[Udi]

I honestly don't think those tests are accurate at all, I think it's due to test factors not being normalized correctly - tricky things like lever actuation force input point, and more obvious things like just using the same pads. It's surprisingly difficult to conduct a completely objective and accurate test. I'm glad they try though, perhaps in future methods will improve.

For reference, I own the one brake that obliterates all these tests.

 

[johnbryanpeters]

I honestly don't think those tests are accurate at all, I think it's due to test factors not being normalized correctly - tricky things like lever actuation force input point, and more obvious things like just using the same pads. It's surprisingly difficult to conduct a completely objective and accurate test. I'm glad they try though, perhaps in future methods will improve.

For reference, I own the one brake that obliterates all these tests.

One brake to rule them all, one brake to find them,
One brake to bring them all and in the darkness bind them.

 

[PJivan]

I honestly don't think those tests are accurate at all, I think it's due to test factors not being normalized correctly - tricky things like lever actuation force input point, and more obvious things like just using the same pads. It's surprisingly difficult to conduct a completely objective and accurate test. I'm glad they try though, perhaps in future methods will improve.

For reference, I own the one brake that obliterates all these tests.

Oh yeah and there is probably variation from pieces (there are tolerance and therefore two brakes of the same brand and model can't be exactly the same), but they can't predict were you will place your finger on the lever, or how will you bedd your pads and so on.

I think an accurate test could be performed if you hire the expertise and with some kind of six sigma project management approach.
It would probably require tons of time and money but as you said this is a step in the right direction, it's a shame they did not made a video of the process, and more emphasis should be applied in explain the test methodology but I like this kind of stuff, even if it may not necessary translate in real word at least they are putting some effort beside meaningless pinkbike words such as "immense power" "incredible modulation" etc.

I for one don't understand why the Code RSC won this test based on the numbers alone, but I'm not surprised from the Cura since i tried them recently, far better than my Guide RS and I like them better than my old Zee, I think cura 4 piston may bee the shit! like the old formula/bassano grimeca AKA shimano xt 4 piston were back in the days.

 

[Flo33]

One brake to rule them all, one brake to find them,
One brake to bring them all and in the darkness bind them.

If only you can buy them.

 

[PJivan]

I've got E4s and V4s on my bikes now (actually just upgraded to V4 calipers from E4 on one bike). Not sure how the V4 shows more power but weaker stopping than the E4? I'll have to download and read the article and see what pads they used.

Results are inverted, it's a typo, hopefully their attention to details in the lab was better than their proofreading.

 

[slimshady]

One brake to rule them all, one brake to find them,
One brake to bring them all and in the darkness bind them.

Will @Udi end up writing a SilmaBrakerillion?

 

[Udi]

Peak force can be calculated with careful and consistent geometry measurement of all brakes.
Using a dyno of any kind just introduces a myriad of extra unnecessary variables plus a lot of opportunity for human error. With the spreadsheet, there is only one significant opportunity for error and that's in taking the measurements.

The frankenbrake spreadsheet is exactly for this purpose, so if anyone wants real answers, get your calipers out, and if any of the calcs or columns are wrong feel free to fix them.

So far only @troy and a couple of lurkers have contributed (appreciated!).
If people actually want factual answers, then this is the way you'll get them.

Personally I now have brakes I am completely happy with, so I have no real reason to continue my search.
Keep in mind there are many other factors aside from peak leverage/force that make for a good brake, but it's certainly a key factor.

 

[PJivan]

Peak force can be calculated with careful and consistent geometry measurement of all brakes.
Using a dyno of any kind just introduces a myriad of extra unnecessary variables plus a lot of opportunity for human error. With the spreadsheet, there is only really one opportunity for error and that's in measurement, but it's still much closer to reality.

The frankenbrake spreadsheet is exactly for this purpose, so if anyone wants real answers, get your calipers out, and if any of the calcs or columns are wrong feel free to fix them.

So far only @troy and a couple of lurkers have contributed (appreciated!).
If people actually want factual answers, then this is the way you'll get them.

