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Don't bring home the troops just yet - Obama...

RenegadeRick

98th percentile on my SAT & all I got was this tin
Please enlighten me as to why Obama doesn't want them home anymore?
He never did. It was political doublespeak. Do a bit more googling and you will find this to be the case.

There were several candidates that did want immediate and complete withdrawal from Iraq. Kucinich and Paul being the first that pop into my mind.

There are still candidates that favor such a plan, but you won't hear about them on your major media TV outlet.

So Curtix, is your point here to disparage Obama or to push for immediate troop withdrawl? Because if you want the troops to come home, you got my support, but if you are using this argument to persuade me to vote for John McSame and Caribou Barbie, you fail. They aren't into troop withdrawal either.
 
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curtix

Guest
He never did. It was political doublespeak. Do a bit more googling and you will find this to be the case.

There were several candidates that did want immediate and complete withdrawal from Iraq. Kucinich and Paul being the first that pop into my mind.

There are still candidates that favor such a plan, but you won't hear about them on your major media TV outlet.

So Curtix, is your point here to disparage Obama or to push for immediate troop withdrawl? Because if you want the troops to come home, you got my support, but if you are using this argument to persuade me to vote for John McSame and Caribou Barbie, you fail. They aren't into troop withdrawal either.
Its honestly a check. I mean like I am amazed that Obama can do this. If he is really trying to get the Iraqi Government to not get the guys home, that's horrific and people should know. Its not about votes as it is about I am amazed if this is the case. It doesn't read like "Double Speak". Read the article.
 

dante

Unabomber
Feb 13, 2004
8,814
9
looking for classic NE singletrack
Its honestly a check. I mean like I am amazed that Obama can do this. If he is really trying to get the Iraqi Government to not get the guys home, that's horrific and people should know. Its not about votes as it is about I am amazed if this is the case. It doesn't read like "Double Speak". Read the article.
your "source" is the nypost... if you don't know why that nullifies your entire argument, you must not have read that paper before.
 
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curtix

Guest
your "source" is the nypost... if you don't know why that nullifies your entire argument, you must not have read that paper before.
I have read your stuff before you nullified your entire argument. Save you "poison the well" tactics for the play ground.
Cheers
:cheers:
 

dante

Unabomber
Feb 13, 2004
8,814
9
looking for classic NE singletrack
I have read your stuff before you nullified your entire argument. Save you "poison the well" tactics for the play ground.
Cheers
:cheers:
no, I'm serious. the *ONLY* source for this story is an "exclusive story" in NY's second most laughed at newspaper (the first being the nysun, but they trade the title back and forth). not only that, it's part of the "guest columnist" section of the newspaper, so they aren't even claiming that it's real, or that it's part of their hard work that uncovered this. they're just saying "oh, this is someone's opinion"... ie, NOT FACT.

:crazy:
 
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curtix

Guest
no, I'm serious. the *ONLY* source for this story is an "exclusive story" in NY's second most laughed at newspaper (the first being the nysun, but they trade the title back and forth). not only that, it's part of the "guest columnist" section of the newspaper, so they aren't even claiming that it's real, or that it's part of their hard work that uncovered this. they're just saying "oh, this is someone's opinion"... ie, NOT FACT.

:crazy:
So quotes are probably fabricated?
I am asking honestly.
I don't mind being wrong.
 
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curtix

Guest
curtix is like a nose hair.......n8 got plucked....curtix grew in to take his place......
I can't respond, becuase I don't know n8 - but I probably would have liked him since he must have been like me to some degree. Its ok I have thick skin.
Nose hair be damned!:shocked:
 

binary visions

The voice of reason
Jun 13, 2002
21,712
525
NC
So quotes are probably fabricated?
I am asking honestly.
I don't mind being wrong.
What do you want anyone to say?

A non-credible news source is the only place to post an opinion (i.e. non-verified) piece with a claim in it that you are taking at face value, and you are asking everyone to disprove it?
 
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curtix

Guest
What do you want anyone to say?

