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If the students can’t pay back, it should fall on the schools, they should be legally required to pay it back. Otherwise, their screening and education services obviously aren’t effective enough if the person can’t pay it back.

The idea that you actually know something about anything at 17 when you “sign up” is just mind boggling. Even when they say they know…they really don’t know. You just can’t at that age.
Although much of "education" provided by colleges and universities is useless, I think you're off the mark.

For this particular issue, banks should pay because they have charged inordinate interest. Corporations should pay because they provide little of service, charge outrageous fees, and have moved virtually all jobs offshore.
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
all joking aside, i remain unconvinced that student loan debt (and modern debt in general) isn't tantamount to modern indentured servitude.
Like you said.....kinda the point.

I got into a few hoity toity private schools but couldn't put the money together. Meanwhile dipshit kushnerbot goes to harvard because daddy bought a building. If I'd gone to one of those schools I would be in debt probably.

But that's the system: The fancybois keep it in the club. And anytime someone tries to have a serious conversation about this, you get the kinda shit sandwhich just posted about bUt tHe eCoNoMy. It's just banks making more money off the commoners. And they're very good at putting out talking points about how it's freeloading students or some stupid shit. It's just another predatory lending system that we don't really need. It has downstream consequences. We don't live in a meritocracy, no matter how many times people scream about hard work, responsibility, bootstraps or whatever BS.
 
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Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
20,200
10,729
AK
Although much of "education" provided by colleges and universities is useless, I think you're off the mark.

For this particular issue, banks should pay because they have charged inordinate interest. Corporations should pay because they provide little of service, charge outrageous fees, and have moved virtually all jobs offshore.
Well if the education and job placement was all it’s cracked up to be, paying back would be quick and easy…
 

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
20,200
10,729
AK
Like you said.....kinda the point.

I got into a few hoity toity private schools but couldn't put the money together. Meanwhile dipshit kushnerbot goes to harvard because daddy bought a building. If I'd gone to one of those schools I would be in debt probably.

But that's the system: The fancybois keep it in the club. And anytime someone tries to have a serious conversation about this, you get the kinda shit sandwhich just posted about bUt tHe eCoNoMy. It's just banks making more money off the commoners. And they're very good at putting out talking points about how it's freeloading students or some stupid shit. It's just another predatory lending system that we don't really need. It has downstream consequences. We don't live in a meritocracy, no matter how many times people scream about hard work, responsibility, bootstraps or whatever BS.
You forgot to use “rich peoples yachts” instead of “the economy”. Rookie mistake.
 

Sandwich

Pig my fish!
Staff member
May 23, 2002
21,867
7,110
borcester rhymes
Banks and corporations should be made to pay for it.
That kind of sounds like systematic reform, and we can't have that (according to kidwoo). Only repayment will do!

For the record, I believe in reforming the system so that it works correctly (or better). I do not believe in repaying people who made poor choices and find themselves deep in debt. I'm sorry but saying "just wipe away the debt" is stupid and I haven't heard an argument that will convince me otherwise, including this thread. Biden could keep us out of WW3, eliminate COVID himself and a whole bunch of other shit, but rose twitter keeps whining about student loans.
 

jonKranked

Detective Dookie
Nov 10, 2005
88,934
27,122
media blackout
That kind of sounds like systematic reform, and we can't have that (according to kidwoo). Only repayment will do!

For the record, I believe in reforming the system so that it works correctly (or better). I do not believe in repaying people who made poor choices and find themselves deep in debt. I'm sorry but saying "just wipe away the debt" is stupid and I haven't heard an argument that will convince me otherwise, including this thread. Biden could keep us out of WW3, eliminate COVID himself and a whole bunch of other shit, but rose twitter keeps whining about student loans.
but then where will the infinite profits come from
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
That kind of sounds like systematic reform, and we can't have that (according to kidwoo). Only repayment will do!
Jesus christ, you really haven't looked into this at all have you?

Again.....claiming things I never said so you can argue against them.

College funding and removing predatory interest rates on student loans has always been a part of what's been proposed. Quit making shit up based on your own assumptions. No one is that stupid. No one outside if brain is that stupid.

The loan forgiveness part is just the immediate surface level first step.
 
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Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
14,765
2,743
Pōneke
Yes, the truly insane thing is that education, the most important thing for everyone to have, and that contributes to every aspect of a successful society, costs money in the first place.
 

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
20,200
10,729
AK
That kind of sounds like systematic reform, and we can't have that (according to kidwoo). Only repayment will do!