Personally I now have brakes I am completely happy with, so I have no real reason to continue my search.
Keep in mind there are many other factors aside from peak leverage/force that make for a good brake, but it's certainly a key factor.

but peak theoretical force is just one variable...I could place my foot on the tyre and apply far more power than any disc on the market, not sure if that would work that well tho, so I'm not sure how a spreadsheet could help to get us closer to a real world scenario. for instance you can see that their result in terms of 30-15km/h and 40-0 offers some surprises.

 

[toodles]

but peak theoretical force is just one variable....

Nah brake industry newcomer "Stick-In-Spokes" smashed the dyno test and is clearly the real winner here...

Wish they could quantify and put a column in the spreadsheet for things like:
"number of times in a row the bite point was the same"
"number of beers consumed and swear words uttered whilst trying to bleed"
"number of emails required to get a response regarding spares"
"decibels emitted under wet braking"

 

[Udi]

but peak theoretical force is just one variable...I could place my foot on the tyre and apply far more power than any disc on the market, not sure if that would work that well tho, so I'm not sure how a spreadsheet could help to get us closer to a real world scenario. for instance you can see that their result in terms of 30-15km/h and 40-0 offers some surprises.

I'm not here to have these arguments.
I'm well aware of what the spreadsheet does and doesn't show, I'm also aware of what these dyno tests do show - and I can tell you with confidence that it's very little. Like I said, I own the brake that always wins these tests (yay, purchase justification), I have no reason to discredit the tests other than the fact that they have far too many inaccuracies to be useful.

If you wish to make purchases based on anything in that table then you have my best wishes.

 

[PJivan]

Nah brake industry newcomer "Stick-In-Spokes" smashed the dyno test and is clearly the real winner here...

Wish they could quantify and put a column in the spreadsheet for things like:
"number of times in a row the bite point was the same"
"number of beers consumed and swear words uttered whilst trying to bleed"
"number of emails required to get a response regarding spares"
"decibels emitted under wet braking"

Nothing can give you that data, say I buy a set of brake and I find myself with a piston stuck, does that mean that the brake is unreliable or that I'm unlucky? was it because of the amount of mud i went trough? How should I measure the mud? how frequently and how well done was my maintenance? were am I located for spares? and even if the sample is big enough to provide sufficient data you can still get one of the very few bad set produced. How can you expect a small sample of people to provide you with an universal truth when you are living your very own.

If you wish to make purchases based on anything in that table then you have my best wishes.

Absolutely not, just like I wouldn't make a purchase based on a geometry measurement, it does not take into consideration the flex of the lever and the calliper, cable dilatation maybe? dunno, one piston may be lazier and therefore apply less pressure on one side, bend the disc a little and have less contact surface, and also modulation contribute to stopping performance, if I'm afraid to bite hard immediately maybe i could loose the power advantage in that half second that i dose more carefully the power.

I didn't meant to offend the work put there and I don't dispute the data that produce, or the fact that can be interesting or indicative, but at the same time, I don't see why it should be better than this controlled test, what i think would be cool instead, is to compare that measurement with the one on the test and dig deeper were and if discrepancy are found to find the root cause.

 

[toodles]

Nothing can give you that data, say I buy a set of brake and I find myself with a piston stuck, does that mean that the brake is unreliable or that I'm unlucky?

Lol whoa man... chill. I was just saying there are heaps of other variables that make a good brake aside from stopping power. Else we'd all be on Saints.

But if like 2000 people buy a brake and the pistons stick... well then maybe, just maybe SRAM sucks.

 

[Udi]

maybe? dunno

This about sums it up.
No offence taken, but if you spent less time typing wild guesses and instead read through that thread in its entirety (many great contributions from the RM community on various aspects of braking), you might come out with a better understanding of the topic, and some concrete answers to the things you are clearly uncertain about.

 

[PJivan]

Lol whoa man... chill. I was just saying there are heaps of other variables that make a good brake aside from stopping power. Else we'd all be on Saints.

But if like 2000 people buy a brake and the pistons stick... well then maybe, just maybe SRAM sucks.

I'm but I'm also hearing you, and yeah I can see were you are coming from but if 1000 hope brake sets are sold an 10 people complain it's a 1% rateo, same for 1000 out of 100000 sram brake sold.

