Word on the street is the Manitou are designing a new fork to replace the Dorado... anyone with an inside line on what it'll be like?
I hear it won't be an 'upside down' design.
I hear it won't be an 'upside down' design.
Dorado no more?
- Thread starter jon-boy
- Start date
what street did this word come from?
well wat else would they change? Maybe they find that going non inverted is the way to go and they can just expand on that. THAT MOTHER FRICKEN FLY! but i havent heard any of this before, maybe just a bad rumor
No matter how good of a chassi the 200mm 32mm X-works dorado was, the 8.5lb weight would never have been accepted, it's the heaviest race fork in the "normal" 170mm positive travel configuration, well maybe tied with the 888, but with only 32mm stanchions, the reasons not to buy one keep racking up these days.
Manitou has shown they can design some decent chassis, just pray for decent lubrication.
Manitou has shown they can design some decent chassis, just pray for decent lubrication.
Jm_ said:
foot fell out of the mouth again, eh?
ohio said:
my WB with 32mm stanchions will run circles around a shiver in terms of stiffness.Not really, the better fore aft stiffness advantage is a function of the larger diameter uppers. Design a "non-inverted" fork with larger stanchions and you negate that "advantage".ohio said:
So take something that has bigger stanchions than the dorado, like the 888, or fox 40, and suddently that arguement flys out the window, which brings me back to my point. The competition has lighter non-inverted forks now for downhill racing, I'm not sure how much further the dorado chassi can take manitou.
I heard Answer acquired Hannebrink and RST, so good things should come of out their recent product launch in AZ. SPV valved disc brakes are also in the works.
well the Dorados been around for awhile, not surprising theres gonna be another product cycle. And compared to Marz and RS, they always seem to have shorter cycles (look at the X-Vert timeline)
Also i think bushing design is overlooked with inverts, namely the Shiver. I did that simulation awhile back and got quite a surprising difference in stiffness using a 4 point bushing setup over a 2 point one. Stiffer the leg, stiffer the torsional performance.
Also i think bushing design is overlooked with inverts, namely the Shiver. I did that simulation awhile back and got quite a surprising difference in stiffness using a 4 point bushing setup over a 2 point one. Stiffer the leg, stiffer the torsional performance.
SPV blows
ok as far as i know
which is only internet knowledge from reliable sources
the name will be "kingpin DH", about 8" travel, regular side up fork.
new damping system, supposedly with an open oilbath a mix between TPC+ and SPV. that means no real info on that yet
and as allways with new products it will be the best thing since sliced bread
which is only internet knowledge from reliable sources
the name will be "kingpin DH", about 8" travel, regular side up fork.
new damping system, supposedly with an open oilbath a mix between TPC+ and SPV. that means no real info on that yet
and as allways with new products it will be the best thing since sliced bread
Sounds flexy.UiUiUiUi said:the name will be "kingpin DH", about 8" travel, regular side up fork.
new damping system, supposedly with an open oilbath a mix between TPC+ and SPV. that means no real info on that yet
btw if the new dh fork is based on the kingpin it will be a fairly stiff fork. the king pin already has about 10mm of unused travel in the dampaning rod. one thing to remember about the kingpin is that it uses steel stantions and that makes the fork stiff. also i have a kingpin with sherman Q/R lowers and it will hange with most T/A forks for stiffness in all aspects
Obviously not, but that helps prove my point, that just because it's "inverted" doesn't magically make it a superior chassi. What's the point of making a super expensive carbon fiber inverted chassi when you can make a non-inverted chassi with bigger stanchions for much cheaper? We'll see, again this is speculation as to what manitou will do, but as I said, the competition makes lighter race forks these days, and they don't seen to have any problems with stiffness. If manitou doesn't change the chassi soon it will be seen as stagnating, even if it isn't "that bad". That's just the way business works.ohio said:
personally I think all of them will eventually go to inverted designs when they find the proper balance of material, design and rigidity. Take the Shiver for example. If you put the hexagon axle of the Dorado on it and the right mix of lightweight and stiff materials, and damping along the lines of the 888 at a weight of around 7lbs or 7 1/4lbs, you've got your top of the line fork.
I haven't said anything to Brian b/c I'm sure it has gone through his head that a lighter Shiver with the updated damping is the fork of the future.
I always will view motocross as the benchmark for where we need to be....as long as they use inverted forks...I'm guessing we should be using them. I loved the Shiver I had and it was a tough decision to go with the works 888 again over it this year, but I did for the damping(which I LOVE), not the design.
I agree with the guy who pointed out the poor lubrication methods of the Manitou. Until they get that worked out they're still in the infancy stages of development, no matter what else the fork does.