A non-credible news source is the only place to post an opinion (i.e. non-verified) piece with a claim in it that you are taking at face value, and you are asking everyone to disprove it?
Well if it was opinion based I wouldn't have posted it. But there are quotes in there, and if those quotes are legit, well that's an epic FAIL for Obama. I do not believe the quotes were fabricated. This story is up on Drudge now as well. If it is BS we will hear about it soon enough.
 

dante

Unabomber
Feb 13, 2004
8,814
9
looking for classic NE singletrack
So quotes are probably fabricated?
I am asking honestly.
I don't mind being wrong.
so, ok, here goes:

There are no Obama quotes to dispute, so it's the NY Post printing Amir Taheri quoting Zabiri who is paraphrasing Obama. Just like a game of telephone, each time something gets paraphrased, interpreted, etc, there's the ability of whoever's doing the "paraphrasing" to put their own spin on it.

So, lets start from the very end, and work our way forward.

NYPost - I was serious when I said they had no journalistic integrity. They are about as right-wing as you can get, and have posted quite a bit of falsehoods, half-truths, and propaganda in the last 200 years (oldest surviving newspaper in the US!). However, judging from the other characters in this chain, it could reasonably assured that they printed what Taheri wrote.

Amir Taheri - honestly, wiki does a FAR better job at blowing all sorts of holes into this "journalist" than I ever could... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amir_Taheri

Not all he's ever said could be thought of as, uh, truthful?

Zebari - Obviously doesn't want US troops going anywhere. Even though polls of Iraqis show that they want us out, and the government has even come out in favor of a timeline for withdrawal, he wants the US to stay put.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/06/17/AR2008061702034.html

So can you see how this information coming out now from a questionable journalist, printed in an non-reputable source on the guest column page, quoting an official with questionable goals paraphrasing one of the main candidates 3 months after the fact might not be exactly the type of story that you want to be defending?
 
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curtix

Guest
so, ok, here goes:

There are no Obama quotes to dispute, so it's the NY Post printing Amir Taheri quoting Zabiri who is paraphrasing Obama. Just like a game of telephone, each time something gets paraphrased, interpreted, etc, there's the ability of whoever's doing the "paraphrasing" to put their own spin on it.

So, lets start from the very end, and work our way forward.

NYPost - I was serious when I said they had no journalistic integrity. They are about as right-wing as you can get, and have posted quite a bit of falsehoods, half-truths, and propaganda in the last 200 years (oldest surviving newspaper in the US!). However, judging from the other characters in this chain, it could reasonably assured that they printed what Taheri wrote.

Amir Taheri - honestly, wiki does a FAR better job at blowing all sorts of holes into this "journalist" than I ever could... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amir_Taheri

Not all he's ever said could be thought of as, uh, truthful?

Zebari - Obviously doesn't want US troops going anywhere. Even though polls of Iraqis show that they want us out, and the government has even come out in favor of a timeline for withdrawal, he wants the US to stay put.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/06/17/AR2008061702034.html

So can you see how this information coming out now from a questionable journalist, printed in an non-reputable source on the guest column page, quoting an official with questionable goals paraphrasing one of the main candidates 3 months after the fact might not be exactly the type of story that you want to be defending?
If Obama had these conversations that Zebari claims he did, would you consider that a bad thing? I do see your points about the source by the way.
But the quotes are quotes, Just based on the quote ""He asked why we were not prepared to delay an agreement until after the US elections and the formation of a new administration in Washington," Zebari said in an interview." alone there is some issue here - UNLESS they are fabricated. That's all I am saying.
 

sanjuro

Tube Smuggler
Sep 13, 2004
17,411
0
SF
So quotes are probably fabricated?
I am asking honestly.
I don't mind being wrong.
As a dedicated reader of the Post's gossip and sports sections, I can tell you that their editorial board is the worse I have ever seen in a major newspaper.

While this is ancient history, I remember the opening of Harvey Milk High School, an alternative school for gays, lesbians, and transsexuals who were being harassed in their regular schools. Ray Kerrison, who is the horse racing beat writer, wrote a scathing editoral against the school, which all I remember is that he ranted and raved but justified his hatred of gays with one line "The Bible Said So".

Assuming that Hoshyar Zebari's statement is true, there could be several reasons why Obama asked for delay, from the strictly political (like it benefits Obama's election chances to have troops remain there) to a need to maintain the status quo while our government changes over.

I am going to wait until more credible news sources report and analyze this before I make a judgment.
 

dante

Unabomber
Feb 13, 2004
8,814
9
looking for classic NE singletrack
If Obama had these conversations that Zebari claims he did, would you consider that a bad thing? I do see your points about the source by the way.
But the quotes are quotes, Just based on the quote ""He asked why we were not prepared to delay an agreement until after the US elections and the formation of a new administration in Washington," Zebari said in an interview." alone there is some issue here - UNLESS they are fabricated. That's all I am saying.
dude, give it up...
 

Defenestrated

Turbo Monkey
Mar 28, 2007
1,657
0
Earth
Obama insisted that Congress should be involved in negotiations on the status of US troops - and that it was in the interests of both sides not to have an agreement negotiated by the Bush administration in its "state of weakness and political confusion."
Doesn't this bit just about answer any questions?

He is convinced that the Bush administration will fvck it up, and looking at its track record he has come to a logical conclusion.
 

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,638
4
SF, CA
If McCain actually said we should solve our energy problem by burning poor people in steam-turbine incinerators than that is a problem.
 

Samirol

Turbo Monkey
Jun 23, 2008
1,437
0
He was talking about how the country is only half-heartedly in the war effort. At home, people aren't at war, and he said that if we go to war, then it has to be like in World War 2 where everything is focused on the war.
 

Samirol

Turbo Monkey
Jun 23, 2008
1,437
0
I am wholeheartedly against the war effort.
exactly, which is why we need to get out of Iraq. There isn't a reason to be behind it, and we need to get out soon.

He is making the point that the U.S can't keep doing Vietnams and Iraqs, if we are going to go to war, it better be for something important.
 

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,638
4
SF, CA
exactly, which is why we need to get out of Iraq. There isn't a reason to be behind it, and we need to get out soon.

He is making the point that the U.S can't keep doing Vietnams and Iraqs, if we are going to go to war, it better be for something important.
Are you saying "he tried to kill my daddy" isn't important?
 

Samirol

Turbo Monkey
Jun 23, 2008
1,437
0
Are you saying "he tried to kill my daddy" isn't important?
I'm saying that we need to support our President because we elected him and to not support him is anti-democratic.

Everyone makes mistakes, which is why we have to make sure that Iran isn't planning to nuke Israel by invading and taking down all their infrastructure.
 

?????

Turbo Monkey
Jun 20, 2005
1,685
2
San Francisco
So Curtix, is your point here to disparage Obama or to push for immediate troop withdrawl? Because if you want the troops to come home, you got my support, but if you are using this argument to persuade me to vote for John McSame and Caribou Barbie, you fail. They aren't into troop withdrawal either.
Cause... I mean, no one would want to talk badly about such a great candidate.
 

sanjuro

Tube Smuggler
Sep 13, 2004
17,411
0
SF
Not only does Obama not want to bring the troops home, he wants more troops available for deployment through a draft. Or at least that is what this article suggests.

Oh, and you guys will LOVE the source. :monkeydance:
I read that article, and boy, there is jumping to conclusions here:

Obama holds out the prospect that, at least initially, his demand for wider participation in military service would consist of encouraging more enlistments in the volunteer army. When that failed, as it undoubtedly would, to produce sufficient cannon fodder for the next round of imperialist wars, the logical next step would be reactivation of the Selective Service System, which still exists, albeit in mothballed form.
While utilizing the occasional high-flown phrase to appeal to the idealism of youth and students, Obama is offering the ruling class a brutal bargain: Select me as president, and I will repay you in blood.
By Obama said:
“Well, first of all, as commander-in-chief, my job is to keep America safe. And that means insuring that we’ve got the best military on Earth. And that means having the best persons in uniform on Earth. We have that right now, but as a consequence of these wars, they have been strained incredibly. I think it’s important for us to increase the size of our Army and our Marines so we can reduce the pace of tours that our young men and women are on.”
Strengthening our military is a good idea. Believe it or not, it does keep people like Patrick Martin free to make any illogical statement he wants.
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,846
0
Orange County, CA
Strengthening our military is a good idea. Believe it or not, it does keep people like Patrick Martin free to make any illogical statement he wants.
No, strengthening our military is a horrible idea. The military is bleeding the United States dry, and what do we get in return? A bunch of dead brown people, and a President who becomes a war criminal almost by default.

The US Military is a defensive weapon in the same sense that OJ's knife was a defensive weapon.
 

Samirol

Turbo Monkey
Jun 23, 2008
1,437
0
Face it, we are a nation of people that don't believe in diplomacy. We are a nation that believes that terrorists are a threat to the stability of the country, that the best way to deal with people is force, that international laws don't apply to us, and that we are the arbiters of morality.

The days of soft power and hard facts are over in government, we are in an age where speculation and fear run rampant. Neoconservatives need an enemy to remain in control, and they will lie and make the enemy to be a bigger threat than it really is (Soviet Union, Bill Clinton, terrorism).