I'm not saying that sram are better than hope and how did they won that magazine test is beyond me to be fair, maybe they really are very good or maybe they just "pushed" the brand that support them the most, I was just saying that your is a perception based analysis and it could be deceptive, jumping on my original statement I think you can't pretend much from a reviewer in terms of reliability, best case scenario you get one single result from unknown variables, worst scenario he is lying.

To came up with solid data on MTBF or MTTR it's much harder than measure pure KPIs for obvious reasons(costs).

 

[TrumbullHucker]

So I had to have MTN Creek bleed my front after my asscheek met a rock on Asylum.

and then my Zees felt great : (

Probably will be a different story in a month, eh?
And I should learn how to bleed better, eh? smh

 

[Bike078]

@Udi and others, in your experience what are the "best" methods for bleeding shimano brakes (and are there videos)?

 

[LAP]

@Udi and others, in your experience what are the "best" methods for bleeding shimano brakes (and are there videos)?

I recently bled my XT M785 using the method shown in this video and got a surprisingly good result. You can see it here https://nsmb.com/articles/brake-bleeds-santa-cruz-syndicate/ Its pretty simple and not too messy if you put a bucket underneath and wear glove.

 

[Bike078]

I recently bled my XT M785 using the method shown in this video and got a surprisingly good result. You can see it here https://nsmb.com/articles/brake-bleeds-santa-cruz-syndicate/ Its pretty simple and not too messy if you put a bucket underneath and wear glove.

Thanks LAP. I'll check it out.

 

[Da Peach]

I have MEGABLED my xtr levers for about a week after a full fluid flush by the “marshy” method I saw posted on PB. (Kept funnel on overnight with lever pulled. Many times over)

Felt good for 1 ride. After that, the throw became unpredictable again, and the lever would hit the bar if I pulled hard enough. Where did the air come from? No idea.

I have since re-bled the levers again (a few times) and overfilled the system. (Funnel on, Reset pistons, use 3 business cards in the place of the rotor and pull lever to reset pistons)

After this procedure, they feel awesome.

I’ll guess I just need to repeat this process after every ride.

Totally worth $400.

Each.





I

 

[StiHacka]

So I had to have MTN Creek bleed my front after my asscheek met a rock on Asylum.

and then my Zees felt great : (

Probably will be a different story in a month, eh?
And I should learn how to bleed better, eh? smh

Do you have the little bleeding funnel? It takes 10 minutes to get the levers erect again using that funnel, including time you spend opening a beer and remembering where the heck you just placed that little bleeding port bolt.

 

[Udi]

FYI on sponsored DH teams unfortunate enough to run Shimano, the team mechanics have to do the above on a daily basis (force-overfilling the lever) to keep the throw reasonable. It's worse on the 4-pots because they have a longer throw to begin with (so can become dangerous with small variation), whereas the 2-pots have more wiggle room. Overfilling never lasts because if it did it would turn the brake into a closed-system, virtually all brakes are designed to evacuate this extra fill via the reservoir seals (which is why the mechanics keep topping them up every few runs).

@Bike078
http://www.epicbleedsolutions.com/blog/5-minute-shimano-mini-bleed/
Maybe this has something for you too.
Keep what I said above in mind though.

@TrumbullHucker / @Da Peach
Once the levers start playing up they usually keep doing it, it's not user error and bleeding won't permanently fix. Best solution is to buy new complete new levers - whichever are cheapest (usually Deore / SLX / Zee). They're almost always super cheap / on special somewhere, good interim option if you can't fund a new brake.

 

[StiHacka]

@TrumbullHucker / @Da Peach
Once the levers start playing up they usually keep doing it, it's not user error and bleeding won't permanently fix. Best solution is to buy new complete new levers - whichever are cheapest (usually Deore / SLX / Zee). They're almost always super cheap / on special somewhere, good interim option if you can't fund a new brake.

I know you disagree with this but my problems with Shimano brakes disappeared the moment I switched the calipers to Magura. I've been running Saintguras for 3 years and the brakes are still rock solid. The screw-in funnel is so convenient and clean to use that I'd keep using the Shimano levers just for that feature alone, even if I had to replace them every 2 years. (I only have to replace Shimano levers when @Sandwich wrecks them) I've just forced fresh oil in the trail bike's Saintguras from the calipers up and there wasn't really much gunk or oxidation in the waste oil to speak of.