Also, look at Honda and what Nico was using before he retired...inverted forks with oil bath. Heck, I was pretty surprised when Fox made the DH40....I thought for sure it would be inverted....still can't believe it but I guess since they haven't ever done it, they went with a design they already knew was safe.
I haven't said anything to Brian b/c I'm sure it has gone through his head that a lighter Shiver with the updated damping is the fork of the future.
I always will view motocross as the benchmark for where we need to be....as long as they use inverted forks...I'm guessing we should be using them. I loved the Shiver I had and it was a tough decision to go with the works 888 again over it this year, but I did for the damping(which I LOVE), not the design.
I agree with the guy who pointed out the poor lubrication methods of the Manitou. Until they get that worked out they're still in the infancy stages of development, no matter what else the fork does.
Also, look at Honda and what Nico was using before he retired...inverted forks with oil bath. Heck, I was pretty surprised when Fox made the DH40....I thought for sure it would be inverted....still can't believe it but I guess since they haven't ever done it, they went with a design they already knew was safe.
So 32mm of your WB fork and 35mm of a Shiver.........??? Wouldn't the Shiver be stiffer?Curb Hucker said:
I couldn't be happier with both my Shiver DC and SC. The parking lot test will flex a tad. But who the hell grabs the fork and goes "it's flexy" while riding? I haven't found any flex yet in either one period on the trails. STiffness isn't a concern.
The one thing they still don't make for the Shiver is Ti springs. I'd be all over that as a way to lighten up the front. That's the only issue is weight. In terms of function it's great. You really don't have to do much to it at all besides change oil etc....
I was too surprised when Fox showed their fork. I don't have any doubts that it will work fine, it's just alot of $$$ for basicly a regular fork with some fancy materials. I dunno, I don't fly with it.
The Dorado's and Shivers seemed to come out at the same time. Both had DC and SC options. I just think with their seal problems and the whole lubrication system is funny. If it had zocchi internals but with the carbon legs and such now THAT would be a sick fork.
Oh well.........we'll dream a little bit
Well, compare a MX Shiver to a MTB Shiver and there is quite a difference... One MX leg weighs about as much as the complete MTB fork... With any design, there are limits.. The biggest problem for fork companies right now is that we have got riders that are more aggressive than ever, people who want products that are lighter, and it still has to be obtainable by the masses... And those are things that don't really mix well... Personally, I would rather have an extra 1/4 to 1/2 a pound on the front of my bike and not worry about it...
Keith Bontrager put it best... Light, strong, cheap... Pick two.
Brian
Keith Bontrager put it best... Light, strong, cheap... Pick two.
Brian
Brian, wouldn't the ideal inverted fork best be suited to a "DH" spec built up OEM bike.....that way you could produce a lightweight "race only" Shiver with basicly no sort of warranty, but speced on a specific use DH RACE ONLY bike.
The person who buys the fork knows the intended use is for competion use only...not for hucking or freeriding. I know you guys have to compromise because the guy that straps on a "race" fork will probably go out and "huck" too.
As for Ti Springs, geez that really drives up the cost of a fork. Do they have the same performance benefits and durability of a steel spring? And how much of a weight difference are we talking by going that route? jeremy wasn't too thrilled with the Ti Spring on his Romic last year and went back to a Steel coil and was much happier.
The person who buys the fork knows the intended use is for competion use only...not for hucking or freeriding. I know you guys have to compromise because the guy that straps on a "race" fork will probably go out and "huck" too.
As for Ti Springs, geez that really drives up the cost of a fork. Do they have the same performance benefits and durability of a steel spring? And how much of a weight difference are we talking by going that route? jeremy wasn't too thrilled with the Ti Spring on his Romic last year and went back to a Steel coil and was much happier.
yeah the Shiver could be refined into a competitive design if they wanted to. I would dispute the benefits of a hex axle over a properly fastened axle, but more bushings as mentioned would definitly increase stiffness. Also if you look at the WBs, the crowns and dropouts have alot of excess material removed. Use a low oil volume system like the 888, optimize the spring design (because you can make springs unecessarily heavy), add air assist....
like bizutch i love the Shiver too, i just wish they did more with it.
like bizutch i love the Shiver too, i just wish they did more with it.
Butch,
I doubt the whole "intended for race only, no warranty" would fly... When I make that comparison to the moto market where you pay a whole hell of a lot more and your warranty is very limited and specific, look at the flak I get.
As for Ti springs, from my limited understanding on the properties of Ti, it really isn't an ideal spring material. Yes, it is lighter, but from what I understand, you will need to replace springs a lot more often than a steel spring. And they will lighten your wallet up quite a bit too...
Luc,
No comment...
Brian
I doubt the whole "intended for race only, no warranty" would fly... When I make that comparison to the moto market where you pay a whole hell of a lot more and your warranty is very limited and specific, look at the flak I get.
