in Roy Moore. This can be seen in Paul Ryan already taking about cuts to the social safety net and the stupid Tax Bill hasn't even passed yet, which why they need Roy Moore in the first place. "Fuck you, poors!"

I lambasted syadasti for frothing over that WWII photo. That we were supposed to be "outraged" over something that happened almost 70 years ago, given the context of the time, was silly. But this is today. Now. We should be outraged that a guy who is clearly a fucking deviant is running for anything except from the cops. While there is maybe an argument to be made about degrees of behavior with Franken, clearly there is not with Conyers, or Farenthold or any of the half dozen or more other creeps, and I just don't think that's a road anyone who wants to claim the moral high ground should go down. An argument that Democrats, or the left, should be taking lessons from the GOP because they are "winning" makes me nauseous. If the Democrats cannot win against a pedophile, if the Democrats are too weak or unwilling to make that argument, to call a pedophile a pedophile and drive that point home until a google for "Roy Moore" directs to "pedophile" and they still can't win that race, then they fucking deserve to lose. If this country is so morally rudderless then I despair. A goodly portion of this country already thinks Democrats are wavering, feckless, pussies. It doesn't make any goddamn sense to remove any doubt. Fight a clean fight. Stand on principals. Make a better argument and send a better message. You cannot make a deal with the Devil, and not lose your soul.
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Don't get me wrong, I can't possibly make a cogent argument about why the Democratic party shouldn't eschew Franken or Conyers. They should, I truly believe that, but that wasn't what resonated with me.

What you touched on at the end of your response is the conundrum that her article, to me, brought to the forefront; that the GOP will think Democrats are wavering, feckless, holier than thou pussies regardless of what they do because they purged a few bad apples from their ranks and think it should be rewarded with accolades. That the Republican war machine has created an environment in which you can condemn sexual predators in the other party and celebrate their downfall, yet embrace those sexual predators in your own party as "winners", "killers", or a necessary evil to notch "wins". That our political system has drifted to such extremes that the notion a party has to even consider the strategical implications before castigating (nevermind ignore for political benefit) such behavior.

But you are right and I do disagree with the author on that point, that the Democrats shouldn't try to fight fire with fire, we all know they don't have the skills or experience to hang playing that game. Go down that road and I'm afraid the Trump presidency would be for Democrats what the Obama years were for Republicans. I can only hopey the Trump presidency will an opportunity for self-reflection and re-focus on a unified message so that when this bout of crazy has passed, the thought of losing to a prolific and unapologetic sexual predator is a ludicrous proposition.
 
jonKranked

jonKranked

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Nov 10, 2005
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Adventurous said:
But you are right and I do disagree with the author on that point, that the Democrats shouldn't try to fight fire with fire, we all know they don't have the skills or experience to hang playing that game. Go down that road and I'm afraid the Trump presidency would be for Democrats what the Obama years were for Republicans.
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never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level then beat you with experience.
 
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