 

[Jm_]

Talked with the lizards at the shimano support trailer this weekend, they said no plans ever to sell seal kits or make user serviceable brakes. Said “you should get 3-4 years out of em”, told em I had to warranty my XTR at two years. Seems incredibly wasteful, but their approach is F-you. With SRAM picking up the drivetrain game, it looks doubly bad for S.

 

[Bike078]

FYI on sponsored DH teams unfortunate enough to run Shimano, the team mechanics have to do the above on a daily basis (force-overfilling the lever) to keep the throw reasonable. It's worse on the 4-pots because they have a longer throw to begin with (so can become dangerous with small variation), whereas the 2-pots have more wiggle room. Overfilling never lasts because if it did it would turn the brake into a closed-system, virtually all brakes are designed to evacuate this extra fill via the reservoir seals (which is why the mechanics keep topping them up every few runs).

@Bike078
http://www.epicbleedsolutions.com/blog/5-minute-shimano-mini-bleed/
Maybe this has something for you too.
Keep what I said above in mind though.

@TrumbullHucker / @Da Peach
Once the levers start playing up they usually keep doing it, it's not user error and bleeding won't permanently fix. Best solution is to buy new complete new levers - whichever are cheapest (usually Deore / SLX / Zee). They're almost always super cheap / on special somewhere, good interim option if you can't fund a new brake.

Thanks Udi.

 

[Bike078]

Talked with the lizards at the shimano support trailer this weekend, they said no plans ever to sell seal kits or make user serviceable brakes. Said “you should get 3-4 years out of em”, told em I had to warranty my XTR at two years. Seems incredibly wasteful, but their approach is F-you. With SRAM picking up the drivetrain game, it looks doubly bad for S.

That's really sad to hear. They are the most affordable brakes in my country and the brand that the local shops in my city have experience with or have spares for.

 

[Sandwich]

Talked with the lizards at the shimano support trailer this weekend, they said no plans ever to sell seal kits or make user serviceable brakes. Said “you should get 3-4 years out of em”, told em I had to warranty my XTR at two years. Seems incredibly wasteful, but their approach is F-you. With SRAM picking up the drivetrain game, it looks doubly bad for S.

not to take this way off topic, but sram is absolutely dominating shimano these days. They're more innovative, quicker to market with parts, and now people are saying that their drivetrain actually shifts better than shimano's stuff. So...lighter cassettes, wider ranges, better shifting, and they both have shitty brakes. Oh well.

 

[Da Peach]

@TrumbullHucker / @Da Peach
Once the levers start playing up they usually keep doing it, it's not user error and bleeding won't permanently fix. Best solution is to buy new complete new levers - whichever are cheapest (usually Deore / SLX / Zee). They're almost always super cheap / on special somewhere, good interim option if you can't fund a new brake.[/QUOTE]

Purchase new levers “for a good deal”?

FUCK THAT.

3 year warranty and on my “premium” brakes.

I’m not spending another dime on un-fucking them. Just burning time and brain cells.

They sure look pretty, and they’re light. So when I post up my warranty replacents, someone should totally buy them.

 

[Udi]

Purchase new levers “for a good deal”?
FUCK THAT.
I’m not spending another dime on un-fucking them. Just burning time and brain cells.

I totally agree, but some people here are on tight budgets (which I understand) and functionally-equivalent replacement mc/levers for Shimano are *really* cheap quite often (~us20 each). I just thought I'd leave a solution instead of my usual "avoid them like the plague" because the people I ride with who still do ride Shimano brakes (a steadily dwindling number!) are replacing the levers every 12 months to keep them functioning, and it does the job.

I know you disagree with this but my problems with Shimano brakes disappeared the moment I switched the calipers to Magura. I've been running Saintguras for 3 years and the brakes are still rock solid. The screw-in funnel is so convenient and clean to use that I'd keep using the Shimano levers just for that feature alone, even if I had to replace them every 2 years.