As for Ti springs, from my limited understanding on the properties of Ti, it really isn't an ideal spring material. Yes, it is lighter, but from what I understand, you will need to replace springs a lot more often than a steel spring. And they will lighten your wallet up quite a bit too...
Luc,
No comment...
Brian
Aw shucks. You guys coming out with a fox killer?Brian Peterson said:
neaky: My main men at my LBS have been riding lefty forks for quite a while so I've gotten to play around on them quite a bit. They are just stupid stiff by any standards, wierd design or not. So I've been wondering what could be done with a double lefty....let's call it an ambidextry. That would have to be the stiffest freakin fork ever. The lefty can't twist because it's not allowed to by design...and it doesn't. Seems like doubling up would get rid of the twisty twist that plagues the inverted designs. I haven't seen enough the internals of leftys to know how they do it but it seems like whatever they do could be done in two legs.
i luv people who just ride.
Ok I could be all wrong on this but I heard Tim Flooks say (on the Fundamentals DVD)a Ti lasts longer because it doesnt rust and you get a lifetime garantee.
When Manitou had the first images up of the Dorado MRD the lighting on the fork in the pictures made the fork look like it had a keyway in the crowns and a ridge in the fork (sort of like a torx-lock system for the crown/upper interface). When we asked the Manitou tech guy about it at the trade show in October '03 he laughed at me. Bloody laughed. Anyway, he said doing something like that would make the fork too stiff and cause the keyway to just break off in the event of a crash. So that got me to thinking, what if the whole interface area was splined and had a lip at the lowest line to keep riders/mechanics from putting the fork too low. Seems like that would keep the fork from twisting in a crash and minimize the possibility of just one keyway from breaking off. I'd imagine this would cost a bit to machine 6 - 100 teeth into the uppers of a fork, but it seems feasible to me. Any ideas on this, machine guys or Brian?
Jeremy's Ti spring rode good for about a month and a half..after that it got noticibly softer. I could even tell when he sat on it.Kevin said:
maybe he just had one that wasn't high quality stuff
You could do it and it wouldn't be prohibitively expensive. I'm not sure if it would be worth it, but it could be done.James | Go-Ride said:
IMO, a right side up fork corners better than a inverted fork. That is me comparing my shiver to my boxxer. The boxxer just holds a line better thru a turn. The shiver kills in every other aspect though.
I don't see an inverted design being viable at the 8# level. Sure, it's the only way to go for MX, but they don't value weight as much as we do.
about the splined idea, the new WB forks have a knurled interface dont they?
No, no Skinflute.bizutch said:
It was too soft to begin with.
It had nothing at all to do with it being Ti.
It was a 350 and I needed a 450, and Romic never had anymore 450's in stock, I so rode a steel 450 which worked well. That said, I can't see me ever paying a bunch more for Ti springs again. You might as well just drop a pound off your ass instead.
Good point there!Jeremy R said:
I agree with the corning of a regular fork vs. something like a shiver or other inverted fork. But like said the feel and such of the shiver owns a regular fork.
I dunno how light Ti springs would help the shiver out, maybe 1/4 of a pound to half a pound at the most? The integrated stems probably aren't the lightest either but I have never found the weight of them.
Totally. That's the only reason I got an 888 to replace a white brothers. That extra span of material helps me thinks. Shivers are so righteous going straight and plowing but it's the wobbly steering that kills it. My WB wasn't quite as twisty, but more so than a boxxer or an 888......or a slider......buildyourown said:
Zedro: I was under the impression that the knurling was on the uppers to keep them from twisting in the crowns. My old wb fork that had the wimpier crowns would twist every so often. It would happen when I'd see money laying in the middle of a trail and have to get my face in for a closer look and let the bike go play on it's own.
Which brings me back to my lefty question........anybody know how they do that? James' idea sounds like it's along the same lines.
Orven, you're the ridingest.........
Thats not entirely true..Jeremy R said:
The weight on your body is a much smaller factor on the ride then the weight on your bike.
A lighter spring on your bike will mean a lower center of gravity for starters.
Then there's the handling factor when pulling your bike up and down.
Also the weight of the bike will determin how fast it will accelerate and how quick it will slow down for a corner, two things that will definitly make you faster in the end.
Saving weight is pretty expensive and I think it only really pays of if you go the whole 9 yards meaning you should save weight on as much as you can.
It also means to stay in shape and all, maybee even get some lighter DH gear. I found FOX to be particularly heavy. The 180° shorts were like twice the weight of the shorts I have now.
Wether its worth the money is another question. I think it all depends on your budget and if YOU think its worth it.
I think a light DH bike has a huge advantage over a heavy one but the next guy might prefer his bike burly and a little more heavy.
too right :nuts:anarchyUK said: