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Downwillers request to manufacturers....

D

dw

Wiffle Ball ninja
Sep 10, 2001
2,943
0
MV
MDJ said:
And at $6,500 a pop, there never will be. My $6k is going to a moto this year.

I can't possibly justify a $6k DH bike to my wife, but if I say I'm going to to buy a moto for $6k, she'll just ask what color I'm getting?

I know, it's the whole economies of scale-volume-chicken and egg thingy. I just think there are huge inefficiencies in the bike world, and they need to get sorted out to bring the prices back to reasonable levels.
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No problem, all you need to do is accept that your DH bike frame and all components will be built from MIG welded straight gage aluminum tubing and castings instead of forgings or nice CNC bits. You can also accept the 55 lb ish complete bike weight that will come with it. That should reach your price and volume goals no problem.

As someone who works in both the cycling and MX / motorcycle industries actively, I think that the MX industry could learn a lot more from the cycling industry than the other way around. Cycling companies are the ones pushing manufacturers to develop lighter, stronger, and more cost effective products, and therefore the manufacturing technology to support it.

I have no problem spending my $$ on an MX bike or a DH bike, they both cost exactly what they need to based on manufacturing costs, complexity, and qty..

Dave
 
P

Pbody

Monkey
Oct 30, 2003
341
0
dw said:
No problem, all you need to do is accept that your DH bike frame and all components will be built from MIG welded straight gage aluminum tubing and castings instead of forgings or nice CNC bits. You can also accept the 55 lb ish complete bike weight that will come with it. That should reach your price and volume goals no problem.

As someone who works in both the cycling and MX / motorcycle industries actively, I think that the MX industry could learn a lot more from the cycling industry than the other way around. Cycling companies are the ones pushing manufacturers to develop lighter, stronger, and more cost effective products, and therefore the manufacturing technology to support it.

I have no problem spending my $$ on an MX bike or a DH bike, they both cost exactly what they need to based on manufacturing costs, complexity, and qty..

Dave
Click to expand...
Point made. So now I am curious and I think you are a perfect person to ask . . . . What do you think is necessary to help grow this support? And when I'm asking I'm thinking in relative to manufacturing, not marketing, promotions, etc.
 
W

WBC

Monkey
Aug 8, 2003
578
1
PNW
I think that many bikes are simply greatly over-engineered for the majority of people out there. What we need is what the Kumicho Type R was a couple years ago, but maybe with a smarter build (read: no Swinger). I'm a pretty well developed rider, and I could right now rally the piss out of one of those Kumichos 99% as hard as I could my Sundays I've owned. Difference is, if I bought the Kumicho, I'd have to work half as many hours, so I could ride twice as much, and then with my new skills, I could rally that ****er twice or three times as hard as I can on my $6000 pretty boy bike.

We need simple frame construction, frames with tough bearings and axles, smart builds, and good geometry. Bikes could weigh 42-44 lbs, would cost 2grand, and would serve a large majority of riders just great and allow them the time to get their shred on, since they won't be workin so goddamn long to afford em!
 
Patan-DH

Patan-DH

Monkey
Jun 9, 2007
458
0
Patagonia
To DW:

The LG1 chainguide to cost a rasonable amount and not the same as a stylo crankset, a x9 rear derailleur, ajuicy 7 brake.... even if it involves being produced in taiwan......

Why a cnc'd 90grams of alloy and two injected plastics and a roller would cost 150bucks......??????
 
Patan-DH

Patan-DH

Monkey
Jun 9, 2007
458
0
Patagonia
I want to let eveybody know that my thread was supposed to be about new products or variations of products that exist and that i (or we) would like to buy.......

Some people are taking it to a different aspect of disccussion that was not the intented by me.
Cheers.

Unsponsored pinner.
 
K

klunky

Turbo Monkey
Oct 17, 2003
1,078
6
Scotland
Patan-DH said:
To DW:

The LG1 chainguide to cost a rasonable amount and not the same as a stylo crankset, a x9 rear derailleur, ajuicy 7 brake.... even if it involves being produced in taiwan......

Why a cnc'd 90grams of alloy and two injected plastics and a roller would cost 150bucks......??????
Click to expand...
I think that E-13 chain guides are made in the USA....
 
Demomonkey

Demomonkey

Monkey
Apr 27, 2005
857
0
Auckland New Zealand
©2001;2828644 said:
GOOD NEWS! the industry hears you and has responded!

http://littermag.com/2008/news/newsarticle.php?newsID=1087
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Bwaahahaha! Owned! Guess us internet dwellers are just moaning bitches.

But seriously, I think requests like asking for certain tyres or bars to be available or made is reasonable.

Asking for the industry to reduce prices while putting out stronger and lighter kit is laughable. A lightweight 7 speed internally geared hub?? Would you like to pay nearly nothing for that too sir? Shall I bend over some more? I think you can stick it in a little further.
 