I totally respect (and believe) that the combo works for you and a few others, but there's separate (different) issues with the levers and the calipers - if yours work for you that's great, but are these other guys with problem brakes supposed to risk buying a Magura caliper to then potentially find out (I'd bet money in this particular case) that they need to buy new levers too if it turns out that was the issue? There's a big difference between a product working for 3 people on a forum compared to the global average failure rate.

Anyway, by all means everyone should make their own choice, and certainly no harm in trying a Magura caliper if that's an option and someone is already riding a dangerous brake anyway. But it's a fact that both the Shimano levers and calipers have known-issues (no secret within the industry / within heavy-use circles). It's a percentages game: if they were all faulty they'd be forced to recall, so of course some work fine too. It's cheaper to not do a recall and handle problem cases individually, Fight Club taught us why in 1999.

Personally however, I will not recommend / support a line of products that:

• Has had known issues for nearly a decade with no attempt at nor intention of addressing the problem
• Wears its master piston out slowly and contaminates its own fluid with oxides and wear particles under normal usage (what is this, Marzocchi in 2002?)
• Has no spare parts available and is designed to be thrown away even if only a small internal part fails, thus essentially disposable
• Has on too many occasions proven to be flat out dangerous

Everything has problems, but most of the time responsibility is accepted and improvements are made.
This on the other hand is a joke.

 

[Da Peach]

These came on a demo bike I bought, and I thought that this was a selling feature. Fool me once...

My next brakes will be funded by the sale of my brand new XTRs...

I’ll live with Saints while I shop around.

I totally agree, but some people here are on tight budgets (which I understand) and functionally-equivalent replacement mc/levers for Shimano are *really* cheap quite often (~us20 each). I just thought I'd leave a solution instead of my usual "avoid them like the plague" because the people I ride with who still do ride Shimano brakes (a steadily dwindling number!) are replacing the levers every 12 months to keep them functioning, and it does the job.

I totally respect (and believe) that the combo works for you and a few others, but there's separate (different) issues with the levers and the calipers - if yours work for you that's great, but are these other guys with problem brakes supposed to risk buying a Magura caliper to then potentially find out (I'd bet money in this particular case) that they need to buy new levers too if it turns out that was the issue? There's a big difference between a product working for 3 people on a forum compared to the global average failure rate.

Anyway, by all means everyone should make their own choice, and certainly no harm in trying a Magura caliper if that's an option and someone is already riding a dangerous brake anyway. But it's a fact that both the Shimano levers and calipers have known-issues (no secret within the industry / within heavy-use circles). It's a percentages game: if they were all faulty they'd be forced to recall, so of course some work fine too. It's cheaper to not do a recall and handle problem cases individually, Fight Club taught us why in 1999.

Personally however, I will not recommend / support a line of products that:

• Has had known issues for nearly a decade with no attempt at nor intention of addressing the problem
• Wears its master piston out slowly and contaminates its own fluid with oxides and wear particles under normal usage (what is this, Marzocchi in 2002?)
• Has no spare parts available and is designed to be thrown away even if only a small internal part fails, thus essentially disposable
• Has on too many occasions proven to be flat out dangerous

Everything has problems, but most of the time responsibility is accepted and improvements are made.
This on the other hand is a joke.

 

[Nick]

Cura 4s appear one step closer to being real

edit: like 3-4 teams are on these ... who's got the inside scoop on a release date for us nobodies?

 

[jstuhlman]

Cura 4s appear one step closer to being real

/subscribed

 

[Jm_]

EEEEYYEEAAAAHHHHHHH!

Meet the new boss.

These came on a demo bike I bought, and I thought that this was a selling feature. Fool me once...

My next brakes will be funded by the sale of my brand new XTRs...

I’ll live with Saints while I shop around.

 

[TrumbullHucker]

Yeah @StiHacka I have the funnel bleed kit... my 1 liter shimano brake fluid is half gone, so maybe my bleeds aren't half bad... it just goes to shit after a couple weeks.

 

[6thElement]

Yeah @StiHacka I have the funnel bleed kit... my 1 liter shimano brake fluid is half gone, so maybe my bleeds aren't half bad... it just goes to shit after a couple weeks.