For the record, I believe in reforming the system so that it works correctly (or better). I do not believe in repaying people who made poor choices and find themselves deep in debt. I'm sorry but saying "just wipe away the debt" is stupid and I haven't heard an argument that will convince me otherwise, including this thread. Biden could keep us out of WW3, eliminate COVID himself and a whole bunch of other shit, but rose twitter keeps whining about student loans.
What the **** does a 17 year old know, and more importantly, understand, about this kind of debt?
 

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
56,055
22,082
Sleazattle
What the **** does a 17 year old know, and more importantly, understand, about this kind of debt?

It isn't a difficult concept. I knew how much debt I was going to have going into college and how it related to the average income for my major. Every school I got accepted to pretty much laid it all out for me in the financial aid package.

IIRC compound interest and how loans work was taught in 9th grade math class.
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
It isn't a difficult concept. I knew how much debt I was going to have going into college and how it related to the average income for my major. I am pretty sure every school I got accepted to pretty much laid it all out for me in the financial aid package.
I half agree just because #metoo but I also had resources that not everyone has access to. IE: college guidance and schools that weren't bottom tier or community college first kinda thing.

And I'd have gone to cornell or penn if money weren't an issue.

Now look at me, all stupid n' shit! Thanks obama!
 

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
56,055
22,082
Sleazattle
I half agree just because #metoo but I also had resources that not everyone has access to. IE: college guidance and schools that weren't bottom tier or community college first kinda thing.

And I'd have gone to cornell or penn if money weren't an issue.

Now look at me, all stupid n' shit! Thanks obama!
My parents never went to college so I didn't really have any guidance. In fact I got accepted to Cornell with a rather nice scholarship but chose not to go because because it would have cost me $700 more a year to attend than my final choice. That was probably a really dumb decision but looking back I think I would have hated being surrounded by a bunch of Ivy League dick heads.
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
My parents never went to college so I didn't really have any guidance. In fact I got accepted to Cornell with a rather nice scholarship but chose not to go because because it would have cost me $700 more a year to attend than my final choice. That was probably a really dumb decision but looking back I think I would have hated being surrounded by a bunch of Ivy League dick heads.
I didn't get offered jackshit at cornell. I was deferred admission even. :rofl:

Funny to think we may have crossed paths there in a different universe.

There was a really down to earth guy in my chemE grad program at UF who came from cornell. He fucking hated that place for the exact same reason. In the end I'm kinda glad too now that I've had to interact and work with some of that 'scene'.

I just had some good guidance counselors, good AP teachers and SAT prep shit at my school. People who told me what questions to ask of colleges. I know for a fact not everyone has that. I'm a family first too so all I get from home is 'that damn librul skool made you all fucked up boy! :rofl: '
 

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
56,055
22,082
Sleazattle
I didn't get offered jackshit at cornell. I was deferred admission even. :rofl:

Funny to think we may have crossed paths there in a different universe.

There was a really down to earth guy in my chemE grad program at UF who came from cornell. He fucking hated that place for the exact same reason. In the end I'm kinda glad too now that I've had to interact and work with some of that 'scene'.

I just had some good guidance counselors, good AP teachers and SAT prep shit at my school. People who told me what questions to ask of colleges. I know for a fact not everyone has that. I'm a family first too so all I get from home is 'that damn librul skool made you all fucked up boy! :rofl: '
I was in-state and Cornell loved my high school. Something like 20 people from my graduating class went to Cornell. Also one of the reasons I didn't go there. I hated all 20 of those fuckers.
 

Sandwich

Pig my fish!
Staff member
May 23, 2002
21,867
7,110
borcester rhymes
Jesus christ, you really haven't looked into this at all have you?

Again.....claiming things I never said so you can argue against them.

College funding and removing predatory interest rates on student loans has always been a part of what's been proposed. Quit making shit up based on your own assumptions. No one is that stupid. No one outside if brain is that stupid.

The loan forgiveness part is just the immediate surface level first step.
maybe we should both stop with the strawman arguments.
dude don't make fun of art school!
 

eric strt6

Resident Curmudgeon
Sep 8, 2001
24,443
15,224
directly above the center of the earth
I was on my own for college. I figured I had two choices. Go into major debt and try and graduate in 4-5 years or work 40 hours a week and take 1 or two classes a semester and take 10-12 years to finish. I chose the latter and came out with no student debt, lots of knowledge , Of curse I ended u going into High Tech Sales instead of Biology (better money). I did learn how to work hard , have fun, and deal with bullshit.
 

Adventurous

Starshine Bro
Mar 19, 2014
10,868
9,909
Crawlorado
Although much of "education" provided by colleges and universities is useless, I think you're off the mark.