Heath Sherratt

Heath Sherratt

Turbo Monkey
Jun 17, 2004
1,871
0
In a healthy tension
The CNT DH bars are in low rise...
XTR cranks with an 80mm spindle. Frames with full housing in mind for the drive train.
Dupont's Power Chords for less than $80
Nitrogen damped suspension spring
More open communication within manufacturers for compatibility. Especially amongst teams.
Lower priced Dh rigs for beginners-heavy-who cares just so kids can "afford" them. Hardtails only go so far.
 
C

ChrisKring

Turbo Monkey
Jan 30, 2002
2,399
6
Grand Haven, MI
Patan-DH said:
To DW:

The LG1 chainguide to cost a rasonable amount and not the same as a stylo crankset, a x9 rear derailleur, ajuicy 7 brake.... even if it involves being produced in taiwan......

Why a cnc'd 90grams of alloy and two injected plastics and a roller would cost 150bucks......??????
Click to expand...
I am taking an educated guess that the plastic injection tools (2, I think) would be close to $100k of up front investment. That's pennies per part when you are making a million barbie dolls but it is a lot of money per part when you only sell a couple thousand parts, best case.

Furthermore, DW and company need to eat. They can't develop ideas for free. They also can't answer tech questions on RM if they need to go to their night job flipping burgers at mcdonalds so that they could afford to sell parts for less. Or how about the amount of $$$ that the race promoters shake him down for so that he can set up a tent at the races to answer racer's questions? It all cost money.

Again, it's all a volume issue. At the end of the day, I am glad that I haven't dropped my chain during a race since Mount Snow in 2001 when I had to stop and yank it out of the bent up aluminium turd on my old DHi. That is why I don't think his pricing is out of line.

Oh yeah, he also has to be able to pay for that new computer with watercooling that will enable the analysis for his next creation. Pictures please, with the next creation on the monitor ;)
 
D

davep

Turbo Monkey
Jan 7, 2005
3,276
0
seattle
Racerx7734 said:
9. More Ti spring sizes for riders over 220
10. A Marzocchi 888 with Air in one leg and Coil in the other, best of both worlds. (see 07 66 RC2X as an example, NOT exact, I know)
11. The simplicity of the 2001 Monster T without the weight gain, just Rebound, Compression, Oil, Coils................no 90 page book to read to set your fork.
12. More 9" bikes.........why not?
13. Plastic MOTO style tire levers for DH tires. The metal scratch the rim and create more pinched tubes during instal in my opinion. The small blue PARK ones are great.......but to small.

Some of this stuff may be out already and I may just be an ASS in Reno........ok I'm an ass anyway.....but so?
Click to expand...
9 a lower leverage bike would solve this problem. 550 ti springs are widely available. I am 190 +- and have never needed a spring more than 400 on a DH bike (currently run a 350).
10 both the RC3x and WC this year are your answer
11 see 10. the RC3X has fewer adjustments than the prior RC2X
12 see #9 above. In general more travel is just not needed and offers many downsides, like exagerated chasis movement and high leverages all around
13 ice toolz makes a screwdriver handle moto style lever that is coated. http://www.windwave.co.uk/windwave/64D1.html?id=cYeZrg7c
 
H

his dudeness

Chimp
Feb 13, 2008
2
0
This is officially the lamest thread of the day... Stop complaining about your bikes, you're the idiots who bought them.

Just ride, honestly that should be the only thing that matters.
 
toodles

toodles

ridiculously corgi proportioned
Aug 24, 2004
5,508
4,760
Australia
his dudeness said:
This is officially the lamest thread of the day... Stop complaining about your bikes, you're the idiots who bought them.

Just ride, honestly that should be the only thing that matters.
Click to expand...
:plthumbsdown:

Are you saying manufacturers wouldn't like to hear feedback from customers? Sure a lot of it might be stupid, but in between the whines about colour, pricing and basic physics - some of the feedback might actually be useful.
 
SPINTECK

SPINTECK

Turbo Monkey
Oct 16, 2005
1,370
0
abc
his dudeness said:
This is officially the lamest thread of the day... Stop complaining about your bikes, you're the idiots who bought them.

Just ride, honestly that should be the only thing that matters.
Click to expand...
Got a point, but people suggesting answers to questions is what drives evolution, especially in oursport.




Adjustable chainstay length dropouts!!!
Glow in the dark stickers:)
 
D

dw

Wiffle Ball ninja
Sep 10, 2001
2,943
0
MV
Patan-DH said:
To DW:

The LG1 chainguide to cost a rasonable amount and not the same as a stylo crankset, a x9 rear derailleur, ajuicy 7 brake.... even if it involves being produced in taiwan......

Why a cnc'd 90grams of alloy and two injected plastics and a roller would cost 150bucks......??????
Click to expand...
I think that you are completely underestimating the cost of building an LG1 and completely overestimating the cost of building a derailleur or set of cranks. The LG1 molds cost more than crank molds by a good deal. The LG1 materials are expensive, and the entire product is built right here in the USA. We mill run all of our own metals for backplates to meet our quality standards. We use our own proprietary thermoplastic blends for sliders and superchargers. We machine most of, and assemble all of our products in house, in the USA. Also, I'd guess that there are on the order of 20-50X more units of the products that you mentioned built than LG1s every year (depending on the product). Of course, the old tradeoff applies. Strength, Cost, and Weight, pick two. I promise you that your options are about to increase.
 
D

dw

Wiffle Ball ninja
Sep 10, 2001
2,943
0
MV
ChrisKring said:
I am taken an educated guess that the plastic injection tools (2 I think) would be close to $100k up front investment. That pennies per part when you making a million barbie dolls but it is a lot of money per part when you only sell a couple thousand best case.

Furthermore, DW and company need to eat. They can't develop ideas for free. They also can't answer tech questions on RM if they need to go to their night job flipping burgers at mcdonalds so that they could afford to sell them for less. Or how about the amount of $$$ that the race promoters shake him down so that he can set up a tent at the races to answer racers question? It all cost money.

Again, it's all a volume issue. At the end of the day, I am glad I haven't dropped my chain during a race since Mount Snow in 2001 when I had to stop and yank it out of the bent up aluminium turd on my old DHi. That is why I don't think his pricing is out of line.

Oh yeah, he also has to be able to pay for that new computer with watercooling that will enable the analysis for his next creation. Pictures please, with the next creation on the monitor ;)
Click to expand...
You're right on point as usual Chris. You better step back and stop making so much sense!

Here's a shot of my workstation. Liquid cooling, multi processors, arrayed drives and loads of RAM. It eats nonlinear FEA for breakfast.
 

Attachments

Polandspring88

Polandspring88

Superman
Mar 31, 2004
3,066
7
Broomfield, CO
dw said:
You're right on point as usual Chris. You better step back and stop making so much sense!

Here's a shot of my workstation. Liquid cooling, multi processors, arrayed drives and loads of RAM. It eats nonlinear FEA for breakfast.
Click to expand...
Nerd.

<<< Jealous. What program are you running for FEA?
 
Jonas

Jonas

Monkey
Feb 11, 2004
141
0
East Coast Represent!
dw said:
You're right on point as usual Chris. You better step back and stop making so much sense!

Here's a shot of my workstation. Liquid cooling, multi processors, arrayed drives and loads of RAM. It eats nonlinear FEA for breakfast.
Click to expand...
When the hell did you get that thing, Dave?
Last time I saw your machine it was built into your desk and had a chrome plated 18" round Mopar big block air filter bolted to the side of it.
Mopar.jpg

Sorry everyone. Off topic.
As you were......
 
Racerx7734

Racerx7734

Monkey
Mar 4, 2002
616
0
Hostile Sausage
davep said:
9 a lower leverage bike would solve this problem. 550 ti springs are widely available. I am 190 +- and have never needed a spring more than 400 on a DH bike (currently run a 350).
10 both the RC3x and WC this year are your answer
11 see 10. the RC3X has fewer adjustments than the prior RC2X
12 see #9 above. In general more travel is just not needed and offers many downsides, like exagerated chasis movement and high leverages all around
13 ice toolz makes a screwdriver handle moto style lever that is coated. http://www.windwave.co.uk/windwave/64D1.html?id=cYeZrg7c
Click to expand...
Thanks.
The 08 RC3x doesn not have "adjustable, via a pump, Air." I have one on my V10 right now and came off of a RC2X. My bad, I should have been clearer on that. You are right about the fewer adjustments though.
 
jonKranked

jonKranked

Detective Dookie
Nov 10, 2005
85,936
24,507
media blackout
ChrisKring said:
Thanks for the clarification. I haven't ever owned a barbie doll so I don't know. Cast urethane or silicone? Next time I'll use GI Joe, power ranger or transformers for an example
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sorry, I work in the toy industry so I don't advocate the propagation of incorrect information in regards to my industry.


And by the way, cast urethane ... silicone... both still wrong.
 
Kntr

Kntr

Turbo Monkey
Jan 25, 2003
7,526
21
Montana
I want Avalanche to make a standard fork.

I also want Knolly to get the V-tach frame around 10-11 lbs.
 
OGRipper

OGRipper

back alley ripper
Feb 3, 2004
10,653
1,128
NORCAL is the hizzle
I want manufacturers to get real and start offering the Sam Hill Skills Upgrade with every new DH bike. 'Til then I'm pretty stoked on the state of things and the promise of more to come.
 
B

banj

Monkey
Apr 3, 2002
379
0
Ottawa, Ontario
I want manufacturers to stop whining everytime someone asks for something different than what's already being offered. Sure some of the requests are over the top but that's no reason for the cryfest that follows. Just filter the good ideas/requests from the bad ones and get on with it.
 
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