Reminds me of my original Codes. Many times I cooked in the sun in the Diablo/Creek lot doing a bleed because they were shit.

 

[Udi]

 

[kidwoo]

^solid

I know you disagree with this but my problems with Shimano brakes disappeared the moment I switched the calipers to Magura. I've been running Saintguras for 3 years and the brakes are still rock solid. The screw-in funnel is so convenient and clean to use that I'd keep using the Shimano levers just for that feature alone, even if I had to replace them every 2 years. (I only have to replace Shimano levers when @Sandwich wrecks them) I've just forced fresh oil in the trail bike's Saintguras from the calipers up and there wasn't really much gunk or oxidation in the waste oil to speak of.

I was told I can ignore you with your crazy systems based in reality.

I had 2 sets of brakes that would vary the bite point so badly, I'd get about 1-2 days of riding after a bleed before the process repeated. For all the suspicion of the the levers causing it, neither pair has so much flinched since switching calipers. It's not the levers. It's the calipers. Or someone's got some leaky levers (which isn't hard to do) or just benefited from a fresh bleed when they switched them. But there's no denying reality. Other than popping one brake to move to a different frame, I haven't bled either set in a year and they still work exactly the same. I'm using the clear formula oil and the heavy shimano gunk comes from the shimano calipers, no question. I'd guess it's the ceramic pistons falling apart.

FWIW, both of my sets are with the newer style levers

https://www.jensonusa.com/globalassets/product-images---all-assets/shimano/bl245c01.jpg

not these

http://www.wigglestatic.com/product-media/5360074940/shimano_blm675r.jpg?w=430&h=430&a=7

Like you, I still stand by my suggestion that if someone already owns some of these, just sticking some cura (or 'gura) calipers is a cheap way to get some good, reliable brakes that eliminate the shimano problems. Again that's only based in actually trying it though, not on what I think will happen.

My only real gripe so far is that the formula pistons have so little travel in them from engaged to open that I'm pretty sure on my dh bike on really really sustained heavy braking, they heat up the rotor enough to temporarily deform it. HAB thought it was shimano pads, and/or maybe some play in the pad spring that would make them drag a little and then stop. I'm pretty sure it's just heat and a tight tolerance. It's never happened on my trail bike.

 

[Da Peach]

Which hose do you use to connect to the lever? Shimano or Formula?

^solid



I was told I can ignore you with your crazy systems based in reality.

I had 2 sets of brakes that would vary the bite point so badly, I'd get about 1-2 days of riding after a bleed before the process repeated. For all the suspicion of the the levers causing it, neither pair has so much flinched since switching calipers. It's not the levers. It's the calipers. Or someone's got some leaky levers (which isn't hard to do) or just benefited from a fresh bleed when they switched them. But there's no denying reality. Other than popping one brake to move to a different frame, I haven't bled either set in a year and they still work exactly the same. I'm using the clear formula oil and the heavy shimano gunk comes from the shimano calipers, no question. I'd guess it's the ceramic pistons falling apart.

FWIW, both of my sets are with the newer style levers

https://www.jensonusa.com/globalassets/product-images---all-assets/shimano/bl245c01.jpg

not these

http://www.wigglestatic.com/product-media/5360074940/shimano_blm675r.jpg?w=430&h=430&a=7

Like you, I still stand by my suggestion that if someone already owns some of these, just sticking some cura (or 'gura) calipers is a cheap way to get some good, reliable brakes that eliminate the shimano problems. Again that's only based in actually trying it though, not on what I think will happen.

My only real gripe so far is that the formula pistons have so little travel in them from engaged to open that I'm pretty sure on my dh bike on really really sustained heavy braking, they heat up the rotor enough to temporarily deform it. HAB thought it was shimano pads, and/or maybe some play in the pad spring that would make them drag a little and then stop. I'm pretty sure it's just heat and a tight tolerance. It's never happened on my trail bike.

 

[kidwoo]

You have to use a formula hose to mate up with the caliper. It's got a crimped end that you need.

Shimano olive barrel, and either the formula or a sram olive.

edit: I just did a quick looksie and I can't find anywhere that sells just the calipers. If anyone finds that, speak up. You can get a whole brake for 150 in freedom bux but that's not a whole lot cheaper than just buying something else like some hopes.

 

[Udi]

@kidwoo
I have nothing against swapping - don't forget that I started the damn thread to encourage more people to try these things, and to hopefully provide a stable resource to check which combinations will work and what to expect in terms of peak force as well as throw changes. I think it's cool that you / Sti / others have found success.

If people are trying combinations with other calipers I would just advise you start with a fresh pair of cheap Shimano levers (eg. Deore servo wave, which I think troy pointed out were a little better built internally too? or Zee/SLX) instead of using old ones that come from problematic brakes, because they do wear out internally, and they do get worse over time. The throw distance (not variability, separate issue) *does* grow permanently longer as these levers age, and it's because of the lever not the caliper. It's less likely to be an actual problem on your Cura (slave area equalling XT with 22mm slaves + very tight rotor clearance = much shorter throw than the 4-pot combos) but on the bigger calipers starting with a well-used lever can be dangerous.

Also you're throwing an "us vs. them" umbrella, but your setup ends up completely different in throw (shorter than XT even!) compared to the Magura 4-pot combo . It also has 20% less braking force than the OP's Zee brake, does he want that? The Magura on the other hand would have similar stopping force but longer throw than the Cura (similar to Zee/Saint). If going Cura, I'd consider the old levers, if going Magura I'd get a fresh set. You and Sti's brake setup could not be more different, build one and see if you like.

Edit - a mistake here, Cura uses 24mm slaves as per T1, so this brake will have greater force than an XT but less than a Zee, my apologies. Troy must be busy, I feel like he would have spotted this!

There's a combo of things that cause big problems to pop up very quickly - it's a rear brake on a DH bike (particularly 650b) being used for lift/park riding, exacerbated by using a high-leverage setup, in this case Saint/Zee/MT5/MT7 calipers. This isn't an enduro vs DH thing, it's a "big bikes doing park laps destroy rear brakes" thing. I'm pretty sure Sti has his on trailbike (not a heavy park lapper bike I bet), your setup doesn't count unless he wants to take a decent hit in peak force, and troy was still on 26" at the time and said he was only trying it on the front, not the rear. There's a reason I asked him about that specifically.

I'm not having a go at you, in fact aside from the power hit and small pads, if I wanted a consistent frankenbrake to recommend to anyone and feel fairly safe about it, it'd be yours.

Trumbull will have at least one brake on the rear of a DH bike being park lapped, so without checking wheel size, it's already close to worst-case-scenario, and none of you have thoroughly tested or documented this for an equal-force brake to his current ones. Mr Peach throwing Cura calipers on his brake? Different story, I say go for it.

This stuff is different to suspension / drivetrain / etc, because a failure can directly cause a crash / injury and if we're suggesting things to other people, we should be careful assuming that one brake working for one person's usage is sufficient proof "it works". I know you know this and you'll make me sound like a dork for saying it, but I'll cop the hit if it stops someone smacking a tree.

PS. Both the levers and calipers develop piston and bore wear (and both contribute to the fluid blackening), I've tried them separately as frankens. Shimano brakes have done it before the ceramic pistons, although they do seem to make it worse. Not a huge concern functionally, I just don't like it.

 

[kidwoo]

I remember checking your spreadsheet before I did this to see if anyone had put in the measurements for curas yet. They didn't really exist in wild yet. It's a good point to note the difference between the magura and cura calipers with regards to lever throw. Mine are really really tight. Like a few mms of throw. And I love it. I wish all brakes felt like that. But my point wasn't to highlight that they're the same system, just that getting away from the calipers has (at least so far) cured 100% of my shimano problems.

I know how the math works out between the two but what do you know about friction between the formula metal pads and the shimano ones? If I had to guess I'd say the formulas actually grab a little harder in drag if not in clamping force. I've run both pads in them. I don't feel like I gave up anything in braking power with those things which really surprised me. Especially since I bought them quickly, while shouting, and very much in anger after another near death shimano experience one day. Could just be a mental impression with the short, powerful, manly and highly efficient lever throw.....but them bitches stop hard.

That 4 piston caliper can't come fast enough.