For this particular issue, banks should pay because they have charged inordinate interest. Corporations should pay because they provide little of service, charge outrageous fees, and have moved virtually all jobs offshore.
Corporations should pay, because they are the ones who benefit. They've spent decades shifting the burden of education and job related training onto the individual, then have the gall to complain that they can't find qualified workers. I dunno, maybe quit making entry level jobs require Master's degrees for the privilege of earning $15/hr? Create a system where people are beholden to the job you've graciously bestowed upon them, to pay back the money you loaned them, only to turn your back and hire a bunch of H1Bs anyway all for a $20K annual bonus. Winning!

Amazing that it's been proven time and time again the societal benefits of an educated populace, yet "we" as a whole can't get our heads out of our asses and realize that this fucked up system is holding almost everyone back.
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
maybe we should both stop with the strawman arguments.
don't "both sides" me bro! :rofl:


Everything I mentioned were concrete, tangible administrative actions, policies, and plans that biden and his campaign were handed, they promised some follow through on, campaigned on, and then reneged, or when the chance came to act on, did the opposite.

I'm not making things up to argue them. These happened. And it's why a large portion of the small margin of victory for biden in 2020 won't be voting or campaigning for him again. He's going to lose because of his specific actions and broken promises to the people that organized for his campaign.
 
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Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
56,055
22,082
Sleazattle
Corporations should pay, because they are the ones who benefit. They've spent decades shifting the burden of education and job related training onto the individual, then have the gall to complain that they can't find qualified workers. I dunno, maybe quit making entry level jobs require Master's degrees for the privilege of earning $15/hr? Create a system where people are beholden to the job you've graciously bestowed upon them, to pay back the money you loaned them, only to turn your back and hire a bunch of H1Bs anyway all for a $20K annual bonus. Winning!

Amazing that it's been proven time and time again the societal benefits of an educated populace, yet "we" as a whole can't get our heads out of our asses and realize that this fucked up system is holding almost everyone back.

In part because a significant portion of the power structure in the country is based on having an electorate of idiots.

Case in point
 
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Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
20,200
10,729
AK
It isn't a difficult concept. I knew how much debt I was going to have going into college and how it related to the average income for my major. Every school I got accepted to pretty much laid it all out for me in the financial aid package.

IIRC compound interest and how loans work was taught in 9th grade math class.
I disagree, the understanding at 30 or 40 years old is radically different. The male brain isn’t even fully developed until about 26. That’s science. There are all sorts of topics like this. You don’t have enough context and bandwidth at 17 to really understand. If you claim this just because things turned out well, that’s just confirmation bias. I freely admit I didn’t understand all kinds of **** that I thought I did.
 

jonKranked

Detective Dookie
Nov 10, 2005
88,934
27,122
media blackout
I disagree, the understanding at 30 or 40 years old is radically different. The male brain isn’t even fully developed until about 26. That’s science. There are all sorts of topics like this. You don’t have enough context and bandwidth at 17 to really understand. If you claim this just because things turned out well, that’s just confirmation bias. I freely admit I didn’t understand all kinds of **** that I thought I did.
surfs up serf
 

Adventurous

Starshine Bro
Mar 19, 2014
10,868
9,909
Crawlorado
In part because a significant portion of the power structure in the country is based on having an electorate of idiots.

Case in point
Almost like a certain entity within our government knows this and needs a constant supply of poor, young, able bodied men to promise just a few years of their time in exchange for the opportunity to get that elusive life-changing education.

Imagine what would happen if we removed that barrier and just gave that out for free.
 

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
56,055
22,082
Sleazattle
I disagree, the understanding at 30 or 40 years old is radically different. The male brain isn’t even fully developed until about 26. That’s science. There are all sorts of topics like this. You don’t have enough context and bandwidth at 17 to really understand. If you claim this just because things turned out well, that’s just confirmation bias. I freely admit I didn’t understand all kinds of **** that I thought I did.

One is expected to understand much more complex concepts than student loans on day one of college. Perhaps if those aren't things people can understand they shouldn't be going to college. Maybe there should be an education finance section in the SATs.
 
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Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
56,055
22,082
Sleazattle
Almost like a certain entity within our government knows this and needs a constant supply of poor, young, able bodied men to promise just a few years of their time in exchange for the opportunity to get that elusive life-changing education.

Imagine what would happen if we removed that barrier and just gave that out for free.
Honestly the GI bill is possibly the most equitable program the government offers. A lot of people could use 4 years of discipline and work ethic before going to college, or to decide what they really want to do with themselves. That is probably a bigger problem than understanding what debt is. All the people I know who got into major debt problems were the ones who once no longer under parental control turned college into a really expensive party and either required several extra years to graduate or walked away with a bunch of debt and no degree.

Not arguing that higher education shouldn't me made more accessible to everyone. The US also needs better secondary education for skilled trades. Sadly what is currently offered in that arena is offered by "for profit" schools which can be predatory.
 
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kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
I definitely understood the concept of debt at 17/18, but most certainly not some of the absolute parasitic interest practices on that debt. I learned that after I became unwillingly part of a citibank class action lawsuit and actual credit card debt I thought I paid off

but I guess most kids that age are all....




and you know it's true because most of them aren't much different at 40
 

Brian HCM#1

Don’t feed the troll
Sep 7, 2001
32,238
381
Bay Area, California
In part because a significant portion of the power structure in the country is based on having an electorate of idiots.

Case in point
Why point at me? Your guy won the election. Isn't this the Trump presidency thread? You guys are still bitching & moaning about it, its kinda pathetic. He's gone, lost the election get over it & move on, I have. You should be very satisfied with the current results with who you voted for. Yep, college dropout, uneducated, whatever you want to call it however I've done okay in life & can't complain.
 

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
20,200
10,729
AK
Honestly the GI bill is possibly the most equitable program the government offers. A lot of people could use 4 years of discipline and work ethic before going to college, or to decide what they really want to do with themselves. That is probably a bigger problem than understanding what debt is. All the people I know who got into major debt problems were the ones who once no longer under parental control turned college into a really expensive party and either required several extra years to graduate or walked away with a bunch of debt and no degree.

Not arguing that higher education shouldn't me made more accessible to everyone. The US also needs better secondary education for skilled trades. Sadly what is currently offered in that arena is offered by "for profit" schools which can be predatory.
Let’s not forget, the debt and interest is only one facet of it. The school painting an overly rosy picture of employment prospects and salaries in conjunction with unrealistic timelines is also a huge part of it. It wouldn’t be as big a problem if you went to earning 150K/year right off the batt, but the days of that being medical and lawyer degree territory are long gone. This is the reality for many people and programs and the kids just don’t know any better (at the time). Not that they should be able to fund degrees on ridiculous stuff, but those are they exception. The mainstream is out of control.
 

6thElement

Schrodinger's Immigrant
Jul 29, 2008
17,285
14,758
I was in one of those "socialist" countries and paid tuition wasn't even a thing. I even got government grants based on my parents income to help with living costs. The government backed student loans went into a high interest account each year. While I lived off my free bank overdraft, paying it off by working during holidays. 3rd of 4 years for my degree was spent working in industry earning good money and gaining far more knowledge than the actual course. Then the company I worked for gave me a bursary for my final year back. Graduated well in the black.

I feel so repressed from that hell of what used to be a no bootstrap system.
 
Encouraged by mother to save money.
Paper route.
Unloading fertilizer from semi.
One semester at Knox.
Repairing lawnmowers.
Cabinet maker.
Truck driver.
Ford assembly line worker.
Wire stranding machine operator.
Welder.
Wire stranding machine operator.
Army, emerging with better than $10K in savings in 1969.
Electromechanical technician.
Looked at various schools, including Harvard.
Five years at Northeastern, working 20 hours a week while in school, 40 when not.
BSEE with high honors.
The rest of my silly life, still saving...
 

Sandwich

Pig my fish!
Staff member
May 23, 2002
21,867
7,110
borcester rhymes
don't "both sides" me bro! :rofl:


Everything I mentioned were concrete, tangible administrative actions, policies, and plans that biden and his campaign were handed, they promised some follow through on, campaigned on, and then reneged, or when the chance came to act on, did the opposite.

I'm not making things up to argue them. These happened. And it's why a large portion of the small margin of victory for biden in 2020 won't be voting or campaigning for him again. He's going to lose because of his specific actions and broken promises to the people that organized for his campaign.
OK, so my comment was primarily directed at the "I got mine bro" comment, but upon re-reading it I see that it was directed toward all americans. Still, I tried to make a joking comment that picking a career based on passion then finding that it isn't a fruitful career (ie art history) and not being able to pay back your loans, and that was spun to be that I see no value in art history or whatever. I had student loans, so did most of my peers. I paid them back. I did it without doing anything criminal. It took a long time and probably prevented me from buying a home for some time. I had an average amount of debt that was neither excessive nor particularly low. I made what I would call "bad" choices in that, in reflection, I wish I had chosen a state school with lower tuition so I'd have no student loans. I'd like to see the next generation have an easier time.

Being angry at a politician for promising one thing and not delivering may be the most fruitless exercise possible. All politicians lie. You think Bernie would have been able to do virtually anything that he promised? No, it doesn't work like that. Trump lied, Obama lied, Bush lied, they all lie. I would rather see Biden focus on the most critical things (preventing WW3, COVID) than worry about "muh student loans".

Also, I have not heard any nuanced point on "muh student loans" yet. Everything is "Student loan forgiveness" and not "Comprehensive student loan industry reform". I believe in the latter, but the former reeks of greed and "me" not "us". If there is a nuanced, comprehensive plan out there for reform, I'd love to hear it and I'd be happy to change my point of view, but until then it's just bernie bots wanting a free ride.
 
OK, so my comment was primarily directed at the "I got mine bro" comment, but upon re-reading it I see that it was directed toward all americans. Still, I tried to make a joking comment that picking a career based on passion then finding that it isn't a fruitful career (ie art history) and not being able to pay back your loans, and that was spun to be that I see no value in art history or whatever. I had student loans, so did most of my peers. I paid them back. I did it without doing anything criminal. It took a long time and probably prevented me from buying a home for some time. I had an average amount of debt that was neither excessive nor particularly low. I made what I would call "bad" choices in that, in reflection, I wish I had chosen a state school with lower tuition so I'd have no student loans. I'd like to see the next generation have an easier time.

Being angry at a politician for promising one thing and not delivering may be the most fruitless exercise possible. All politicians lie. You think Bernie would have been able to do virtually anything that he promised? No, it doesn't work like that. Trump lied, Obama lied, Bush lied, they all lie. I would rather see Biden focus on the most critical things (preventing WW3, COVID) than worry about "muh student loans".

Also, I have not heard any nuanced point on "muh student loans" yet. Everything is "Student loan forgiveness" and not "Comprehensive student loan industry reform". I believe in the latter, but the former reeks of greed and "me" not "us". If there is a nuanced, comprehensive plan out there for reform, I'd love to hear it and I'd be happy to change my point of view, but until then it's just bernie bots wanting a free ride.
I agree that art history and its ilk ought to go down the hopper.

I don't agree with your "bernie bots wanting a free ride" characterization. Them what used to be "working class", the people I worked with at Ford, the machinists at Draper Laboratories, the steel workers, and many more, no longer have employment opportunity. Historically as a society, we have done this to women, to black people, to anyone we could label as an immigrant... Now we (society at large, but particularly big institutions like colleges, banks, hospitals, and coroporations) do it to everyone who ain't rich already.
 

Sandwich

Pig my fish!
Staff member
May 23, 2002
21,867
7,110
borcester rhymes
I agree that art history and its ilk ought to go down the hopper.

I don't agree with your "bernie bots wanting a free ride" characterization. Them what used to be "working class", the people I worked with at Ford, the machinists at Draper Laboratories, the steel workers, and many more, no longer have employment opportunity. Historically as a society, we have done this to women, to black people, to anyone we could label as an immigrant... Now we (society at large, but particularly big institutions like colleges, banks, hospitals, and coroporations) do it to everyone who ain't rich already.
I didn't say anything about the middle class, nor hard working blue collar workers. I most specifically am talking about people who went to school for "Gender and Emoji use" or some such nonsense. Then again, if those people you are talking about went to harvard without a dime of financial aid and come out wondering why they are deep in debt on a machinist's salary, then yes, those are included.
 

Brian HCM#1

Don’t feed the troll
Sep 7, 2001
32,238
381
Bay Area, California
I agree that art history and its ilk ought to go down the hopper.

I don't agree with your "bernie bots wanting a free ride" characterization. Them what used to be "working class", the people I worked with at Ford, the machinists at Draper Laboratories, the steel workers, and many more, no longer have employment opportunity. Historically as a society, we have done this to women, to black people, to anyone we could label as an immigrant... Now we (society at large, but particularly big institutions like colleges, banks, hospitals, and coroporations) do it to everyone who ain't rich already.
Unfortunately a lot of those jobs are gone, shipped overseas. We've been on that downward spiral for the last 30+ years, very sad. Hourly wages/Salaries have been stagnant for years. With that being said, the trades can still provide a great comfortable lifestyle. Today it seems like everyone thinks the only way to succeed in life is by having a degree, that's far from the truth. Most every homeowner will need to hire a plumber, electrician, roofer, HVAC, etc. contractor at one point in time. I still keep my general & plumbing licenses active for those occasional side jobs, I'll bill out at $150-$200 an hour depending on the difficulty of the job. Money is there to be made, just hurts a lot more 30 years later.