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Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
20,200
10,728
AK
Unfortunately a lot of those jobs are gone, shipped overseas. We've been on that downward spiral for the last 30+ years, very sad. Hourly wages/Salaries have been stagnant for years. With that being said, the trades can still provide a great comfortable lifestyle. Today it seems like everyone thinks the only way to succeed in life is by having a degree, that's far from the truth. Most every homeowner will need to hire a plumber, electrician, roofer, HVAC, etc. contractor at one point in time. I still keep my general & plumbing licenses active for those occasional side jobs, I'll bill out at $150-$200 an hour depending on the difficulty of the job. Money is there to be made, just hurts a lot more 30 years later.
The trades can also wreck your body with little recourse. A big part of my safety education was centered on repetitive work injuries and MSDs. Exposure to toxins+stuff that just wrecks your body over time. Sure, some do well, but these tend to be fairly destructive in this regard, you are relying largely on your body to make the $$$, when it stops working well your choices get limited real fast.
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
Being angry at a politician for promising one thing and not delivering may be the most fruitless exercise possible. All politicians lie. You think Bernie would have been able to do virtually anything that he promised? No, it doesn't work like that.
Pat me on the head and explain life.

The ONLY reason this came up is because I was mentioning specific reasons why biden was going to lose. There's a very particular block of people who motivated like hell, campaigned like hell, who don't usually do that sort of thing. They did so because some very specific promises were made. Not in a speech, not on the teevee, to the organizers themselves (stacy abrahams, cory bush n' crew if you need a recognizable name)

And again, I'm not talking about unicorn magic, these are things he absolutely had control over, and did the opposite when the time came just because he wants to get along with a party that paints him as pedophile. They were decisions he had control over, an outcome he had control over, and he did the opposite.

That block, that had a very profound influence on the election will not be doing this again and whichever fascist runs against him has a higher chance of winning now. That's the ONLY reason this conversation started. Not because anyone here has some bright eyed naivete about how politicians work. You're not some genius because you suspect them. Some VERY specific deals were made that got thrown in the toilet. No one has any delusions about joe fucking biden. These were opportunities available to him that he blew. Not ignored, not half-assed, just straight up went the opposite direction.

I already told you I have no student loan debt, yet I'm the one that brought it up in this particular case. Greed? For something that doesn't even apply to me?

You're so programmed to think no free lunches for anyone, you dismiss it as greed. Balloon clauses in loans are then what exactly? Most of these plans focus on loans that have already had the premium paid off. There's greed involved but I think you're dropping it on the wrong side of the equation.
 
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Sandwich

Pig my fish!
Staff member
May 23, 2002
21,867
7,110
borcester rhymes
Did I say women's studies? Where did I say women's studies? You can go into a STEM field and poorly time it or choose the wrong one and end up dead in the water just like anything else. I have a friend who got her BS in Biology but went into fishery management. She can't find a job. Meanwhile generic biotech folk literally have people competing for them. This is all local to Boston.
 

Pesqueeb

bicycle in airplane hangar
Feb 2, 2007
41,902
19,227
Riding the baggage carousel.
Did I say women's studies? Where did I say women's studies?
You did not. You made equally specious arguments about "Art History" and "other such nonsense". The first of which, is actually addressed in that article, had you read past the headline.

My point being, is exactly that you didn't say. You made some boilerplate BS arguments about fields of study that don't make sense to you, ergo they are apparently worthless. How will we know which fields of study may be forgotten forever by mankind if you don't tell us, and whose college debt deserves to be crippling for a lifetime because it is nonsense? Who will be the one who decides these things, for the sake of the economy?
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
How will we know which fields of study may be forgotten forever by mankind if you don't tell us, and whose college debt deserves to be crippling for a lifetime because it is nonsense? Who will be the one who decides these things, for the sake of the economy?
luminaries like joe rogan

I need rich people to define the freeloaders for me so I can make memes that miss important points to send the family

that way we can all bag on the same people at thanksgiving
 

Sandwich

Pig my fish!
Staff member
May 23, 2002
21,867
7,110
borcester rhymes
If she wants to run for her life from fires every year I can get her placement out here.

Alaska is the holy land for that kind of work just fyi. If she's mobile.
She's looking specifically at zebrafish colony management. Pretty fucking specific. Zebrafish are typically used in genetics research from my understanding. I appreciate the offer and do hope that she finds work soon.

You did not. You made equally specious arguments about "Art History" and "other such nonsense". The first of which, is actually addressed in that article, had you read past the headline.

My point being, is exactly that you didn't say. You made some boilerplate BS arguments about fields of study that don't make sense to you, ergo they are apparently worthless. How will we know which fields of study may be forgotten forever by mankind if you don't tell us, and whose college debt deserves to be crippling for a lifetime because it is nonsense? Who will be the one who decides these things, for the sake of the economy?
Ah, ya got me, I didn't have time to read the article so I skimmed it. Opinion pieces from WAPO roughly equate to fox news opinon pieces in my book and I don't want anything to do with either of them.

I feel like you guys are attacking me rather than my opinions, so I'm unsubbing. I'll see you in 2023 for more of the same!
 

SkaredShtles

Michael Bolton
Sep 21, 2003
67,936
14,218
In a van.... down by the river
I find it sort of amusing (sad) that we apparently decided somewhere in the mid-1800's that a K-12 education was important enough to provide for "free" (and by 1930 apparently every state was providing it *and* making it compulsory), but the thought of K-16 education makes a certain segment of society kinda lose their gourd.

With the advancement of science/technology/etc., K-12 isn't sufficient any more. We should provide K-16 education for the entire population.
 

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
20,200
10,728
AK
I find it sort of amusing (sad) that we apparently decided somewhere in the mid-1800's that a K-12 education was important enough to provide for "free" (and by 1930 apparently every state was providing it *and* making it compulsory), but the thought of K-16 education makes a certain segment of society kinda lose their gourd.

With the advancement of science/technology/etc., K-12 isn't sufficient any more. We should provide K-16 education for the entire population.
But what about Sallie Mae! How will she make monies!!??
 

Adventurous

Starshine Bro
Mar 19, 2014
10,868
9,909
Crawlorado
I find it sort of amusing (sad) that we apparently decided somewhere in the mid-1800's that a K-12 education was important enough to provide for "free" (and by 1930 apparently every state was providing it *and* making it compulsory), but the thought of K-16 education makes a certain segment of society kinda lose their gourd.

With the advancement of science/technology/etc., K-12 isn't sufficient any more. We should provide K-16 education for the entire population.
Shit, we need K-Death education. Way too many people finish school and think they are done learning. Technology evolves, ideas are refined...I'd happily continue my formal education if it wasnt financially detrimental.
 

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
20,200
10,728
AK
btw, i worked 2 part time jobs and got a scholarship and a fellowship in grad school so as to not have debt.
This generally worked for me in graduate school, but not undergraduate. There was no effective way to work at the same time.

And that’s kinda the point. Sometimes it works…sometimes it doesn’t. Professors don’t care that you are working, they still want you to preform like a full time student. Even when you are less than full time it still can be unmanageable due to the variance in both schools and work. The more you try to work, the more it takes away from being able to do school. For many, it’s unsustainable. Too many catch 22s with the entire thing.
 
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Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
20,200
10,728
AK
And to support myself in graduate school, I was working 6 days a week in excess of 12hrs/day.

My graduate school was comped due to being an employee, so that was just to pay rent, taxes (on school), books, eat, etc.
 

Nick

My name is Nick
Sep 21, 2001
24,937
16,546
where the trails are
First job at 12 selling programs at the horse racing track, worked retail through HS. Took a machinist job to get my apprenticeship, left that due to constant cutting of hands while trying to keep my band playing. Moved into networking/tech, then manufacturing tech/automation, then renewable energy. I have my dream job now, more or less, and a leadership position in an engineering company. All without being able to count or spell very well.

Half the people in my family eared a living cutting steel (machinists, mold makers, gear cutters, etc.) and I'm a big supporter of kids looking at trades vs college.
 
And to support myself in graduate school, I was working 6 days a week in excess of 12hrs/day.

My graduate school was comped due to being an employee, so that was just to pay rent, taxes (on school), books, eat, etc.
I had the GI bill and a job with decent pay at the MIT Instrumantation/Draper laboratories. Had to get the union there to bang on the labs so they didn't cut my pay since I had become a student...
 

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
20,200
10,728
AK
I had the GI bill and a job with decent pay at the MIT Instrumantation/Draper laboratories. Had to get the union there to bang on the labs so they didn't cut my pay since I had become a student...
i had the GI bill

It didn’t cover much when I was using it. Later vets got crazy 100% deals, but when I was in it was just a relatively small fixed amount/month. Still a good deal for what you put into it, but in no way sufficient to pay for school.

My idea with the GI bill is that for any vet that completes honorable tour, they should be able to go to any public institution for free. Public service, public education.
 
i had the GI bill

It didn’t cover much when I was using it. Later vets got crazy 100% deals, but when I was in it was just a relatively small fixed amount/month. Still a good deal for what you put into it, but in no way sufficient to pay for school.

My idea with the GI bill is that for any vet that completes honorable tour, they should be able to go to any public institution for free. Public service, public education.
It's not clear to me that military service is a public service.
 

Brian HCM#1

Don’t feed the troll
Sep 7, 2001
32,237
381
Bay Area, California
The trades can also wreck your body with little recourse. A big part of my safety education was centered on repetitive work injuries and MSDs. Exposure to toxins+stuff that just wrecks your body over time. Sure, some do well, but these tend to be fairly destructive in this regard, you are relying largely on your body to make the $$$, when it stops working well your choices get limited real fast.
You're 100% correct. My back is shot from setting 200+lb cast iron bathtubs by myself. That usually included me dragging them in from the garage to the bathrooms (I specialized in new construction custom homes). I have many friends still in the trades making a mint, rarely swing a hammer or pick up any tools. They just now drop off material to the crew and go out bidding new jobs. Then again, some are still on their own and beaten up from it 35+ years later. I jumped out of construction some time ago to pursue another profession doing inspections. I got my real estate license about 6 years ago and dabble with that on the side too. Just closed a deal last week to help supplement paying for both kids college funds. Once I retire from my current profession (hoping 4-5 more years), I'll do real estate full time.
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
that's the law and order candidate brain voted for

the guy who stiffs contractors who destroy their bodies dragging 200+lb coated gold bathtubs to new york penthouses....

He literally gets the work, fails to pay, and then threatens years of court to people who do work. And brain (a common worker of course) supported up to the very end.
 

6thElement

Schrodinger's Immigrant
Jul 29, 2008
17,284
14,757
Any lawyer dumb enough to voluntarily work for any entity related to mango moron at this point deserves not to get paid.
 

mandown

Poopdeck Repost
Jun 1, 2004
21,887
9,180
Transylvania 90210
The trades can also wreck your body with little recourse. A big part of my safety education was centered on repetitive work injuries and MSDs. Exposure to toxins+stuff that just wrecks your body over time. Sure, some do well, but these tend to be fairly destructive in this regard, you are relying largely on your body to make the $$$, when it stops working well your choices get limited real fast.
Kinda happy to be a desk jockey particularly after my early semi-retirement from physical activity. Sitting at a desk isn’t the healthiest thing either, and I’ve got the back/neck/shoulder pains to prove it. But every time I see a guy in boots swinging a hammer I think how fortunate I am with my career path.
 

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
56,055
22,082
Sleazattle
My first job out of school I was an engineer who also did a lot of physically difficult hands on work. I miss that kind of stuff but psoriatic arthritis has made my hands useless for day to day hard labor. I can still ride but I have had to adjust to having a very light grip on the bars. If I had relied on my hands to make a living I'd be a greeter at Walmart.
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
I can still ride but I have had to adjust to having a very light grip on the bars.
I've broken my back enough times that my arms go numb after about 50min of mountain biking.

My friend. Westy. I think it's time we talk about the magical lower body and leg focused sport of dirt bikes. You barely hold onto the damn things once you learn some technique. It's incredible.
 

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
56,055
22,082
Sleazattle
I've broken my back enough times that my arms go numb after about 50min of mountain biking.

My friend. Westy. I think it's time we talk about the magical lower body and leg focused sport of dirt bikes. You barely hold onto the damn things once you learn some technique. It's incredible.

I got another motorcycle after I couldn't ride (a bike) after hand surgery. Motos don't need you to weight the front end. But as soon as I could ride (a bike) again I lost interest and recently sold it. It wasn't a dirtbike, but a dirtbike isn't practical for me in my current situation. I would need a new vehicle to transport one and the closest trails are hours away.

Currently I can put in a 3.5 hour ride without hand problems short of the embarrassment of running ergon grips. But a dirtbike would be nice one day.
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
soon you will join us :triniti:

It sounds like you're in better shape handwise. I just had to come to terms with the fact that I could ride bikes with frequent breaks to shake out my arms and get the numbness to go away or I could stand on my feet all day on a dirtbike and get most of the same happys. But yeah, buying cars to deal with it sux.
 

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
56,055
22,082
Sleazattle
soon you will join us :triniti:

It sounds like you're in better shape handwise. I just had to come to terms with the fact that I could ride bikes with frequent breaks to shake out my arms and get the numbness to go away or I could stand on my feet all day on a dirtbike and get most of the same happys. But yeah, buying cars to deal with it sux.

Yeah my hands never bothered me during a week of riding in Utah but are killing me right now after moving 3 yards of dirt.
 

rideit

Bob the Builder
Aug 24, 2004
24,753
12,520
In the cleavage of the Tetons
^^^^This^^^^
i did a lifetime worth of damage in about 5 years, I was so compulsive and addicted, I would work on shit until 3:00 with lights sometimes. I think my elbows bore the brunt of it, for some reason.
 

boostindoubles

Nacho Libre
Mar 16, 2004
8,439
7,003
Yakistan
Screw this talk. I am trying to wrap my mind around sternoclavicular joint pain tonight. All day it's been aching. I was just trying to 180 bunny hop my dirt jumper in the garage and it makes my sternoclavicular joint ache like a mofo. I can't think of any impacts I've taken lately to irritate my collar bone. This is a new one for me.

In the damn Trump thread even. Fuck Donald Trump and fuck lingering and worsening pain. Ah shit... I see where this is headed.