People respond to fear better than reason.
 

sanjuro

Tube Smuggler
Sep 13, 2004
17,411
0
SF
No, strengthening our military is a horrible idea. The military is bleeding the United States dry, and what do we get in return? A bunch of dead brown people, and a President who becomes a war criminal almost by default.

The US Military is a defensive weapon in the same sense that OJ's knife was a defensive weapon.
Then you have no clue about the real world.

You and I take for granted about the American military because we are not on a carrier cruising the South China Sea, working at NATO Headquarters, serving on a cutter based out of Kodiak, or one thousand other military posts around the world.

Our political, social, and economic power stems from a strong military.

What I complain about is the person leading our forces, not the military itself. We might not need Star Wars or a war in Iraq, but we need our military.
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,846
0
Orange County, CA
Then you have no clue about the real world.

You and I take for granted about the American military because we are not on a carrier cruising the South China Sea, working at NATO Headquarters, serving on a cutter based out of Kodiak, or one thousand other military posts around the world.

Our political, social, and economic power stems from a strong military.

What I complain about is the person leading our forces, not the military itself. We might not need Star Wars or a war in Iraq, but we need our military.
No, we don't need an empire spread around the entire globe. There are other prosperous countries that do just fine without it. And if you believe that US defence spending lets other countries free ride, nothing would solve that problem like massive cuts in the US military.
 

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,638
4
SF, CA
No, we don't need an empire spread around the entire globe. There are other prosperous countries that do just fine without it. And if you believe that US defence spending lets other countries free ride, nothing would solve that problem like massive cuts in the US military.
I would add a middle ground subtlety to your and Sanjuro's discussion. That the American military exists adds significant stability to diplomatic relations globally and extending beyond those the US to it's allies. (It's a threat to stability when we choose to use it inappropriately, but that's a separate issue.)

If it disappeared, that would be catastrophic globally. At the same time, we are effectively subsidizing the militaries of our dozens of allies. A similarly stabilizing military force could theoretically be made up of more equitable contributions to total military might from our allies. We choose not to preclude that, because we believe we stand alone even from our allies. We basically are maintaining a very expensive option for unilateralism, or the priciest veto in the history of the world.
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,846
0
Orange County, CA
If it disappeared, that would be catastrophic globally. At the same time, we are effectively subsidizing the militaries of our dozens of allies. A similarly stabilizing military force could theoretically be made up of more equitable contributions to total military might from our allies. We choose not to preclude that, because we believe we stand alone even from our allies. We basically are maintaining a very expensive option for unilateralism, or the priciest veto in the history of the world.
I'm not talking about it disappearing. I'm talking about maybe getting down to the $200B/year range. Which would still be more than twice as much as China and Russia spend combined.
 

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,638
4
SF, CA
I'm not talking about it disappearing. I'm talking about maybe getting down to the $200B/year range. Which would still be more than twice as much as China and Russia spend combined.
Yeah but **** is cheap in China and Russia. If were outsourcing our military like a customer support line then you could compare numbers directly.

I'm saying that we couldn't have a proportional military without our allies building up to replace/augment as we scale down. I would like to see a president start advocating that, and be diplomatically strong enough to start making it happen. Maybe the only good thing to come out of the Bush presidency is that maybe our allies will be a little more willing to pay for the US to scale down... previously it's been all well and good to criticize while enjoying the safety we provide. I think GWB did a damn good job of pointing out the flaws in that plan.
 

Samirol

Turbo Monkey
Jun 23, 2008
1,437
0
We spend 33 billion dollars less than the rest of the world COMBINED on our military. I think we can afford to cut military spending by 50%.
 

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,638
4
SF, CA
We spend 33 billion dollars less than the rest of the world COMBINED on our military. I think we can afford to cut military spending by 50%.
Agreed, but with the understanding that others will ramp up to fill them vacuum and we really really want those others to be our allies.
 

Samirol

Turbo Monkey
Jun 23, 2008
1,437
0
Agreed, but with the understanding that others will ramp up to fill them vacuum and we really really want those others to be our allies.
I really, really, doubt that other countries would ramp up military spending just because we cut ours.

edit: What I'm getting at is that it doesn't make sense that the only thing keeping other countries from engaging in a massive buildup is the US' large and overextended military. We don't have the capacity to help our allies too well because we are so overextended.
 
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